[-jimi-]

I have realized, I do not.

When feeling bad, most of us want to feel better. Because... feeling bad feels BAD.

Things that is confused with self sabotage:

Inability to see things through. This can be because many reasons, like not enough tools, too much fatigue, too much fear, too little support, a brain that cant think clearly because of illness, inability to delay gratification....

Fears can be: Change is scary, what if I start feeling even worse? Will dealing with one issue reveal a bigger, scarier one? What if I lose my identity? What can I replace the badness with? Can I fathom a world with less mental pain or do I just paint it as a big scary nothing? Will I have the power to keep going, or will I feel like now just be deprived the expression of how I feel (Hard to fathom what good feels like)?

Inability/obstacles can be: Trying to do too big steps. Blaming self for shortcomings instead of understand to work around weaknesses (everyone has them!). Internalizing criticism. Illness too strong at the moment (as said, fatigue, anxiety, brain fog). Comparing to others and getting down. Slipups with bad behavior (those have a reason, they are not you wanting to stay sick for the sake of it).

Losing gained ground: Many people believe this is the ultimate proof one doesn't want to get better. Like going back to bad/harmful behavior. I think it is just a bumpy ride. Being told one doesn't want to get better will tell someone to internalize that they don't want to get better. What kind of therapy IS that? Everyone has bumps in the road, even those trying to stop very minor habits! It IS hard. Finding what caused it might be better and I bet it wasn't "I really want to feel bad".

Self punishment: Internalizing everything bad that happened to you that you could not control, making you feel that the "world" was somehow right in treating you bad and you should continue it.

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There are those people who thrives on drama. They are FEW. But they exist. They actually do not want to change because there is nothing wrong with them more than they need negative attention. If they get into a good situation, nothing to talk about. Also they drag other people in so they feel bad too. Being toxic is "fun" for them. Here there is not much to fix. I only know a very few like this, and most dramatic people are not drama thrivers, most are plain desperate and scared. The drama thrivers have antisocial traits. They pretend they want help at times.

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What also can be confused with self sabotage: Wanting to feel the depth of life. Feeling a little non depressed blue can make us feel alive. Listening to a sad song can speak to our souls. Connecting with emotion is quite human. Lets not toss that out with the bath water.

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If you feel I am all wrong here, you are fine saying so. I know I'm sticking my nose out here some, and I am not hurt by another opinion on this.

[Webgoji]

In some ways I think you're correct. Most people don't actually sabotage themselves, but run into problems.

But ... I've actually watched my wife self-sabotage. Now it's not in working on herself or anything like that, but she grew up being told that she was a failure. She was always told she couldn't finish things and that she wouldn't amount to anything. Now I can watch her start a project and start it in such a way that there's no chance she can finish it. When she starts something great and is having success, she'll mentally defeat herself. When you point it out, she'll realize what she's doing and correct it, but you can actually watch it happening and she isn't cognizant that she's doing it.

So yeah, I've actually seen it happen and watch it every day. It usually comes down to someone living up to a self-depreciating cycle started when they were young.

[winter4me]

I see (after the fact usually) myself do as Webgobi's wife does...
There are some things I have come to do better with as I age, others I do less well with...
It is very frustrating when I can turn around and see "I've done it again"...
[ I was also told I would amount to nothing, was incompetent etc etc---despite near constant feedback otherwise at work and elsewhere...it didn't help much--well, it did; but deep down, you want those who mean the most to be the supporters... ]

[neverforget]

I think I believe in it.... Based on the fact that every time something good is going on, or it seems like I could be on a good track or on near success in any way, I start going down hill and throwing it all away - EVERY time! It is like I have a fear of success. But I call it self sabotage

[-jimi-]

I can in a way see repeating a learned pattern as self sabotaging, but in a way not. If you never were allowed to succeed or see your success it takes a lot of practice and insight to even understand your options. If you cannot deliberately succeed, I wonder if you can deliberately fail... But the pattern to failure is there so in a way it is meant, I guess.

I guess there two things are involved and maybe one more than the other. One being not understanding the process, once maybe thinking you do not deserve a good outcome...

Fear of success... why really? I guess there might be different reasons.

[Webgoji]

Originally Posted by jimi...

I guess there two things are involved and maybe one more than the other. One being not understanding the process, once maybe thinking you do not deserve a good outcome...

Fear of success... why really? I guess there might be different reasons.

