[Neena]

Hello,

I am new here with a complicated situation. I realize there are many people who have much more difficult situations, but I really need to vent this and hopefully get some feedback. This is probably going to be long.

I'm very concerned about my parents who are in their late 60's and my
44 year old brother, who still lives with them. Although he is
financially independent and voluntarily contributes to their household
expenses, he is still very dependent on them in every other way, and
shows no goals of ever leaving them. He has no social life and has not
dated since high school. He quit his job 4 years ago and is living off his savings. He spends most of his time at their house watching t.v. It seems that he suffers from low self esteem, fear of failure, fear of change, depression, and possible OCD, as he has odd counting routines, rigid schedules and an odd fear of bones being broken. He will not answer the door or speak on the phone. He seems stuck in the past. But he has never been diagnosed as he refuses to seek treatment. This all started in his late teens/early 20's.

My parents do not insist that he seek treatment, though my mother atleast has acknowleged at times that she wishes that he would. But she also seems to realize that he problably never will, atleast not willingly, anyway. She says it must be his decision. I would agree with her, since he is an adult, if he were living in his own place. I tell her that if she really wants him to get help, it should be a condition for living with them. But then she gets extremely defensive and reminds me how generous he is to her and how dad gambles too much money, and how she can't just "kick him out". If I persist, she hangs up on me and will not speak to me for several days. So I get nowhere. Dad is in denail and just jokes about his son's quirks. There is no talking to him either.

To complicate matters, my parents have become dependent on my brother as well. They no longer have a car and now rely on him to drive them shopping, dr. appt's and to visit me and their grandchildren (I live over 100 miles away from them). My mother never learned how to drive and it seems that my father gave up his car to free up more money to support his gambling addiction, which he will not even admit, much less do anything about. They just go along with all of his odd routines and my arthritic mom has been waiting on him hand and foot his whole life, though now she has cut down quite a bit, due to her arthritis. He has our mother count out the money he contributes a certain number of times. He also offers her "bonus money" for when she agree's to do something special for him, like fix his favorite meal. She then just gushes about how generous her son is. Very sad and disturbing.

I think things are taking it's toll on our mother as she often hides away
in her basement, just to get a break from my brother's constant
presense. He is very good to her for the most part, but he also nit-picks at her a lot and seems to expect her to fill the huge whole in his empty life. But she can not bring herself to say anything to him. Maybe she feels sorry for him? Maybe she feels guilty over our dysfunctional childhood? (mental illness, alcoholism, secrecy, constatnt fighting, but thats another story!) Maybe she worries that he will not be able to deal in the real world? Maybe she feels that she owes him for his generous financial contributions and for driving them? Maybe she needs him as much as he nedds her? Maybe all of the above. I don't know.

Mom says that dad will never quit gambling, no matter how much she has pleaded with him over the years to stop. This seems to be true as they seem to manage with the basics, well except for a car. I told her that she may have depression and it is treatable, but just like my brother when I tried telling him that his OCD is treatable, it fell on deaf ears. She says it will pass all on it's own or changes the subject. When I told my dad of my concerns for mom, he denied it and even got angry at me for even suggesting such a thing. A whole lot of denial in my family, so problems do not even get discussed and nothing ever changes. It is very depressing.

Even though I have my own husband and children, and live far away from them, I still worry about all of them. I know that they are all
adults and I can not change them but detaching is very hard. I don't
know how to remain detached when I visit them and see what I see. I
find that I get very anxious before visits and very depressed afterwards, even though they are all very nice to me and my husband and our children. I just am very sad for all of them and seeing them only reminds me of their sad lives. But anytime I ever tried talking to them in the past, it always ended up in a defensive argument. So I have learned over the years to keep my opinions to myself just to keep the peace. But it is getting harder and harder to do. I feel like I am going to explode sometimes during family gatherings. I don't know how to feel normal around such dysfunction. I love them all dearly, but It makes me not want to be around them. Then I feel guilty for feeling this way. And I also don't want to deprive my children as they adore them. They are very kind and generous to them. I just want them to live better lives. My brother is just wasthing his life like this and so are my parents, especially my mother. Atleast dad keeps busy, mom rarely leaves the house and never socializes outside of us. I don't think she wants others to witness their dysfunction.

I wonder if I am part of the problem, by being a codependent to this situation. But I am not sure if it is my worrying about them (wanting them to get help) or my silence (enabling them to remain this way) that makes codependent. Thanks for letting me vent. I would be very appreciative of any opinions or advice.

[SweetCrusader]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this nightmare. It sounds awful for you to have to deal with!

