honesty, goodness, genuinity

I commend you man. I have heard from others like you dealing with PTSD, and can discern that it is a continual struggle, at times a daily one. It's amazing to hear from those like you whom decide to presevere and pull through to find a better way to live life and accept your trauma. I'm rooting for you!

Have you ever considered that some people - perhaps most or even all? - hide their true character out of fear of being judged or hurt for it? This is true of me, and it makes me a hypocrite at times. Once I got more fed up of doing that than I was afraid of being true to myself, I had a wonderful epiphany. I no longer feel so "small".

I know where you coming from. This statement is especially something I can relate to in terms of how I can feel about certain situations in my life at times. It's not everything there is to life though. Betrayal and trust are both equally part of life. To give into one more than the other is going to get anyone off balance with reality. Sometimes, we are just unfortunate as far as our environment and circumstances go. You can change that though. Yes, betrayal will make it's way to you again. It's up to you as to how deep it cuts you though. I have been on both sides of that coin. I've just decided to accept that the world isn't a flawless utopia but that there is still so much good in it. You have to see the good in yourself first. Again, knowing this and actually going through with it is the true struggle.

As trustworthy of a person as you may be, you have betrayed someone, at some point in your life, however big or small. Accept that you and everyone you have met and ever will are and have been capable of betrayal. It is a natural part of life. Forgive whomever betrayed you so you can move on from believing everyone is like them. Work on it, even if it takes a year. Consider the reason they may have betrayed you. Maybe they were weak. Believe or not, most betrayals happen because people do not want to get hurt, not necessarily that they want to hurt you. Not everyone is out to get you, most of us are just big cowards. But that's human. Like MotownJohnny mentioned, human instincts can and do override human emotions.

None of us want to get hurt. Most of us are selfish about it. You seem to be more selfless than most. You have to learn to discern among your peers whom to trust, because if you are not picky about it, you are going to get hurt More often than not out there. It took me 25 years to merely realize that. It will probably take many years ahead to discern the level of trust I build up with someone. That doesn't mean I believe no one is trustworthy. I just know not everyone is. There are different levels of trust as well. Having everyone you meet start of at a negative one-hundred on a scale between 100 and -100 is going to make life very dreadful though, for you and everyone around you. Don't give trust away like bread, but don't believe no one is trustworthy either. Let people earn it -or not- on their own merits. Anyone you don't know deserves to start at 0 and work their way up or down from there.

To be blunt, there are people out there whom, like you currently, believe no one is trustworthy. Some of them, like you, are very hurt by this because they feel they have been, and it seems unfair. Others, in order to adapt, decide to become untrustworthy themselves and do away with any sense of morality, perceiving life as nothing more than dog eat dog. It's a shame, they miss out on the innocence in life, and worse, sacrifice their own.

Not everything is black and white either. Someone you can trust maybe someone some others can't and vice versa. I don't think someone can be labeled as untrustworthy in every aspect of the word. Ask yourself what you are looking for in someone and then slowly discern if that person is what you are searching for. Slowly. Don't give all of yourself to someone when they've only shown you a bit.

Wow, that was friggin' long, LOL

I'm a good person. But you are absolutely right! I am prone to lies, at times. To have my own agenda, etc. Doesn't make me a bad person.

At my core, however, I do consider myself, kind, considerate and compassionate. But I am human, and because I am human, I am inherently flawed.

Sorry, that going from the rose colored glasses seems to be earth shattering.

Let me attempt to answer your question of unconditional love. I do believe it's possible but for brief moments only. If your looking for constant, not possible because IMHO there are no absolutes in this world. Even the most harden criminal with no conscience or guilt or empathy is able to briefly express compassion, love and empathy, BRIEFLY. The reason for that is the same why normal people can not show unconditional love constantly. There are no absolutes. No one is 100% evil or 100% good or 100% loving or 100% hating.

To expect unconditional love all the time from every one, is unrealistic. But it does exist and is possible for brief periods of time.

This is not because of personal betrayal. Rather that I meet sooo many people and have in depth private conversations and think after months of this that this person may be good. Stick by what they say. Then I hear what they've, will do, advocate, etc. that previously would be against their character. Take a woman who meets a coworkers wife and little kids and sees that they are happy together, but still tries to seduce him. Why do so many people turn a blind eye to things like this and why the lack of care for others? I hear so many stories like this all the time.

