"Trapped in the Mirror", book title meaning?

I recommend doing just that, finding out more about it, and learning the objectivity necessary to understand why she (and most NPD's) do what she does. It doesn't excuse bad behaviour, of course....nothing excuses bad behaviour, especially if it's consistently repeated. But in the case of NPD's, it is not something they have chosen to do...it is a defense mechanism, and much easier to understand, when viewed that way.

The hurt for the non, may still be there, even after all that...but the mitigation of understanding from a point of view unhindered by emotion cannot be stressed enough as a true value, both to the non and to the NPD involved.

I wish you luck and patience....you'll have need of both. I trust, after your post, you have already grasped 'genuine interest'. To acquire the latter two, genuine interest is all you need.

Take care....

While I've become acutely aware of the ways in which intentional gaslighting actually occurs (one former therapist of mine also called it "crazymaking" .. not sure if that's a technical term), it would still be nearly impossible for me to "stay away from anyone who performed such an act". That said, I do think there are some regional differences; living in NYC as I do, there is always more than a preponderance of highly ambitious and success-driven narcissists in my midst. I can't imagine that many a rural location would be as densely populated by narcissists, per capita.

For me it's just something I need to be on the lookout for, to maintain some level of personal sanity, due to having endured a whole lot of battle fatigue from it already. It is a very double-edged sword though; I am wholly tuned in to the behaviors, because of my upbringing, and can easily see when someone is navigating my demeanor for signs of vulnerability--which makes it exhausting work to then monitor their monitoring. But it certainly beats what happens otherwise, the incessant abuse of those vulnerabilities once located. I think this is where the energy vampire idea comes in to play, because you're either being drained through your own necessary vigilance against attacks, or you're being run ragged by the attacks themselves.

When I have lived in other parts of the country I have experienced a better ability to surround myself with fewer such determined narcissists, which has enabled me to better minimize any negative effects of dealing with just those few. Where I live now though, it's a constant and unavoidable onslaught. I just saw something about NYC being voted the unhappiest city in the country, and I can't say as I'm surprised.. but the people who most romanticize this place (either up close or from a distance) are those for whom ambition and competition are primary personal factors, and I don't share those qualities in the same way.

Is it just me or are you trying to make someone feel bad for having a problem they may or may not be in control of? You are acting righteous and no personality disordered individual is going to feel bad because you hate what they do.

I guess I was triggered by these words, behaviors that I experienced earlier, without knowledge of them. Sorry for my temper. You've detected it well.
Apologizes

I really don't want to dive into the middle of this quagmire, between what is said, how it is perceived...the implied vs the inferred, but, that said, I simply would like to point out....again....that NO person with NPD can be pigeon holed. Period. They are all as diverse as anyone else with a PD. There is no lump category, and no lump prevention, nor cure.

In my experience, for what little it's worth to others and the great amount it is worth to myself and my own survival/sanity.....NPD's don't deliberately gaslight. It is a learned response. It's like...breathing....no, better yet...it's like choosing direction.

You need to go a place, a place you are familiar with. This time, there might be a detour, but you can still find the place of which you search because you've been there so many times before. You know the foliage, you know the street signs, you remember the dog on the corner given to chase, the woman at the bus stop who always looks your way, the man who nearly always sneers at you as you move past....you choose which route will serve you best and you choose them, all without pretense, planning, intricate use of consideration... all to get to the destination you know so well. It's learned, and now it's rote.

If you lose your way, if the detour doesn't pan out, well, you're disappointed. But there's always next time. That the eventual destination is usually a place you don't really want to be, is always less than satisfying, ultimately emptying, and that you are gleaned with the knowledge (even at the beginning of the trip) that you will always have to start all over again...is a frustration the worst navigator on the planet cannot really understand.

This is totally simplistic, but also clearly the way NPD's (for the most part) react to perceived incoming 'threat' or incoming 'attention'. Remember, they've learned this way of being...way of protecting themselves, often from the time most of us are learning to tie our shoes (for those of us old enough to remember that struggle), ride a bike...avoid grandma's ribbon candy.