For people that I've seen do it, it's a hiding place for them. If they psychologically set themselves up for failure, then they are prepared for the "inevitable" comments about how they failed or are useless or whatnot. If they succeed though, then it will hurt worse when they are told that it doesn't matter because they're still useless and won't live up to some standard. It's a defense mechanism; better to be ready to deflect than to leave yourself vulnerable and get punched in gut.

For example, my wife was self-employed for a time. She was good at it too. She was pulling in money and developing a client base and I was cheering her on like an NFL cheerleader. She was feeling great. Then she called her mom to tell her how successful she was and her mom responded that, "Yeah, that's great. Did you hear what your sister did!?"

It crushed her because she left herself vulnerable and when she didn't get the recognition she desired, she started self-sabotaging; not making calls, not handing out business cards until it all fell down. Now when her mom doesn't care about her success, she can look at herself and feel safe because she isn't searching for that recognition anyway.

[Perna]

I believe in the unconscious and semi-conscious and that that can cut both ways. Yes, I have learned to trust "Myself", that I will take care of myself but there is the Loki portion of me too the part that says, "Oh, yeah?" when I declare I am going to do something. . . I guess I am learning that failure and self sabotage is not necessarily a negative thing though, tripping before you get to the edge of the cliff you have declared you are going to fly from when you have forgotten your glider, that sort of thing.

[unaluna]

Ha. I believe in it so much i bought the company!

[-jimi-]

If you make efforts that go unnoticed you might give up. I don't think this is self sabotaging... it is more a Why bother? Then what fails might be the ability to appreciate your own efforts.

For some reason self sabotaging sounds like people deliberately want everything to suck. I might be naive, but I believe most people want to feel good but many can't get there.

[avlady]

I self sabbotage myself everyday in little things like losing things sometimes saying things i know i shouldn't say, i feel like there is always an omen around the corner!!

[TheOriginalMe]

I had a therapist once who told me that I would make all the scary things that I feared so much happen just by believing they were inevitable. I can see he was right, but the way he said it was so brutal. It really annoyed me that he didn't try to get behind the fears and anxiety or show me how to get out of that cycle and boy did I want to escape from it.

So while I believe that self sabotage does happen, I think its mostly involuntary, I've always wanted to get better just never found the right way. The cynic in me says self sabotage is a cop out for therapists who find themselves as stuck as their patients.

Right now I'm probably self sabotaging by staying up late and not taking care of myself when I know I'm depressed and my mood is close to rock bottom. If I don't look after myself, I'll soon be too tired to care and apathy provides a welcome relief from tears and pain.

[Hellion]

Wait I don't get it....I don't think something will happen just because you fear it a lot, so not sure that therapist was right. I guess I sort of see the point, one might avoid something because they know it will be 'horrible' but maybe it wont be...but that is an odd way to word it I think.

[Gus1234U]

you about covered it all, jimi~! still, i know that people do undermine and sabotage themselves, i have seen it... don't know how to explain it, except something is interfering with their having correct perceptions and responses to reality....

hope it doesn't happen to any of you, cause i don't know of any interventions~! if you hear of some, please post~!
Gus

I am a self sabotage victim. Mainly, it's out of fear of doing anything. But, I've also said things to drive people away even though I need friends. I don't feel comfortable with people so I drive them away. I really prefer being alone even though I am lonely.

Because I have no friends, I am very vulnerable socially. I don't bring anything to the table. I am shy and socially awkward. I don't have connections. A lot of people treat me badly and I don't know what to do about it. So, I just spend more time alone. Nothing works for me.

I also think that I subconsciously hate myself and that is another reason for the self sabotage. I hate being alive. I did not ask for this; living overwhelms me. Self-sabotage is my way of not dealing with things.

[Nammu]

I dont know if it is self sabotage but I believe people who perceives themselves as victims will often push buttons that get a reaction so they can either say; See, see they hurt me, or the person leaves them.

When a was a tutor I was talking to a woman who was telling me how hard it was to make friends. I said she was a lovely person or some such thing. She said; just wait you will hate me too. I never hated her but I came to dred her push-pull, like me dont like me behavior.

[-jimi-]

Maybe I am naive in my views. If I self sabotage like I stay up too late knowing the next day will be hard, I think about why do I stay up? Because I want the next day to be hard? No... it is not my intent. I stay up because my head finally settled and because I finally got some peace and I don't want to miss that moment by going to bed.