My advice to you is to get counseling for yourself. There is absolutely nothing you can to do change your family- I think that's pretty clear. The only thing you CAN impact is your own self. There comes a point when you just throw your hands up in the air and say "ok, I did my best." I know it's hard not to try to do something about your dysfunctional family. Believe me, I relate. I worry a lot about my family as well. My therapist has been working with me for VERY long time at trying to help me get past the feelings that I need to try to save them or help them see that they need to pull their heads out and save themselves. I'm wasting my breath, and I know that. Still, I have often times felt compulsively driven to try to open their eyes. It's just not going to happen, and I'm afraid the same is true for your family.

You don't have to give any indication of supporting the way things are. I think you've made it clear that you don't. You can choose to love your family regardless, but without condoning the way they choose to live their lives. Kind of a "hate the sin, but love the sinner" mentality- not to imply that your family is sinning, of course! And I think that's the best you can do. Also, educating your own family that this is NOT a healthy way to live and that you and your children will not be living this way. I think that depends on the age of your children and their ability to understand. But if they are exposed to this dysfunction, I do reccomend going out of your way to make sure they understand that it isn't healthy or normal, but that your family are still your family and still worthy of love.

I hope this doesn't offend, but it sounds to me like you're suffering from enmeshment. Being too enmeshed in the lives of your mom, dad, and brother. I can relate to this, like I said, so I'm not going to pass judgment on you. And it is good of you to care. But you have to care for yourself first. Again, I highly reccomend getting counseling of your own in dealing with this!!!

Good luck!! And, btw, welcome to psychcentral!!

Angela (SweetCrusader)

-comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable-

[Neena]

Hi SweetCrusader, thanks for your kind words. Counseling unfortunately is out of the question for me right now as I just could not afford it. We have a hard enough time paying all of our bills right now but hopefully I can do this in the future. So I try to read self-help books from the library and find forums like this and it helps me. I am glad that your therapist is helping you.

I agree with you about there being nothing I can do, they have to want to help themselves, which apparantly they do not. I moved to another state many years ago thinking that some distance will make things easier for me. I really needed to get away. At least I do not have to witness it on a daily basis anymore. But after having children, you want them to see family. My family is all they have, as my husband's family lives 3,000 miles away and visit only once a year. And unfortunately they are very cold people, and have a very strained relationship with my husband. So I guess it is good that they are not so close.

My children are only aware of the fact the their uncle lives with them and grandma not driving. They are not aware of my brothers odd behaviors, as he does not do anything strange in front of them. Atleast nothing that they would notice. They do not know that he does not work or have a social life either. They have no idea of dad's gambling or mom's hiding away in her basement, etc. But I imagine as they get older they will start to wonder why their uncle still lives with grandma and grandpa. Right now they think they are great and love visiting with them. I just sit there anxious and frustrated, but try my best to put on my happy face for my kids.

The worst part is dealing with my brother. Because he has no life of his own, he just latches onto mine. I don't mean to sound mean and feel bad saying that because he is so nice to me and my children. But I would just love to be able to hear about his life, his job, his place, his wife or girlfriend, his friends, his travel plans, etc. He is so curious about everything we are up to, but has nothing to contribute about his own life. Because he has nothing going on at all. So all he talks about is the past. It is like he is stuck there. I just do not understand why he has basically given up on a normal life of his own. Shouldn't you want more out of life than watching tv land and driving your mother to the grocery store?

I have heard about enmeshment and that does not offend me at all. I do feel like that is the problem. I feel like they do not seem to know where one ends and the other begins as they are all so needy of each other for different things. My brother needing of mom for all his emotional and social needs. Mom needing him for driving and financial help. And thus allowing dad to have more gambling money. I guess that even though I moved out and on with my own life, I am very enmeshed with my concern and wanting to change them. I just don't know how to relate to them and feel like we are alien to each other in so many ways.

I am already dreading our next gathering, which will be soon at my son's birthday party. I am finding it harder and harder to be around them but since they are not doing anything to me or my family, I can not just kick them out of our lives, simply because I do not like they way they choose to live. But next time my brother chats me up about our lives, I feel like asking him what is going on with his. But since it is unspoken fact that he has none, it does not happen. I would be very much the bad guy if I dared. Oh well. sorry for rambling. Thanks again for your kind words and advice, it really does help.

[gloria]

Your choice of doing something about it, or not doing something about it has nothing to do with their codependency, that is the type of relationship between them.

I'm sorry you are worry about them, I would be too. Perhaps this is an issue of recognizing everybody involved is a "ground up" and have free will to decide what they want for themselves. The three of them are as OK as they are going to be with the choices they made.

