Thoughts and some more

So I have been here for some time now and have made mistakes on this forum. I reacted in a way that was against rules and for that I have to pay for it. I also recognize that my actions were solely based on allowing the same old same old come through and that is not what this is about. This is a place to meet others like me, to understand that many of us are quite the same. This helps in making strides for one another to hopefully move forward rather than the directions we seem to know best. I was also quick to blame the moderators as with falling in line with my disorder, it is never my fault. The truth is I did it to myself, I allowed myself to think that I am right and all else wrong. I apologize for breaking the rules and hope that soon I can begin to post again in an acceptable, helpful way. (and rather challenge others, putting those who I feel I need to on ignore) The back and forths do not help anyone except some others who find it enjoyable. This post is not easy to write as I am used to just saying screw all before giving in and yet I need to know that admitting when wrong is a large step in a direction I keep speaking of traveling.

I'm glad you posted, it's so good to see you!

You're a brave fellow, I don't know many Narcissists who are as brutally honest as you are. Kudos, seriously.

We've all made mistakes here, Underground. The key is to learn from them & do better next time. It sounds like you're doing that. This is something to celebrate... so... congratulations.

I do have a ways to go but rather than making this more of the same it will be best to discuss the truths and what comes along with those as a person who does have NPD. My daily struggles are there and have yet to leave. I still feel things that I shouldn't (Which are very negative in the road to redemption). I have accepted who I am, a person who wears the many "masks" associated with NPD. Yes it's much easier to argue, make jokes and do everything other than speaking of the facts of "who I am". I was raised with NO LOVE, my parents did not associate much with a town that's all about who your invloved with which promotes your levels of social involvement with others. My parents home where I was raised was always a disaster. My brother and I were left to figure all out for ourselves. Rules were made by my father that were to be abided by at all times or else a monster came out. We weren't hugged, kissed told that we were loved, NOTHING. At a young age I decided to drop out of HS and was told by my parents that it's my decision(I would never allow my kids to do this). I looked up to my father so much growing up, I did all that was asked and more which my brother and sister never did anything. I shoveled the snow, mowed the lawn, painted, fixed and so on. When I was about 7 or 8 my father was taken to the hospital via ambulance and we were left home. I locked myself in a closet for hours holding a survival knife to my chest till I knew he was ok(7 or 8 years old). My mothers ways were to tell me that my father is sick to the point of death. This was a lie, this was her tactic. Similar things went on throughout my life. My mind has opened and seen things for what they are. My parents are both around 80 and have failing health. They live about a mile from me yet I never see them. My eyes have been opened to the sickness I was brought up with. Blood means nothing to me, I don't feel I owe someone anyhting because I am related to them. I tried hard a couple of years ago to ask why she did what they did, that the effect this caused on me in doing so was not right. I would get the same blank stare and the echoing answer of "I was broght up with no love". Well F*** YOU I said, I too was brought up with no love around sick people and yet I can love my kids, kiss them goodnight and do more for them than you ever did for me. Truth be told I am almost 40 and my mind set is still in that angry state of my teenage years. I was never shown anything except negatives. This is my point of being introduced to the Devil at a young age by someone else's doing. I DIDN'T ASK FOR IT!!! I just got it. My feelings are wrong, my thinking is wrong and many things I do are wrong, this is how I learned to deal with the world all by myself. I have feelings of emptiness which is like staring into a blank page for days. Not like a person who feels sad and depressed but a person that feels nothing. Not easy for the ones around me and again not my choice. ANyway I will end here as I am starting to write way too much. This is me being serious once again, take with this as you may but the truth is it's me and REALLY me.

((Underground)), that was very brave of you to share and even point out whatever you have come to recognize as wrong in your behavior. You definitely deserve to be able to vent your anger out. You are going to be a step above your parents in that you have been willing to admit whatever you may have done wrong, that is an important step to "healing" and gaining. You are certainly far from stupid and fully capable of "learning" from your past and recognizing the things you did not get, things that actually "hurt" you even and ways you have tried to "self protect" that you were basically left to figure out yourself.

One of your posts that I read a while back said that your idea of an ideal therapist would be one you could engage in battle with. I thought a lot about that and what I got from that is your need to "vent" anger must be pretty big. What has impressed me about you is that I have seen you "try" to be patient. I am glad to hear that you do recognize the things you did not get and have tried to make sure you do more for your own children too.