Why? I would say because people are complicated emotionally. Never black and white.

I'm commenting because I think it's important to see that this kind of thinking is not a matter of choice. It DOES happen to people after suffering a major trauma - or a series of such traumas over time - in the form of being damaged by some most significant people in their lives, those who were supposed to love them. Unconditionally. Especially if the person is sensitive/vulnerable to this kind of damage.

I am in the exact same place as the opening poster and while I am often able to see how irrational my thinking is, most of the time I am fully convinced that people ARE bad, liars, users and have nothing but selfish motives. On top of that - and you see this all over this or any kind of similar forum - most posters seem very lenient with themselves stating that it is part of human nature, self defense, social norm or even a kind thing to lie, pretend, wear a mask, etc.

For someone with my mindset and possibly that of the OP - such opinions are a cause for even more profound despair and a complete justification of this excessive distrust.

Yes, it is an awfully hard life to live, destructive, toxic, isolating but - like I said - it is not a matter of choice.

As for your comment of justifying negative behaviour I can only talk about myself - what this mindset encourages is being dead sharp on people and never trust, look out for signs of their hidden agenda, etc. It often means feeling utterly lost, hopeless, disgusted, angry, suicidal.

I know that most people would find a person with such mindset very unpleasant to be around but - at least for me - this view on people does not make me a user or a liar. I am actually desperate NOT to be like how I see everyone else.

whenever a person says he is something, thinks something or does something, he is ultimately talking about himself at these circumstances. But circumstances change. A person saying he wouldn't try to steal another man's wife does not feel any intrest in his fellowmans wife. A person who says you shouldn't steal, doesn't have a need to steal. Once you are put into new circumstances you have to reevaluate your thoughts, and perhaps change your personal values.

But that's my point fiddler. You shouldn't be changing your values THAT much by each circumstance. Yes, there are times when allowances need to be made. But you should stick by values whenever you can. You can't live justifying every bad thing you do, and claim you are a good person who lives by their morals and ethics. And that seems to be how most people are. Just because you have interest in another man's wife does not mean you then have the right to pursue her. This is what makes me ask if there is anybody else that is genuine and honest, and not a major hypocrite.

Getting to that point may not be a choice for many people, due to whatever cause, whatever condition they may have. However, I believe staying there is a choice for a lot, not all, people. You just have to have the will and the tools to do it. Personally, I had what I consider to be an extremely life-altering experience last year, and it really changed my perspective. A swift kick in the rear to make me appreciative of what I have been given and what the world has to offer.

When someone has been kicked about, abused and traumatized for years and as a result they trust absolutely no one, I doubt that it is the will they are lacking and I very much doubt that it is another kick they need. I would be extremely careful recommending "flooding" techniques to a traumatized, shocked person.

That said, I can accept that for some of the more fortunate ones it might be a matter of choice.

I am curious what tools you might be referring to.

All treatment options at our disposal - meds, therapy of all sorts, such as CBT to work on changing the internal dialogue. Whatever can work for the individual. I just had this lightbulb moment that things were not as dark as I believed, and the vast majority of people are fundamentally good.

Well, I don't know about other people. Maybe if you claim to live by morals. But I certainly won't claim so. I don't make excuses and I don't try to determine good or bad on anybodys doings. I don't think that that is the way life works. No following your morals is ever worth not following your instinct. Say you really like a married man whom you want to get to know. Well it may be wrong, but it would be a greater regret to miss that opportunity for an experience in your life, than not following you moral values. Unless your only goal in life is following your own moral and values that you made a long time ago. things change and the world moves on, you can't stay still alone or you will only fall behind.

See and I completely disagree. I think the fact that they are both happy together places their relationship above your opportunity that will not be the last anyway. ieems most people talk the talk with morals and selflisness but certainly don't walk the walk. I put people into high consideration, albeit I do come first ultimately. It hurts that others don't.

A happy couple does not get disturbed even if somebody else takes interest of one of them. A relationship can seem happy, but there's nobody who can say that this is the best you can get. See people always want more than what they have. Don't take the talk seriously, there is no buddha among us. We're all selfish. That's why you want everybody else to live by their morals, because it would make you feel better. Isn't it selfish to demand somebody to live the way you feel is right?

Well, I wouldn't quite go with the notion of seeking out a man that is married, just because I like him. Not sure, if it's because of morals, or just plain integrity to not get involved with a mans inability to make a decision. I've talked about not wanting to play second fiddle, a couple times here, many times elsewhere.
That is to 'assume' that they are both 'happy' together, however.