When the situation changes, they'll need to make new choices. Just make sure to be there for them when this happens. Other than that, they have pretty much told you to leave it alone, right?

gab

[Neena]

Hi gab,

I know they are codependent on each other, or enmeshed with each other, but I thought I am codependent too, just in a different way from them. From what I have gathered, both wanting to fix people and enabling makes someone codependent. So I get confused about it. I know I can't try to fix them, but at the same time acting like everything is normal seems like I might be enabling them to remain this way. Just like my parents do with my brother by not insisting that he get help and get busy with his own life. Their silence makes it easier for him to remain that way. So I wonder if my staying out of it is enabling them too.

Even though they are adults who make their own choices, I don't think they are happy. My mother who was once a very social person hides in her basement most of the day. She has no hobbies. She no longer enjoys the things she used to enjoy. Visiting her grandchildren seems to be about the only that puts a smile on her face. I strongly feel that she is depressed. I think they are all so completely afraid of change that they are stuck. I really wish that want to takes the necessary steps for change and I would absolutely be there for them if that would happen. I would jump up and down if that day would ever happen! But I fear they will live this way until they die, as they show no signs of wanting to take even a baby step.

Thanks for sharing with me. I really like getting feedback about this.

[donaquixote]

Hi, Neena, I am brand new here myself. You have been getting really good advice so far!

You mentioned that your brother lives in the past, and that he talks about the past when you try to ask him about the future. I was wondering, what kinds of events in the past is he focused on? Does he miss the way things used to be? Or does he see bad things that happened long ago as unresolved and still worth worrying about?

I ask because I get stuck - hard and fast - in the past myself. If your brother is affected by something that he can't let go of, he might be willing to see a therapist about that. I sure would, if I had the money. And the therapist might help him look forward and set goals as the other stuff gets resolved.

[Neena]

Hi donaquixote,

He seems to focus on the past in general. How everything somehow relates to years ago. He compares his childhood to my children's, even though times change and things are different, as each generation is. He
only watches the old shows on TV land and listens to the oldies radio station, not liking current music or tv shows, or the any of the newer trends, technology, etc. He often brings up stuff from our childhood, the happy and neutral things. He never brings up any negative stuff, even though we had a lot of it growing up. I think he likes to pretend things were better. He really doesn't have much else to talk about since he doesn't work, date, socialize, have any hobbies, travel or do anything other than hang out with our mother.

He just does not deal with change of any kind and does his best to avoid it. He does not talk about his plans or his future, ever. It is very sad. Yes, a therapist could probably help him tremendously. But I could never see him going without being dragged there. I am sorry that you get stuck in the past too. So do I sometimes, and it is hard to let it go. I also can not afford a therapist right now either. So I try to do something to distract me from those thoughts. Try to keep busy. Playing with my kids also helps me focus on them instead of my own junk. I also I find that planning something positive and looking ahead seem to help, too. Good luck to you.

[gloria]

Your need to do something to improve their quality of life is not codependency, is love. What they have among them is codependency.

Remember you are not responsible for their choices, and you cannot force them to change them either. Just make sure they are aware that, when they are ready, you are there for them. That is all you can do besides go nuts, so be careful.

Codependencies are that, dependencies, like alcoholism, and you can go crazy trying to make an alcoholic quit, and it will never happen, unless the alcoholic decides it's time. And even then it is a struggle. For your parents and brother to change their behaviors the need has to come from inside themselves. You can loose your mind trying to make them see.

Be there for them, love them, remember it is their choice, and be ready for when they are ready.

gab

[donaquixote]

Hi, Neena. First, thanks for wishing me luck. What a shame, you and I are happy to see a therapist to talk about stuff that still bothers us from long ago, but the bills won't let us. LOL. Like you, doing what I need to do to pay those bills keeps me pretty busy.

The reason I asked about what interested your brother about the past, though, was that I thought it might give you a clue as to how to point him towards getting some help, without triggering defensiveness on his part.

All I meant by my own remark was that I perk up at the thought of talking out, and resolving, things that still hurt but which I did not (always) cause myself, but I would feel a lot differently about therapy if anyone suggested it out of concern that my behavior or choices in life were not normal. Even if they were absolutely right.

I am amazed that your brother was well-off enough by the age of 40 to quit working without worrying about money. He must have been very good at what he did? Maybe he will eventually get lower on funds, and think about getting another job on his own.

Another question: When you said that he started showing signs of his problem in his 20s, did you mean the lack of girlfriend or friends? Or something else?