Almost 40, well 40 years ago so little was understood about parenting and how children can be affected badly when parents neglect them and are not "there" for them encouraging them and loving them unconditionally. Parents near 80 or in their 80's, such a different generation, did not really understand "good parenting" either and are the generation that pretty much grew up where children are to be seen and not heard too. You deserved to be comforted when your father was sick, it should have been recognized that you were frightened and you should not have been encouraged to be even more frightened.

When I began to visit this forum, I wanted to understand NPD better because I have had people in my life that show many of the symptoms that are discribed. But, I did not want to just label these different individuals and write them off as "bad" either. You had said to me that I was probably hurt by someone with NPD, and came here "curious". Well, yes, however, I just wanted to understand it better. I do really believe that in understanding something better one can heal and even "forgive" to a certain degree too.
That saying, "people with NPD don't know they have NPD", yes that really "is" the case, at least in those whom I do believe may very well have that challenge that have "hurt" me.

When people get to a point where they are struggling and reach out for help or it has affected them badly enough, they are ususally at a point where they can look back and as they look back can see all the outcomes they did not see when they were "challenged" and perhaps made the wrong choices. Often the person can "self hate" and struggle or even do their best to avoid feeling if they can. I really feel it is very important that when looking back and seeing one's bad choices that it is important to understand the "whys" and be fair to one's self when they did not have the right support and encouragement in their home environment growing up or even from their piers or other adults that could have made a better effort to help and guide better.

One can say, "this is how I know how to be" and settle, however, I really do believe that while one may "know how to be and thrive a certain way", that person "can" learn to improve and grow and do better too. If you have parents that are older, chances are they are settled with what they "know" and probably won't change. You on the other hand, can choose differently, you are still young enough and there is a lot more knowledge out there now to help with that whereas that just was not there all those years ago. I wish it was, I grieve that because it could have helped me long ago too.

As I mentioned, I began visiting this forum because I wanted to understand NPD better. I have had challenges with individuals in my life that have some of the symptoms that are in the criteria, but I did not want to just label them without understanding what the label really means and "why".

Well, one of the challenges I have had to deal with in these individuals is both ADHD and Dyslexia. Well, years ago no one knew what that was and did not help the children that had that challenge either. If you read about it, what happens is that these children are typically 3 years behind when it comes to learning. It doesn't mean they are stupid by any means either, it is simply because they need more time to "learn how to learn".

Without understanding that these children can really suffer when it comes to "low self esteem" and even in their desire to learn or feel they can achieve academically. Well, this low self esteem can really affect them their entire lives, and it is not unusual for a father who struggles with it to make a lousy parent either. Actually, a lot of men turned to drinking and even became alcoholics too. That is what happened in my family history.
My grandfather, I am sure probably had it, and while he was a gifted man and did many things in his life, he did struggle and that affected him in that he became an alcoholic and he was a mean alcoholic. That affected his family too, bad things went on for my father who also struggled even though he actually had a high IQ.

When you talk about fending for yourself Underground, I actually have seen that pattern in the men in my family too. Oh, my father was/is extremely well read and knowledgable. However, he also tends to be in his own world a lot too. My older brother can be that way too which comes from handed down dysfunction, father to son.

Well, it's a lot more complex then just one's average garden variety disfunctional upbringing. I think a lot of men dropped out of school, I think they felt they were not cut out for the average educational expectations, but they did not understand "why" that all added up. My husband also has ADHD as well as Dyslexia like my older brother. My husband is far from stupid, and while he managed to complete HS, he did not complete College and he also turned to alcohol and became a binge alcoholic. My husband never knew he had ADHD either. And my therapist noticed it right away when he met him, and it was the first time I began to finally learn about it myself, something that really could have helped me so much so many, many years ago. I have to admit that my husband expresses some of the criteria and so does my father and older brother. YES, that has affected me a great deal in my life too.

Actually, my brother had a heart attack and I talked to him for the first time in a lot of years. I have been struggling a lot myself and he lives in a different part of the US. Anyway, finally he told me he has both ADHD and Dyslexia. After I talked to him I just cried because the reality really hit me that I have had to deal with these challenges in someone very close to me that created some big challenges for me pretty much "all my life". I am grieving for them and myself, it's been pretty overwhelming tbh.

Remember how you were having a hard time being patient with someone else? I was able to relate to that? Yes, thats my entire life, my entire life with my father, brother and my husband and his father, they all struggle with each other too and they all have the same challenge too. Then I met someone else that I began to struggle with, mentioned ADHD too, and same thing and that person was also curious about possible NPD, and expressed some traits too.

Well, I think it is important to understand the "entire picture" because it doesn't just boil down to someone being a "bad person with NPD". And one of the things I have noticed with those around me that have struggled is being behind in how they matured, my husband was that way for years and I really wish I had known, I certainly did try, but my T tells me that during that time the help I had needed was just not there, and it was not there for them either.