I agree, many do talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. I do ask, why does it 'hurt' that they don't walk the walk? In an overall sense of society, as a whole, why does this seem to upset you so?

I guess because the knowledge that I can not have returned the love I feel I am capable of. And I am not speaking of only romantically. Because I feel it should exist and people should have that in their lives. Because I can not have a trusted friend who would betray me should the "right price" come along when I am willing to give so much and not do that. That what good is on this planet is short lived or laced with not so good intent. I guess I have too high of standards. I hate hypocrosy, lies, and deceit when they are "major" things by what I understood as societies standards.

I know, I am honest, sincere and genuine. My view is you reap what you sow. You get out, what you put in. I'm not perfect, no way. But I am honest, genuine and sincere. I can see no reason, no gain, no reward, for being otherwise.

I've noticed there are good people out there but those who really are don't wear it as a sign. I'm always doubtful when someone says they are kind and loving. For me kindness and loving don't go hand in hand with bragging.

Is it always bragging when a person states what they believe to be fact about themselves? Stating something positives about yourself does not automatically equal bragging.

ETA:
Kind and loving don't necessarily go hand in hand with meek and self-abashed either.

That's true...

But how would you truly know the difference in "the real world"?

And for that matter, why would it stand to be all that important?

If someone saves a puppy or works at a shelter or contributes money for a charitable cause, is their motive terribly important?

If they listen to a story and offer help or resources or simply an "ear", is it important why they are doing it if their motive does not ultimately cause harm?

If so, why is that?

A good deal of society is run the way it is because of laws, not because it is a moral imperitive to stop at a red light, but because it is for the greater good that we follow traffic signals- ultimately we hope to avoid collisions.

And not all people make the higher level logical thinking when they stop at the light- many just think "CRAP I don't want to get a ticket!"

So I guess...
My point is:

I know that when I listen to someone and try to help and offer solutions or point to resources, or give ideas, or whatever it is we talk about... I do that because I like helping people. I genuinely do; it is kind of my thing. ...I kind of just feel like it's what I'm supposed to do a lot of the time. [oh no, am I bragging?]

*shrug*

But, no one can actually know that about me?
No one can know why I'm here, why I talk to people, my motives, whether I'm actually a "good" person or not.

Ultimately, if I end up being a positive influence though, with no negative consequences, what is the actual difference?

None, Josie, and the inner motivations are irrelevant IMHO. Did the guy save the drowning kid from raging flood waters because it as the right thing to do, an act of bravery or compassion, or because he wanted to be a hero? That is in his mind, the kid and his family don't give a ****, they only know and are grateful for the act of saving the kid.

I see it as a choice, to embrace the goodness or wallow in the bad side of humanity. I feel sorry for those who can't, or won't, choose to be happy.

Shine bright like a diamond
Shine bright like a diamond

Find light in the beautiful sea
I choose to be happy
You and I, you and I
We're like diamonds in the sky

Shine bright like a diamond
Shine bright like a diamond

Rihanna, Diamonds

I guess the question, I sometimes ask myself, can I sleep with myself, at the end of the day?

I know, through the years, I've learned, some in therapy, but mostly in on-line support(not this board), was to ask myself what are my own motivations? It stemmed from a discussion about 'always' being kind, etc to others. And what motivates that? When it's done for accolades, then it lacks sincerity. When it's done to proclaim moral superiority, it lacks sincerity.

That long running discussion, was helpful in learning to stop being a doormat for others. And also, in learning to not be angry and resentful with others, for not living up to standards. It was part of learning the art of 'letting go' and part of the co-dep healing work, I went through, when I was in a not so great marriage.

Yes, people that are hypocritical, deceitful and liars are difficult to love. I guess, 'should'(<---personal 'issue' with that word) everyone on this planet behave in a loving manner? It would be nice, if we could all peacefully coexist. It would be nice, if everyone followed a loving and sincere path. However, it's not up to me, to be angry with those that don't. They are who they are, I am who I am.
I can hope for world peace, doesn't mean it's going to happen. And I cannot allow myself, to harbor anger over it, it would only absorb my energy when I could save it, and bestow my energies on those that I know can return it, in kind. (positive energy)

Sounds like someone close to you, may have betrayed you. Lest, you are talking about the wars across the globe?