In the long run, it is better I go to bed when I should, still I find some understanding why I did the thing that made things go not so well. For me it is important to understand I'm not a machine that spits out negative behavior because.. of nothing.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by unguy

I am a self sabotage victim. Mainly, it's out of fear of doing anything. But, I've also said things to drive people away even though I need friends. I don't feel comfortable with people so I drive them away. I really prefer being alone even though I am lonely.

Because I have no friends, I am very vulnerable socially. I don't bring anything to the table. I am shy and socially awkward. I don't have connections. A lot of people treat me badly and I don't know what to do about it. So, I just spend more time alone. Nothing works for me.

I also think that I subconsciously hate myself and that is another reason for the self sabotage. I hate being alive. I did not ask for this; living overwhelms me. Self-sabotage is my way of not dealing with things.

I didn't see your post when I wrote mine. It was not about you, but a time in my life when I did that. I'm back now to read all the post, I only had a few moments and just read the first couple and wanted to share what I was thinking before I forgot. I hope you didn't see it as criticism of your post.

I do believe that it is driven by fear. Ironically when my PTSD was at it's worse my fear dominated me so much I pushed away they very people who wanted to help.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

I dont know if it is self sabotage but I believe people who perceives themselves as victims will often push buttons that get a reaction so they can either say; See, see they hurt me, or the person leaves them.

When a was a tutor I was talking to a woman who was telling me how hard it was to make friends. I said she was a lovely person or some such thing. She said; just wait you will hate me too. I never hated her but I came to dred her push-pull, like me dont like me behavior.

Hmm I'd say there are things I've been a victim of, but I don't go pushing buttons just so I can say 'look that person caused me pain(give me more attention!!!!!1111)' I think in my case I mostly avoid people or am nervous about them because i am afraid they might harrass or ridicule me since I got used to that growing up.

Also when someone faces constant rejection I think its understandable they might doubt their ability to befriend anyone so even if you say something nice they might have a hard time actually believing it or applying it to them self. Doesn't mean they are pushing people away just so they can say 'Im right, Im a victim.'

[Nammu]

It wasn't for more attention, it was to rationalize why I couldn't trust any one and allow me to isolate more. It was a curious state to be in, my anxiety would go up around people but down when I was alone, but I needed justification to explain to others why I wanted to be alone. Back then none of this was a conscious decision, it was just reaction. It wasn't until I received therapy from T who understood PTSD that I began to see what I was doing. I look back now and it seems clear, but at the time it was me poking the bear, and then saying see I deserve to be alone nobody likes me. It was totally out of character for me to be acting that way and a lot of friends were hurt that I didn't want to be around them. I suppose it might be called a coping method, but at the time I was telling the T see no body likes me, I should be a hermit. But it was fear that ruled me, and the desire to avoid the anxiety. I don't know if this is making thing any clearer of if I'm just muddling it up.

[Hellion]

Makes more sense it would be a rationalization thing...I haven't really experienced that sort of thing though. Too afraid of being mistreated to put myself in situations where I will experience unpleasant social interaction(even on a sub-conscious level apparently)...to justify needing to be alone. I can see how someone could do that though unintentionally.

Then again though even if you don't poke the bear so to speak, it doesn't necessarily mean you will avoid mistreatment from others.

[Nammu]

Yup, no guarantee at all about how you get treated, unless you just avoid people. Having been a social creature before my life fell apart my conscious half could not just boldly tell friends, co-workers and strangers that I want to be alone, I didn't have any insight to what was going on back then. I felt like I shouldn't be feeling these things, I need to carry on and be normal. But life wasn't normal anymore, it was a dark foggy place filled with traps, fear was my only companion. I was sent to a pdoc who just gave me antidepressants and they just exacerbated the fear. My biggest fear was that I was going crazy. Frankly after my experiences I avoid most of the mental health care system and work only with a T. That is not affiliated with any public health group think.

[avlady]

my therapist told me she wasn't the enemy which changed my whole outlook on my problem. i had experiences in pshyc wards where i felt the caretakers were all mean and out to get me. when she said that my whole outlook changed. it changed my whole life and she is a great therapist, goes out of her way to help me too. i am a very lonely person as i fear seizures i've experienced before and am afraid to go out of my home because of them. i know what it is like to be a hermit too-very lonely.