My father was hit and locked in closets, my older brother was hit and made to sit in the corner and told he was a bad boy by all the adults and even the other children and I saw it all, when I was way too young to understand any of it.

People learn to find a way to thrive "in spite of". Understanding "why" is important and learning how to finally "heal and grow" inspite of is important too, even though it can be a challenge.

I too am ADHD, Actually found out right before NPD. I take all types of medication to try and help with that and none of then do anything.
Adderall 30mg
Focalin don't remember dose
Concerta
Desoxyn 10mg
Wellbutrin 300mg
Lexapro 20mg
None of them help anything. I even started Xanax 1mg when I get that "feeling" and that too has stopped being so effective as well.
For some reason my body doesn't react like a normal person to medication... Could be my NPD thing lol.
Learning of reasons why equates to why is something I have yet to be able to come to accept or forgive. I realize that there is nothing I can do to change the past but at the same time it's so hard to change the present. I am stuck in my ways and in my second post above I just started many stories with no explanation for any. Meaning many incomplete sentences as the depth I started to speak of never passed the surface. There are so many factors that happened while growing up which defined who I became as with all of us. I am also much better equipped to see the damage from more than just one side and the continued negativity that invades my space when I "keep in touch". Anyway appreciate the words and the time taken to read my post's.

Yes, changing the present is a challenge. Understanding the past isn't about changing it, it's just meant to slowly realize the "whys" to how you developed as well as realize the things that were "not your fault", too. When someone has ADHD, it doesn't mean they are stupid or a failure either. What it does mean is they were expected to match up to an ideal they were not designed to match up to. It's not much different then a person who is short to think they are a failure because they can't play basket ball as well as taller individuals. When the reality is, this individual is going to be good at something else, something these taller individuals would not be good at. I have actually noticed that about everyone I know that has ADHD too, they tend to be gifted "in spite of".

What I have noticed in every one I have met is the one thing they are challenged with the most in secret is "low self esteem". However, the ongoing goal is "to overcome and command" too. It just tends to be misguided at times, which could have been different had they had the right understanding from the beginning. Unfortunately, that had been elusive and misunderstood, so, many of these individuals struggled and even, as in the case of my older brother were treated badly, punished for something that was not their fault.

When I finally went to an AA meeting to support my husband, I would say that "most" of the others in these rooms struggled with ADHD unknowingly. And they experienced dysfunction, because it is hereditary so they had a parent who also struggled and either sought relief from alcohol as well, or was abusive in some way. The room was filled with some gifted people though, many builders and individuals that tended to need perfection and were easily frustrated inside with that excess energy they could not seem to harness completely. Most of them especially struggled in "high school" too.

My husband was 35 when I finally had to put my foot down and he went to his first AA meeting. Most of the individuals that finally take that path tend to be older before they just hit bottom and finally reach out for help. My husband was lucky because he had found some really good and wise mentors to help him stay on track and deal with his challenges one day at a time. When he talks about these individuals, how they did help him was to learn how to slow down and manage that "need" that tends to come with ADHD. I think about the way these individuals supported each other, and not realizing that they were actually supporting each other "because of" that challenge that was the main root to why they got into that toxic way of living their lives to begin with.

You talk about all the drugs you take that are prescibed? Well, they all did the same thing too in an effort to "manage". They work on "listening" and letting others "speak" and not interrupting them. They have to practice that because with ADHD, one of the symptoms it "talking over, interrupting". My husband runs a meeting every week where he practices this with others in that room. Yet, he never practiced that with me. Honestly, it is as though he somehow saves it all up, all the bad, for "me". It got so bad that one day, I was having a bad day already and needed to vent and he just would not let me "have the floor", I finally said, see what you are doing?, you practice this with others every week, you teach it, yet you never do it with "me".

Do you know that a high percentage of the individuals that go to alanon meetings suffer from PTSD? Well, a lot of that is because they don't understand the people they love, why they struggle so much and can be "mean" and so unpredictable, I know that one so well myself.

This NPD diagnosis, it just seems to be used too much without really recognizing the way people develop some of these traits, and tbh, I think that is sad, just as I think it is sad looking back on my experience in those AA rooms where so many had a challenge that came "first" and they do try and work at doing better, supporting each other, but so many don't have the entire picture as to "why".

