So many questions...

Little background on me first:

49yo male
married 23yrs to the same beautiful woman, currently separated, BUT working on it
25yr military vet (so, I'm SURE the deployments didn't help my situation)
just found out that I'm probably NPD with sociopathic tendencies (I have not been diagnosed yet, but I'm also not stupid)
also clinically depressed (now on meds) <-- yeah me (NOTE sarcasm)

My wife found out last year when our marriage counselor told her and gave her some books to read, but told her not to tell me. And to this day our marriage counselor still has said nothing to me. @sshat. My wife decided to tell me when she asked for a separation and thought that I should get help.

So, after seeking help and talking to a therapist it was determined, by both of us, that I was indeed NPD and clinically depressed. She may or may not be the "right" therapist for me, but only time will tell.

I have begun the journey (research) into what NPD really is and eff me if it's not ALL depressing, "leave them", "no hope", "give up", "walk away".... *****. AND it all seems to be from the "victims" side.

Oh, and Underground is my new idol. LOL Seriously though the fact that you have been married for 20yrs and self aware for the past few years AND are still together gives me hope. I also understand it's probably a daily struggle but what worth it isn't?

What I need or would like is some input from the NPD who are self aware AND wanting to work on themselves and for lack of a better word "fix" themselves. I know there really is no true "fix", but whatever.

Also, any books that will help ME the NPD, NOT the "victims" side. I found a book list about NPD, but it it based more on the "victim"s side.

ps. I put victim in quotes because are we not also victims? however probably defined differently (since there is no hope for us)

First of let me start by telling you that you are far from alone!!! Not on the NPD though just that you are another person who IDOLS me.... HA HA HA!!! Had to do it, you left me a great opening here. But seriously after reading what you wrote I will respond and try to help with what you are going through. Right now I am in the middle of a crazy day so I just wanted to acknowledge what you wrote for now. Will provide some much better insight later. Last but not least "SCREW THE VICTIMS".

... and that's why all the books are written for the victims.

This post is relevant to what someone special ( ) here said basically to this effect:

"Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

One of the few disorders where everyone but the sufferer is treated!"

I suggest Heinz Kohut's Restoration of the Self. Or just Google him and check out some of the articles. Here's one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2860525/

First I will start off with be careful with what you read. There are too many misleading things out there especially when the one with "a disorder" is seeking help. For instance as I wrote "screw the victims" and responses included why we are what we are (In a victims mind).

For many many years I always new something was off but because our ways are so second nature it really never clicked or could be explained. That was until I found NPD then explanations were no longer needed as it fit me to a T. My experience with therapists were not good so far. My best interactions were found in places like this as I found people who were so close in their ways to my own that it was crazy. Does help when someone can relate, especially when you are trying to "fix" actually "modify" yourself. The other person who can really help you is your wife. I found that when I could really open myself and say the crazy things that my mind thinks that my wife never looked at me like I was nuts (like a therapist) but she really understood (as crazy as that may be). I have other things I think of that probably don't have much to do with NPD but crazy all the same. You need to be able to talk to her in a way of trying to be as real as you can. With this she can see better and understand more and more than likely help too. People like us are so accustom to relating to a situation which we understand benefits are inner and outer self. You need to show some light in who, why and what you are. As difficult as it may be, there is a reason why you have what you have. My wife understands me, get's my ways and see's why and what they are. Nobody else can do that in my real life.
Fact is that we were turned into something we never asked for. Our roles as pawns in childhood created our world and yet we mostly here from only the "victims" and how people like us should only be ran from. How can we do what we do? Why are we so cold? How can one not have empathy and so on? The victims you mostly read of are ones who have had MULTIPLE Ns in their lives. What does this tell you..... It tells me that these "victims" search for these types and then when they are hurt they bash and then go find another. Just remember we did not wake up one day and said "today I feel like having NPD". This is what was left for us for many reasons of the same. Don't fall into the BS of victims and what we are because these people hurt and believe because of that we deserve nothing. Well nothing is what we had as children and this is why we are who we are!!! So again, I will repeat one more time "Screw the victims" we are in our safe place. This forum is designed for "us" and people like us. If "victims" like to respond please see the 40,000 other sites just for the "victims" of Narcissists.

So to end of here you can find a better place for yourself. You can get through what your going through and make things right with your family. It's all up to you to do so. Be careful though, many times we believe what we want is really what we can get in a "N" way. It will only be up to you to figure that out. So many years of manipulating our own minds has caused these type of imperfections. Know that there are a few good people here who can help you in these times.
The Underground...

This was my experience, also. I knew I was "different" somehow but I didn't know that difference had a name. Then I saw NPD and yes, it fits me to a T.

I've gained so much knowledge from posting and reading posts here. I've been able to really think things through and analyze myself further, and it does help that you Sir Underground are around because you are so often putting my thoughts into words! *hands Underground a medal*

I'm not into the whole "fixing" and "changing" thing. But "modifying", yes, absolutely.