They have learned to survive emotional abuse using this method. This is NOT a defense mechanism created by stupid people...and I believe there is a high correlation of certain PD's to intelligence.

That they function so well, according to non's who observe them, is amazing. That they really don't function well at all, and most people don't bother to observe THAT....is sad....for the NPD.

Anyway...as you were... *smiles*

^What? How dare you badmouth ribbon candy!

I use the word intentionally in my own description mostly to make an indication that I don't assume someone is gaslighting only based on how I feel, but because I can tell there is a process in place, for them.

However, my own experience of gaslighting by those with NPD does reveal evidence of pre-meditative discernment, for instance my sister doesn't only refrain from gaslighting those she's discovered it doesn't work on, but also those people she wants something from, such as those who are very important on the social food chain. She'd never gaslight any high society friends, from whom a potentially bad reaction could cost her a rung on the social ladder. It's a process she reserves solely for those whose affection she has come to consider either expendable or unnecessary to nurture. But there are surely differences from person to person.

Certainly in the moment, I think there is a ton of kneejerk or autopilot reaction involved in the process, especially while around people with whom it has already become second nature. And while I'm not a gaslighter, I'm certainly familiar with reacting on autopilot..

Working towards better understanding how it happens is the only way I know of that I might better understand my own role in it, and I know that's all I can change in the situation.

On a side note, I love ribbon candy! Fruitcake though, not so much.

LOL@ ribbon candy!!! I'm actually soooo happy people at least know what it is!!!

hehe sorry, off topic. Btw...I loathe the stuff. pffft

LOL. I remember it well. It does look better than it tastes.

uhm... what am I missing now? U do realize your in NPD forum, right?
Where users are most likely suffering from NPD or are intrested of PD or have been involved with NPD.

I sometimnes have periods when;
I create bronblems. I hurt people, I manipulate, I create feelings, I gas-light.
I do that all, but i do it , becouse i have to. Becouse i must. Becouse i CANNOT live other way. Becouse if i dont, everything breakes apart. Everything in me comes in vain, everything i am, becomes so painfull, so hard to stand, so hurtfull that i lose my ability to live. I try to breathe, but it seems theres no air. I try to stand, but my legs are week and cant hold me up. I try to speak, but voice inside my trhought is burning, i try to see, but i blinded. I would die away, if i could.

Then there are periods when:
I receive all of that i do from a classic NPD and i can breathe again.

My options are, that eather i do that all, or i receive that all. There are no midway, no other options, no other ways .

And right now , i would so pleasetly put you down on your knees just for beeing able to do things in so many different ways that i cant. And i envy you for it, therefor, i would gas-light you, if i'd nkow you in real life.

is this deep enough for you to understand the reasons why we do what we do?

Couldn't agree more!!! NY has to be one of the highest populated N places you could be!!

Don't remember the names here but I have read quite a few posts and am somewhat lost as to where things turned here. I have been around the forum for a little while and have experienced the other circus first(some know which I am speaking of). The one thing that separated this place from the others are the guests. I always felt that this place was really frequented by the "N"s who recognized what they are and were trying other things or just getting to release things they could never dream of doing in real life. Problem is every now and again you get the other side joining in a conversation. Now I do actually like one non here but when others come and try to say things like "How do you enjoy doing that to others" or "you are a mean person" it really aggravates me. If nons want to come here fine, do not come here to post your crap judgments because as I have said before there are some places that are for only us! I get that some want to understand better and im ok with that. Read all you like, try to understand but do realize that if you are not like us it will be nearly impossible to truly understand "us".
Let me post my favorite quote once again:


Well not here my friend!! This is for "us" if you don't like what we have to say(which many will not) than just leave.

A few examples:
You are hurt because a "N" hurt you. Guess what most of us will not care at all.