A person with ADHD is designed to be what we used to need to be in order to thrive, go hunt and build and explore and be active and defend more than sitting in a chair all day in a classroom, but instead were designed to "learn on the fly". If a child struggles to sit still and learn in a classroom, why is that deemed "stupid"? That is what many, so many of these children were told and were punished for, like my brother and relatives that were all very "intelligent" and "gifted" individuals, but needed to "learn on the fly".

If sitting in one spot all day is "boring and unfulfilling", then I think it is important to realize "why" and what would be more fulfilling when a person is actually designed to be more active.
Yes, I bet you did shovel the driveway and mowed the lawn and did things where you were active and productive wanting to be appreciated. If you think about it, it was not so long ago where a son needed to step up to the plate in an active productive way asap, it was needed to thrive. Actually, young boys as early as age 10 engaged in battle in our own history of America to fight for freedom. My father was barely 17 when he went off to war, had to learn on the fly and grow up pretty fast.

"Learning of reasons why equates to why is something I have yet to be able to come to accept or forgive." quote Underground

I think you need to "grieve" it first before any kind of acceptance or forgiving can even come close to taking place. Human beings are allowed to grieve you know, it leads to taking steps to having a voice and enacting change that can be positive for not only self but others as well, especially one's own offspring. You have a lot of anger in you, can't blame you for that either, you need to let that out, but in the right way, not by taring others down to be "more than". But thats what anger can lead to "without" the "whys".
It's a kind of "I need control as an adult, to be better than to make up for not having that growing up".

Yes, I have been "hurt" by that kind of "anger" , I have chosen to try to understand it better. Yes, my husband and father and others I have come across have expressed some of the criteria that fits into NPD too. Not "all" the criteria though, however, some of the criteria is rather prominent. Some of these symptoms can soften with age too.

Somehow, you are my favorite here. Dont really know how to explaine it, or do I have to. So, You have taken a huge step, and I am very proud of you. All though at the same time somekind of sadness too. cos I wasnt around when you took that step. All together, forgive yourself. After all, nobody is perfect...

Thank you. It has been a while so I don't know if this will work but thanks!!!

Worked fine. =)

Anyway it has been some time and don't see much happening.... How is everyone doing? I've been on my roller coaster as always but luckily have been very busy with work which keeps my "N" routine in a controlled positive way.

I've seen better days. Last year was hell. But made trough. Slowly getting up again and standing with my own two feet.
Back to work also, I was away from work almost 6 months.

Dont know why, but liked you listen this song.


By all good intends, so do not understand me wrong =)

Yes, have not seen you very active, good to hear from you with an update.
It is good that you have been busy, that really helps when someone has ADHD, they tend to do much better " in motion" then having too much time to sit with their own thoughts.

I personally think that it is better to put the NPD on the shelf as to not feed into being too self critical. Instead, it is better to focus on learning better skills to help yourself curb whatever negative you present in "self protection". I think the anxiety is built up in you because you are unknowingly stuck in "defensive" mode and I think what would help you is to slowly learn ways to use that wit differently, you are certainly smart enough.

Here is how I know you are very "smart", you were willing to admit you have challenges and that you want to do better. I genuinely believe that if you can soften with the right therapist, you can finally get what you had needed so long ago and find a lot of inner strength from that process. Not only that but, you can raise your own son (or children) the way "you" should have been raised. You can be there "for" him (or them) and give him (or them) permission to "be himself/themselves" verses having to be something for others where he/they will never find true "self fulfillment" but instead end up possibly feeling unappreciated and resentful because of that.

If I could help to change anything about my husband, it would be that he really learn that how he treated me would be what my daughter would accept in how a man would treat her. I have seen my daughter attracted to the same kind of guy my husband was/is (actually even worse tbh) and I have seen her struggle just like I did, and even worse, blame herself for it too. Yeah, if mom can fix broken dad then I should be able to do the same, WRONG, it doesn't work that way.

It can be the other way too, a son can learn how to be too much like dad and in so doing do the same toxic things towards "his" wife or girlfriends. It's the way a child learns how to behave in a relationship, they notoriously imprint, it's how we are designed that can become a problem handed down from one generation to the next unknowingly.

Keep in mind, human beings "learn" by doing and with children it is watching and thinking "this is how parents treat each other and it's just normal".

I would say, as one drives up to their home, stop in front of that door and say to self, "this is MY family, this is MY home and how do I want the people in MY family to behave/feel where they learn how to be a healthy family, what can "I" do in MY home that is "healthy" for MY family?".

When DAD walks in the door, how does his family respond? Do they learn to run for cover, or do they learn that a friendly caring presence is "home". Now, "if" they are in some way "running for cover or on the defensive", it can take time to change that response, and keep stopping at that door and commiting to affecting a "positive change".

