[cureav]

If you are familiar with NPD, I'm sure you've heard about this book.
My goal is not to recommend or advertise it, I haven't read it (just read a few reviews), I just wanted to ask you - anyone who read it, to please explain me this book title.
Something tells me that it has something to do with narcissistic mirroring in others, searching for reflection...
Someone knows better?
Thanks a lot!

[waiting4]

I said this once in another thread on this forum to explain as briefly as possible what it feels like to be an NPD..based on my experience being raised by one, and having loved two others. It met with a positive response from two people I highly respect in this forum.

"Who am I? I'm the mirror. I have always been. مرآة Mirat...the mirror.

The problem being, of course, that I am reflective...only. Within the mirror is glass...fragile, and sharp."

If the book is about NPD, I'd guess this would do for an explanation of title.

[shakespeare47]

I wonder if it means you can see what's going on around you, but you can't interact with the real people who are just out of reach...

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

I wonder if it means you can see what's going on around you, but you can't interact with the real people who are just out of reach...

I don't think you can't interact...rather that for other people, for nons, interaction is meaningful, emotionally tangible.

With a mirror, and most N's, it's relatively meaningless...just a refracted view.

That any interaction occurs at all has more to do with those looking in, then those reflecting out.

[waiting4]

That wasn't a slam btw...and anyone who knows me, knows it wasn't. It was...acknowledgement. I don't think people with NPD get enough credit for dealing with one of the most complicated and complex disorders ever, IMO.

Once one realizes what an N' has done (created) to cope at such a young age--for most, starting at about 5years old--....with abuse, or over compensation or extreme neglect (btw, that's the quiet damnation most don't speak of---the birthplace of the fragile narcissist and the one not as often seen as the malignant narcissist, yet no less hurt nor hurtful), they've still, for the most part, avoided psychosis (except in times of tremendous stress).

If a person can be objective and 'pay attention', one can, nevertheless, only get a glimpse of who someone with NPD is, and how survival has cost them so much more than, in the long run, they ever took from their........sources.

And the payment needs done every day....every hour...every moment. Even when they're alone.

If that isn't hell....I'm not sure I understand the definition.

[Mattmx]

I haven't read the book, but the title to me seems to be a metaphor for "trapped in the mirror" aka focusing on yourself and your image and charisma as people do while standing at the mirror. From what I understand, that's a narcissists life. Trapped in their image and worth.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by waiting4

Once one realizes what an N' has done (created) to cope at such a young age--for most, starting at about 5years old--....with abuse, or over compensation or extreme neglect (btw, that's the quiet damnation most don't speak of---the birthplace of the fragile narcissist and the one not as often seen as the malignant narcissist, yet no less hurt nor hurtful), they've still, for the most part, avoided psychosis (except in times of tremendous stress).

If a person can be objective and 'pay attention', one can, nevertheless, only get a glimpse of who someone with NPD is, and how survival has cost them so much more than, in the long run, they ever took from their........sources.

And the payment needs done every day....every hour...every moment. Even when they're alone.

If that isn't hell....I'm not sure I understand the definition.

Thanks for that. I can relate. I had some pretty traumatic experiences before I was 5.... I don't remember anything except a few major incidences that stick out... How many people have any memories of things that occurred before they were 5? That's what I think is most terrible.. a child could have any number of traumatic experience before they were 5, and no one, including the child itself would even realize it (except that perpetrators, and they aren't likely to admit to it) because memories are unlikely to have formed. I suspect that's why some children who are adopted from orphanages can have so many problems. I know of 2 families that adopted children who were 5 or older, and it was just horrific. They child literally could not accept the love they were shown.
I have pieced together what my life must have been like. My father was stationed in Germany after being drafted, and we were there with him. It sounds like he drank a lot. My mom was constantly angry at him. I do have memories of them fighting, of my dad actually beating her. And that happened after I was 5 and when we were living back in the states. I have memories of my mother taking her anger out on me and my brothers and sisters, for no reason other than her extreme frustration. I suspect it was even worse when we were in Germany, and I was between the ages of 1 and 5. My brother was born when I was almost 3, so I was the only one she could take out her frustrations on for many years.

There have been times when my life has been absolute hell.... and it is extremely hard not to blame myself. Those around me certainly blamed me... there was a time in my 20's when I was completely out of control at times with my behavior. I tried to control everything around me.... I was in a position of authority at work, and I loved the fact that people had to do what I told them. I was involved in a church, and tried to take over a Sunday school class.