You are bothered by a "N" at work. Again we don't care.

You wonder why the "N" in your life could do this. Take a wild guess.... Not caring!!!

There are so many places for nons damaged by ns to go so your judgements will never be welcomed here. Probably will get ripped apart by some of the "sharks" here(My non friend's terminology).

On to the reasons why I love it here:

To find others who truly understand you. When you read a post and start smiling because its like that writer read your mind.

To feel like your not alone, that so many others are just like me.

Last but not least:

I am an "N" who would rather be normal. To be able to think clearly and without a reason for gaining why. I really do not want to "gaslight" To create issues just so I can make them better again just for fun. You say how can you be like this and I say F&%K OFF because I didn't ask for it and I would of never picked it(Thanks mom and dad). We are who we are!!!! Most nons talk about the amount of Ns in their lives and the constant complaint's. The nons like this have their issues as well. To be a N magnet should tell you something about yourself. Keep one thing in your mind forever, you will never fix your N. It will all be up to him or her to do. Do not ever expect to be the savior because YOU will never be.

All the best,
Underground

ps
I just had to write a story again. Another page in my upcoming novel!!!

Thanks for the post... What were/are your parents like? What specific things do you think led you down this path to NPD?

For me, it was was the knowledge that no one else was there for me..(my parents were so caught up in their own battles, that they really didn't have the time or inclination to show us much love or even care). and the knowledge that there are people out there who are so damaged that they would take advantage of a child (I was sexually abused by a stranger when I was 10).

No one owns this forum. I was diagnosed as a narcissist. I come here to learn. For every slight you are upset about there is one for the nons. I do not want to be the way I am any more than you.

My point was never about "owning" anything. A good analogy would be a bunch of guys at a bar drunk coming up with a plan to go to an AA meeting just to make fun of the people there. I think I did mention that the ones who come to learn are not the issue. I know that there are many upset nons caused by a "N" in their lives. My point is they have much more forums for people like that then people like us. I don't know about you but I do not go to their places(forums) to give my two cents. So I guess let me be clear, I have no problem with nons who come here to try and understand, just ask waiting4(She loved that). I have a big problem with the ones who come here to pass judgement. Do you not agree that we go on with this daily already enough in our "real" lives and our own minds? All I am saying is we don't need that here. You have your ways and I have mine and I too was diagnosed not just self aware.

I go all over.

You say it never was about owning but your post in its entirety belies your claim. There are interlopers in every forum.

If I post a link to an article and ask if it is accurate and get laughter, who is passing judgment?

I don't currently "have" an N (is it weird that people refer to it that way? I kind of think so), nor would I take it upon myself to attempt to "fix" one if I did (also a weird concept to me), but I was married to one for many years, and many in my family are, with those who are not still being cluster B (myself, while I do have a couple of traits that could be considered borderline, I could probably have more closely been diagnosed with histrionic at one point in my life) ..but my sister has the strongest alignment in her N ways. We haven't talked in some years. It's been as painful being separated from her as it was remaining in our complicated relationship as survivors of different motherlodes of horrendous abuse by way of the same perpetrator in my father.

But I feel quite blessed to have had the opportunity to read the posts of many on here, of Underground and other Ns who in essence are able to say here many things I don't think my sister would 'fess to anywhere, and it has absolutely helped me to foster a better understanding of the reasoning behind what she does. I already have a lifelong, incurable, natural and absolute adoration and empathy for her, if not her entire gamut of behaviors; the better understanding I've gotten here may indeed be the missing piece, to help towards my potentially allowing both her and myself our respective foibles at least in the context of our relationship, so that we can move forward, and for that I'm thankful. (But for which I really don't expect to be liked or anything. )

Personally, I'm glad that people actively express both their approval and their dissent here, with the ways that others may personify aspects of a personality construct; no doubt it can be cathartic and enlightening for all involved, since it's a conversation likely few of us are going to have IRL in quite the same way.