****ing PREACH IT! There's a ****load of sites for victims of Narcissists to talk about how evil we are, and like you said it's not like any of us Narcissists woke up and said, "oh hey, today I am going to become a Narcissist." Come the **** on!

What you said about manipulating your own mind, can you explain that more in depth? I am very curious to hear about that one from another Narcissist.

As with all PD's in general the literature tends to be about "saving the victim" or "getting rid of the PD in your life". I'll admit there are some people that are beyond ****ed up. But your average PD person just requires certain types of people and a management of expectations. Rather, a certain environment. Let me illustrate further.

If I was a sniper in Syria right now fighting ISIS, I would love to be a sociopath. Why? Because it's functional. I don't know what addictions I'd develop if I had to study a person through a lens for the better part of the day and come to intimately know him only to paint the floor with his brain at the end of the day. I wouldn't be capable of doing that on a regular basis if I had a conscience, and if I rationalized it for some ideal- freedom, justice, revolution, etc- It'll come back to haunt and destroy me later on in life after the war. Added bonus, when the enemy calls in the big guns, being a sociopath means I can drop my ****, run like hell, and get into civvies, and pass myself off as a noncombatant without a flinch.

So, what it comes down to is how functional it is for you and for the people that you want to or need to keep in your life. You must learn to adapt. PD or not, being a human means you're capable of chameleonism. Even non-PD's are chameleons. You put on your game face at work and act your role, you come home you let loose. You pile high the dirty jokes around your drinking buddies, but put on the suave and sophisticated mask when you're out meeting people in a club, or whatever. There are so many layers and personas within a person that adapting becomes a matter of gaining self-awareness and insight and being able to turn on different parts of yourself in different settings. It's constant management, but that's life in general.

I'd say there are several ways to gain this crucial element of self-awareness. And before I state them, let me repeat. Self-awareness is crucial. In fact, most normal people don't have a good sense of self-awareness, but if you do have self-awareness you'll be a very powerful individual. If you can learn to master yourself and your emotions you can survive just about any situation. It's easy to understand but tough to actually do. You can learn from fellow people here, you can try to gain insight from self-aware NPD's, but what helps is a very understanding therapist who is willing to see past a label and who will challenge you enough to learn. Go out into different settings and environments and see how you act or react to situations, come back and talk to your therapist about it or post here. Self-awareness take hard work and it's never fully achievable but if you have more of it, you'll be more successful. And it'll help you stop before acting in a knee-jerk way that would alienate people in your life. Ultimately what works best for everyone is different. Here's what worked for me-

I read every day, but reading doesn't do much but make me about to masturbate with theories that are just products of other people's minds, anyway. I ended up getting close to some very patient people who on the one hand didn't enable me or even allow a second of my ********, and on the other hand were decent enough to allow me to grow and become a better person. I owe these people a lot of my improvement in quality of life. Then, I got into existentialism which is one of the most validating philosophies out there and one of the best ways by which to attain self-awareness and overall improvement in life. In conjunction with years of therapy, years of making terrible mistakes and ruining relationships, and some well-meaning hardasses in my life that weren't afraid to rip open my wounds to show me what I do to others, I was able to slowly gain some insight. I ended up pursuing a clinical career and now work in this capacity with clients who have MI and substance abuse problems. Helping others and analyzing others always add the element of learning more about yourself. That plus the supervision and feedback I get from colleagues adds. It's a multifaceted approach and I wish I can say I have achieved the awareness I want, but I've got lots more to go.

Try multiple approaches all at once, and don't forget the role of environment and feedback. Some people will bring out the worst in you and make you worse in terms of PD-type behavior. Learn to spot them (you usually feel super comfortable around them) and avoid them if you want to change these behaviors. And also, take stock of what areas of life your traits may actually help you in. Everyone has a bad side, it becomes a matter of managing it. Hope that helps.

Manipulating our own minds is crazy isn't it? Atypical I know you want to hear of it but you know how difficult this may be for me to write of..... Maybe later LOL!!

It really soothed my mind some to have read this post. I was always under the impression that a narcissistic person could not change their ways. But reading this and seeing the admissions of having NPD and wanting to change has given me hope. My husband is narcissistic and he has put me through living hell over the last 7 and a half years and as cliche as this sounds, I do really love him and do not want to lose him. But at the same time, I've lost myself to him. Before I get off track here I'll just go ahead and ask, Is there any thing that you could suggest that may assist me in helping him? Like, is there anything that your wives have done that has helped that perhaps I could try?

Sure they can, it's just that most people with NPD don't realize they have a problem, so they don't try to change. If your husband KNOWS he has it, then he has a good chance of changing.