It is tough being a person with some NPD traits. We get to deal with the effects of a personality disorder we didn't create. We get to take responsibility for what happens when we are mistreated as children. GOD DAMN... It's like we are severely damaged and then forced to take responsibility for the fragile ego that others have created for us. If that isn't a form of hell, I'm not sure what is.

There are times I get a glimpse of who I am underneath all this.... and, I think I like him.

[Notoriousglo]

Shakespeare...that's cool you think you got a glimpse of who you are and you like him. I feel like I'm not sure how to find myself? Not to be rude, but being a narcissist, you would obviously like the person you think you are, or no? Anyways, wish I could see myself...I would work harder to get it the permanent front.

[shakespeare47]

LOL. There is always the chance I am deluding myself...

and it's not like my goal is to figure out who I am. My goal is just to get better (whatever that means).

[shakespeare47]

I don't know if I could read the book. It's written for people who have/had narcissistic parents.

[RecklessforGod]

Originally Posted by waiting4

I said this once in another thread on this forum to explain as briefly as possible what it feels like to be an NPD..based on my experience being raised by one, and having loved two others. It met with a positive response from two people I highly respect in this forum.

"Who am I? I'm the mirror. I have always been. مرآة Mirat...the mirror.

The problem being, of course, that I am reflective...only. Within the mirror is glass...fragile, and sharp."

If the book is about NPD, I'd guess this would do for an explanation of title.

You said perfectly and eloquently what I've been feeling most of my life.

[Walkingaround]

I have to agree with that explanation of that title. You'r whole existence is based on mirrowing. Without it, you crumble and fall. Hard.. Painfully, seeking the mirrow witch you can let go. See the reflection that allows you to breathe again, act and live.

[Notoriousglo]

So I told my new therapist I wanted to see my feelings in her and have her reflect them back to me and watch her deal with them. Is that different? Do borderlines not do the "mirroring" thing?

[Notoriousglo]

In other words, I can't deal with people unless they feel the same thing. I know that's absurd. But, does the narc do this, too?

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by euphy

So I told my new therapist I wanted to see my feelings in her and have her reflect them back to me and watch her deal with them. Is that different? Do borderlines not do the "mirroring" thing?

I'm BPD and I don't 'mirror' in the way NPD's mirror. Mine is more empathic ... as if I'm trying to see what another person feels so I can match it...almost like the old thing where if your partner or new date raises his glass to drink and you do the same without even thinking about it. It's a bonding thing, when BPD's do it.

NPD's, on the other hand are looking for a kind of guidance, not bonding. The interesting thing, of course, is how well BPD's and NPD's will mesh emotionally--for awhile. We both adapt to each others needs, until the NPD gets bored of us, which is inevitable...as the BPD will always require much more emotionally than the NPD is able or willing to give.

Of course, any discussion of this will be generalized as all NPD's (and BPD's for that matter) are individuals, and to catagorize them is unfair and short sighted. But I hope this helps a little in the understanding.

[Walkingaround]

No. Narcissit mirrow themselfs, who they want to be and whatkind they want to be. We basicly define who we are trough others. We want them to see us in certain way, and if they do, we admire ourselfs in that reflaction. We dont want to see our own feelings through others, we want to see feelings that are for us in a other person. Any kinda feeling will do, as long as its feeling. Love, hate, anger, admariaton. Etc. We can interact with others without feeling ourself anything. Basicly and short way to say; We want us to be seen as rhe way we dream and want to be, and we are willing to go very far to get it.

[cureav]

Thank you all for your replies.
When I realize that I got myself into the "excessively mirroring" mode with another person, and it feels like suffocating with small questions and hyper-sensibility to every little thing (facial expression, sound, tone of laughter, where the person is looking, desperately trying to keep the person in the conversation...), I manage to SHUT my Ego DOWN; somehow, I manage just to STOP that constant hyper-vigilance and let the other person take spontaneity, I give myself to the art of being vulnerable and let myself feel this fear of abandonment and loose of control over the communication.

Still I wonder, how other people feel their own self-awareness and self-value without the need of mirroring. I admire to that.

[shakespeare47]

What I see myself doing at times, is creating problems so people around me have to deal with certain problems or issues. Then I can actually watch to see how "normal" people react to certain issues and problems. Can anyone else relate?

@euphy.. is that what you see yourself doing?