See, you could not do that as a child, but you "can" do that as an adult.

Some food for thought.

Yes I do agree. Although easier said ha ha. I do go through the realization phases at times and my other issue is also severe OCD (very controlling). Not in the sense of making sure all my socks are folded perfectly but rather in doing things better than anyone else. This too makes me "nuts"!! Learning to let go of ways you are so accustom to are where all the fun is I suppose. Anyway it's good to be back and maybe soon I can write without moderation, who knows. I guess only time will tell.

Well the first step underground is recognizing these challenges you have. You have developed some very deep seeded ways of "self protecting" and this is a result of your history. It's definitely a very complex puzzle and while it "is" complex, it is not something you can't learn how to "slowly" change, like I said, you are no dummy.

What I don't like about the diagnoses of NPD, is that in a case like yours, it is not a very sympathetic label, infact it can add insult to injury which isn't really being fair to someone like you that genuinely struggles and self protects so much. Your entire goal has not really been about being a bad person either, it was all about learning how to be a survivor instead. It is also about being "respected" and how you have learned to protect your boundaries. Well, given your history, it is understandable that you would develop these ways of self protecting, it isn't like you ever had anyone to help you or nurture you. You were abandoned, that is what your history is saying, you have done what you could in spite of that challenge. There is a core challenge of "why should I help or care about anyone, no one did it for me, everyone just abandoned me instead." There can be some deep anger from that challenge. The need for perfection is just part of that whole defense mechanism because if you don't make mistakes, then you avoid being hurt somehow. However, truth is, we all make mistakes because as human beings perfection is impossible just as perfection is not found anywhere in any of nature.

Yes, learning to let go of ways one is so accustom "is hard work". However, it is hard work to keep up the ways one self protects too, that is why you have so much stress/anxiety. In a way people with the challenge you have are always in "fight/flight" mode, not much different then what I struggle with in my challenge with PTSD.

What we have in common Underground is a "history of trauma". That challenged our ability to develop healthy Narcissism which is necessary to human survival. I am strong willed in some "good ways", but I have been targeted by others who have developed an unhealthy Narcissim. I don't know if these individuals are what would be considered meeting the complete criteria of a NPD diagnoses, but, what I have come to recognize is that these individuals have many of the traits that are a part of the criteria. I cannot say these individuals don't have empathy because I have seen them step up to the plate and be genuinely empathetic, however, I have also seen them behave in toxic ways too.

When you say that you need to do things better than anyone else, well, that is exactly what my husband does too. I honestly think this is directly connected to the ADHD/Learning disability in him part.

I am thinking that it is not a good idea to affix a label of NPD with this kind of challenge. I can see where that can cause more harm than good. It isn't that the person challenged isn't trying. I am a person who believes to the depths of me that when someone is "trying" very hard, that effort needs to be respected and that person deserves to be helped. That is what I had been doing and working very hard on when what I had developed to accomplish that was destroyed, destroyed so badly that I broke and that was not something my husband could handle, still can't handle, something the average person can't handle or understand though either.

Anyway, I don't think that it is fair to say that "all" your ways of self protecting are bad. I think that you are a very smart individual and that you are very capable of learning the parts lacking where you can slowly gain the skills to improve yourself and at the same time make gains on reducing the anxieties that you really don't have to have. This is something a lot of people learn about gradually, and the reason most who struggle with what is called NPD, tend to soften from as they get older too. Life itself is very humbling Underground, and the truth is that whether we like it or not it tends to humble even those who seem to be the strongest or most relsiliant at fighting back.

I spent time trying to understand Narcissism with my therapist. As I mentioned, we do have to have some narcissism to thrive and some people who develop very strong beliefs have what is considered Narcissistic Traits, and the majority of the individuals that are in leadership roles do have Narcissistic Traits, so it is not always something "bad". When it comes to what is deemed a "disorder" it means that an individual has "too much" and doesn't see the other person's POV or challenges or right to have their own opinions and tastes, but instead should meet the standards set by the what the NPD person considers right or important. In other words, for example, if a person with NPD goes and visits someone in their home and the person with NPD doesn't particularly like the home, it is not a good home and worthless or is not the right home to have, when it may just be a home that the other person likes and feels is good enough. Or, if someone is wearing a pair of shoes that is not designer, therefore that other person should not be respected as "good enough". Anyone that I have met that has been like that tends to be a slave to the illusion of perfection, which "is" an illusion because there is no such thing as "perfect/perfection", instead, it is ever changing and what is seemingling perfect one day is not the next day or the day after etc.