Best regards to all

I agree with everything in your post and in the previous (and grinned like a Cheshire cat to be acknowledged, as you know I would lol). I have to add, that I've learned so much from you as well as a several other N's here, and I continue to do so...many posts validate things I've considered true, and offer a better grasp of what N's suffer on a daily basis.

I was a 'non' who was hurt and bitter. Now, I'm a 'non' who understands as much as is possible for a 'non', and welcome every opportunity provided in this forum to continue to learn.

Plus...the sarcasm is amazing!! hehe

Underground, yes I am a NON, and yes I don't understand N's. I get this error in my head when I hear that someone is aware of his dysfunctional behavior, that he is hurting people around without any reason, projecting his damaged upbringing, and after acknowledging all that, he is doing nothing about it, not care that he is hurting others, and proceeding doing it.
Where do we get if N is hurting constantly, and he is doing it compulsively, and it has been told to him, and people starts to avoid him...? Where do we get?
Is the only option you are saying to distance from N and break the contact and/or stay with an N and keep hurting?
I just get this error in my head cause you are saying that you don't give a damn that others are hurt, and that there is nothing to do about it cause N needs to discharge his need to gaslight, manipulate and hurt.
What do you say, where is the "Manual" for everyday people who haven't read about NPD? Are you saying that that every person that N is making a contact with needs to be educated about this disorder?
From my experience while dealing with N in my life, I would say that life is too short to be sucked into N's tragedy cause here, in my country, there is very little help.
Also I understand that N's need to talk about their issues in order to make a control over their behavior.
The only thing that pisses me off is that you've sad that N's hurt others, they know about it, and they don't care about it.

^There is no excuse for some behavior.... I would say that if you are being treated poorly by anyone.. that you need to take steps to protect yourself... and it appears many in the MH field claim that the only way to deal with an out of control N, is to get away...

Don't let anyone suck you in for more abuse....

Having said that... I still take umbrage to the idea that there is nothing good in the NPD sufferer... that there is no hope.

And I'm encouraged that some in the MH field are speaking out in behalf of NPD's ... to make others aware that it is no picnic to be a sufferer.

So happy you're back!!!

Quite amusing. Sums up what I have been saying rather well.

Ok let me clear some of the smoke so people understand what I am trying to say. I have no problem with the "other than NPD" people coming here to learn or try to understand. I have offered my advice to nons here quite a few times. I just don't appreciate the ones who come to argue or to judge based on their own experiences. I do believe that many can learn from what is written and that is a good thing. When I say I don't care, it is to the ones who just have nonsense to say. Hopefully it's better understood as I know at times my writings go all over the place. BTW love the best regards at the end!!!

Sincerely,
Underground

This was not just for one person but all. I am learning to be more clear.

A little more of my OWN perspective:
Cureav I first and foremost never use my PD as a crutch as I find so many others do with their own issues. I never said what to do about the N in others lives as that is left entirely up for them. I know I have hurt many people and have very easily shrugged it off without any bother to me. Does this mean this satisfies me?? Not at all, it only means this is who I am. I have a family member who is bipolar among other PDs. He lies, steals from family and other bad things continually. You see I am like him except I make you want to give things to me. You will believe that my intentions are good and feel positive about giving me what I ask. I steal from you with a smile and a statement not behind your back. Who is better? Probably not me but these are things I work very hard at not doing anymore. I do not intentionally make these things happen because usually they just do. My mind say this is ok when reality is anything but. I have issues and say it all the time, I am not who I am but who I have become. For me I do not go around intentionally hurting people, the big error is that I don't think like you. My reasoning is different but it is never "I am going to hurt someone for fun today and do it again and again". So my comment about Ns hurting others and not caring is true it's just not planned out like you took it, it just happens. I live in America and I have yet to find any great help so your not alone. And last, people dealing with Ns would be best if they were equipped to know who they were dealing with. Problem is some are too good to be known until it's too late.