[Notoriousglo]

Shakespeare...kind of...it sounds very similar. Kind of like...I want to see my emotions in someone else, but that never happens, because I'm supposed to know that people are different from me in how they feel. Like, sometimes if someone makes me feel good, like a narc can usually do at a superficial level, I'll hang around to try to feel what they are, but if I feel something negative, I'll immediately turn that off. I don't have my "own" ability to regulate my feelings...so yeah I'm trying to get it from other people...confusing.

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

What I see myself doing at times, is creating problems so people around me have to deal with certain problems or issues. Then I can actually watch to se how "normal" people react to certain issues and problems. Can anyone else relate?

@euphy.. is that what you see yourself doing?

My ex did that all the time, unfortuneatly I was not aware of it, even as he told me once 'I like to get reactions from people and I'll do things deliberately just to see how they'll react'....I thought it was more a kind of manipulation, and to a point it was....but eventually, I realized it was also his way to gauge his emotional responses. He would then parrot them back depending on the situation.

It makes me sad for him now, at the time I thought he was mean as hell. He could be, of course, but nothing was done without a reason, even if he couldn't articulate it, nor even consciously see he was doing it.

[shakespeare47]

I don't know what to think about it anymore. It's just something that I do, that can be harmful, so I've made it a point to find other ways to figure out how to act....
I mostly did it with my T... and it was something of a revelation when I figured out why I was doing it. It was somewhat unconscious on my part.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by waiting4

My ex did that all the time, unfortuneatly I was not aware of it, even as he told me once 'I like to get reactions from people and I'll do things deliberately just to see how they'll react'....I thought it was more a kind of manipulation, and to a point it was....but eventually, I realized it was also his way to gauge his emotional responses. He would then parrot them back depending on the situation.

It makes me sad for him now, at the time I thought he was mean as hell. He could be, of course, but nothing was done without a reason, even if he couldn't articulate it, nor even consciously see he was doing it.

What an insightful thread. I've been working towards a possible reuniting of sorts with my NPD sister, 7 years older than me and someone I looked up to from earliest childhood, but who toyed with my affection for years. I suppose I was way too convenient an outlet for her to gaslight. She eventually got so good at it that I couldn't be around her anymore.

To be able to understand more objectively though, what it is she's really trying to do, as opposed to having only feeling toyed with to focus on, could I think go a long way towards my being able to deal with that aspect of her behavior.

I hadn't looked at it in quite those terms.

[shakespeare47]

If I understand it correctly, gaslighting is actually abuse. It's done with forethought. Apparently narcissists are well-known for using this tactic.

Gaslighting or gas-lighting[1] is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.[2] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

I would definitely stay away from anyone who performed such an act on me.

[cureav]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

What I see myself doing at times, is creating problems so people around me have to deal with certain problems or issues. Then I can actually watch to see how "normal" people react to certain issues and problems. Can anyone else relate?

I'm sorry to say this, but I don't like that behavior of creating problems. Its wasting others time and energy, and also you can get a clue of a person who is a giver and people pleaser, so you can rely on him when ever you need or feel low. I was a people pleaser, but now I have a radar for people like you. (nardar dot com)
Sorry if I misunderstood or labeled you falsely.
Please, try to get to the bottom of the reasoning why are you creating problems. Think of what "normal" is for someone else. Think of where would we get if everyone around would only creating a problems.

Also, I hate people who desperately need to evoke a stronger emotional reaction in others. This also drains energy unnecessarily.

One thing in that is in common for all this, is that a person who is creating these problematic situations and evoking strong emotional responses, in fact, is enjoying when someone else is feeling bad, has troubles and problems, so the first person could feel better seeing that there is someone else in worse position than him. That's a kind of a relief that someone suffers more than him.

Of course gaslighting is abuse. Currently I am experiencing it at workplace, but there are some tools for it on the internet.

[shakespeare47]

@cureav
I'm certainly not recommending it or justifying my behavior.... see my post number 21.

But, to be clear... I'm not talking about gaslighting. It wasn't intentional on my part.. and I wasn't trying to make anyone doubt their sanity. I've been a victim of gaslighting...

I think I see where the confusion came from. I mentioned my behavior.. then I mentioned gaslighting. I was contrasting the 2 things.. not comparing them. I thought I was trying to be clear all along that what I did was not gaslighting.. but, I can see where the issue got confused in my posts.

Are you also a sufferer of NPD? It's a toubling disorder, isn't it? The self-loathing is quite hard to deal with.

and again.. I reiterate.. I'd recommend staying away from anyone who uses gaslighting... there is no good resolution that I can see (if you attempt to confront the abuser). Just get away, and tell your friends what you've experienced... or do whatever you need to do to ground yourself and keep yourself sane.