I have to disagree with the above post. Not all self aware Ns will have a good chance of changing. I believe that seeing some here may give hope in thinking so but don't get "your" hope up. I did read the post that got moved in regards to your 7.5 year marriage. Speaking for myself my wife has always challenged me, and with her strong self this has made me a better person for her. Seems that your husband had you in a place that I myself could of never spent that much time with. Not trying to speak down but for me it would of been way to boring. With the writings you marked he had you in a place that's good for "him".
The other part is "change". We cannot change who we are so the right wording would be "modify".
My recommendation would be for you to hope he goes to jail so that you have a decent amount of time to clear out. Seems that you have let him get so down on you, do horrible things and cheat that he will not be able to stop. I could be wrong but seems that the damage is already done.
We're one of your parents or care givers on the same spectrum as he?

Heh, I didn't read her other post. I just did. I don't know if that's a narcissist, a psychopath, or a garden-variety jerk you've got there but it doesn't sound like he has ANY interest in changing. Run. Run fast, run far.

My dad and him share a lot of similar characteristics. But I don't believe my dad was ever as bad as my husband is. My dad thinks that my husband is the best thing that has ever happened to me though. He almost idolizes my husband for "taming" me and says it's in my best interest to do whatever it takes to make my husband happy and make the marriage work. When I ask him, "what about me and my happiness dad?" he tells me that I should get my happiness from making my husband happy and stop being selfish. Pretty much the same as what my husband says just different wording. Which I believe to an extent they are right. Some of my own happiness should stem off of the happiness of those that I love and it does sometimes. Maybe I am just being selfish. Idk anymore.

He says that he wants to change. That he's tired of being angry all the time and hates himself for hurting everyone closest to him but doesn't know how to control himself. There's been times he's even cried with his head in my lap begging for me to help him. So I try even harder to be there for him but then i get discouraged when he does certain things because a part of me wonders that he says that to me in order to keep me there, but another part of me thinks that if he's being genuine about wanting my help and I walk away then i'm abandoning him in a time of need. I'm torn.

Does your wife challenge you and back up her challenges with tangible negative consequences? Does your social circle agree with your wife and threaten similar consequences, and demand accountability and behavioral change? Does your work environment have a zero-tolerance policy on certain behaviors that are problematic? Are you surrounded by enablers or people who demand you to be flexible? Threats and encouragement are nothing without reinforcement. There has to be an incentive to change a behavior. The incentive has to encompass the emotional and material realms. Then, a personality disordered person can modify some behaviors. I don't agree wholeheartedly with either view- that they can change, or they can't. It's entirely a case-by-case thing. Not everyone has the correct circumstances to change or modify their behaviors, and often narcissists and other PD's create environments that are enabling. They find enabler spouses or make non-enablers submit and become enabling. One thing I remember in my clinical work is that often people with PD's will either try to change and modify their environment and people in it so that it mirrors their own internal reality and worldview. This can mean cutting out those who disagree or do things differently than oneself, or actively trying to control your family/social circle to conform to your needs and views. Most personality disordered people are incredibly effective at doing this, and personality disorders don't exist in a vacuum. They often live with other personality disordered people, and were sometimes raised by similarly disordered people. The mind can adapt, you just need the right conditions and those conditions must be constant and unwavering. Unfortunately, most people with personality disorders don't have those environments or circumstances, and that's just the nature of personality disorders in general.

Yes, he is only saying that to keep you there. That's abuser tactic #1. They all do it. And I mean, they ALL do it. You won't hear an abuse story where the abuser didn't cry and swear he wants to change. And maybe he even means it, but that leads to my next point...

Let's say he's completely sincere. He needs professional help, because anyone who isn't a trained professional will just be dragged down with him. He needs help from a therapist with solid boundaries. You can't help him just by sticking with him. It's possible you're even enabling him because you're giving him no consequences for his behavior, you're just letting him run roughshod over you. That can't possibly be good for him any more than it is for you. Yoiu're teaching him that he can do whatever he wants because you love him so much.

Haven't been on here in a while, but appreciate all the words of wisdom(?) and sage advice. I came on here in hopes of finding like "minded" individuals who have dealt with this "disorder" and found ways to cope, deal with it and/or modify their behavior to live a semblance of a "normal" life. Advice from "victims" is ok so long as the "victims" have NPD partners/family member who knows they are NPD and are working on their relationship with them and not just standard party line... hopefully as I go through this "growth" or "modification" of my personality I can throw some tidbits of advice back out.

I've been busy moving the wife out into her own place and reading multiple books. We're trying that "Healing Separation" thing. No communication for 30 days so we can try to find ourselves to hopefully re-find each other and reconnect. But hope is hard to believe in when we're moving ***** and setting up separate finances and all that bullsh!t. I fear (ok, gut talking here... feel) she's already emotionally detached and moved on. Gotta face that fear, and hope my plan A to work it out is HER plan A and her plan A is to NOT to move on and start over. My hope is that she'll see what an awesome person i am and what she'll be missing if she moves on. <--- that didn't sound narcissistic at all.

I've also been visiting my therapist who just referred me to someone more qualified. Maybe I scared her with my brutal honesty about how I feel. Whatever, if he's a better fit for me then so be it. And then again, I may move on from him as well. He won't be the first and I'm sure far from the last. Hmmm, that might be the apathy kicking that is related to the depression.