[Neena]

Hi donaquixote,

You make a very good point about the difference between wanting to seek help for yourself, as opposed to someone else suggesting it. I doubt anyone really wants to hear that they are not normal and in need of help. I know I wouldn't! That is why it is so hard to say anything to him. It's not like he ever even complains about his life to me or anything. The only thing I have said to him in the past was about his OCD-like behavior. But he just laughed. My sister and I used to tease him when we were younger about how he should move out (over 20 years ago). But that was typical teenage sibling teasing. Now it is way beyond that. I suppose he must know deep down that things are not right with him. But instead of even wanting to vent any of it, he suppresses things. I think he is in denial about a lot of things.

And yes, he has always been a very hard worker, when he does work that is, lol. In fact, the company that he used to work for had asked him several times to come back to them, even at a substantial increase in salary. My parents and sister all tried to convince him to accept it, but he will not even consider it. I wish I had that problem! The reason he quit was because there was a change in management that he did not like, and so that was that. Like I said, he hates change. He made a decent living, but also since he didn't do things like date or travel etc., he had a lot left over to save, I guess. So he has been able to live off of his savings for the past few years since his only real expense is whatever money he contributes as rent to our parents and his car insurance. I think he must be getting fairly low on funds now or maybe has decided not to go through his entire savings before getting another job. But I imagine it is hard for him and the longer he waits, the harder it becomes.

The signs he started showing in his early 20's were mainly just the OCD (well at least that is what is seems like, since he never has been formally diagnosed). At that time he did have friends and a fairly active social life. But I think as they all started to marry and start families, he started to distance himself from them. I remember my mother telling me how his friends would keep calling him to get together or to go to their children's Baptism's etc. but my brother would find excuses not to go. After doing this for so long, of course they finally stopped trying. Then things just went downhill from there with him becoming more and more of a hermit.

So at this point, if he just gets himself a job that would be an improvement, getting him out of the house and contact with other people beside our parents. Hopefully it will be soon. Thanks for the interest, it helps me to vent this out.

[donaquixote]

Hi, Neena. I hope you are feeling a little better about your family. Is your son having a big bash for his birthday party?

My best friend's brother is a very reclusive guy.His parents died within a year of each other just a few years after he finished college. He got a house with his youngest sister, and then she died of cancer when he was about 40. He had a very specialized job that allowed him to make a lot of money working literally a few weeks a year, and he spent most of his time off at home. He retired completely very young, when he was not much older than your brother is now. One of his sisters gave him a lecture, which she felt was delivered very lovingly, that he had to get out of his house more and do some volunteer work, at least. He refused to speak to her for three years. My friend finally decided to mind their business for a moment and told his sister she owed her brother an apology for trying to mind HIS business. She didn't like it, but she did it, and now they talk on the phone all the time again.

At the same time, my friend was worried about his brother's reclusiveness, too. But he discovered that his brother did have some interests that did not involve his strict routines and favorite TV shows. For example, the guy is fascinated with finding ways to do expensive things more economically. He heats his basement with the dryer, for example, by bringing the vent hose in the house and putting a nylon stocking over the end to catch the lint. He loves to research anything he might want to purchase, ask the sales and service people a hundred informed questions, etc. He finds that fun even if he has no intention of buying the car, washer, whatever.

My friend starting asking his brother to go with him every time HE wanted to buy something major, and to help out by asking all the right questions. He is amazed at all the tricks the guy knows to get the best information, prices and service. His brother (with whom he had not been close as an adult) is happy to have his special interest admired and now invites my friend to eat dinner (always at his house, but what a good start), and to go biking, all the time.

Eventually, my friend's brother asked him if he thought it was true that he was too solitary and that he ought to do something for other people. My friend told him that his personality was fine, but he thought he would probably hate leading a group of seniors in song at the nursing home. On the other hand, he said, he did not seem shy or ill-at-ease when giving advice on saving money or questioning salespeople , and a lot of poor and elderly on fixed incomes would sure love to have a smart consumer advocate helping them with landlord problems, etc.

The guy was still very hesitant at the idea of picking up the phone and calling a volunteer organization, but he said he would be glad if my friend would ask around for him. He promised to consider whatever my friend came up with.

I thought this story might give you some hope. The poor guy is really afraid of people in general, but encouragement of what he can do has made him a lot more open and more accepting of himself as well. At least that is my view -- I think my friend did exactly the right thing.

Trying this on your mother instead -- that is, invite her to something that might get her interested again in something she used to enjoy, in a way that does not require your brother to drive her and go with her -- might be a way to go also. I dunno if you can find the time, but inviting one of these sad people to do something independent of the others, with you, seems more positive and more gratifying to them.

This is not really advice! More like the blind leading the blind, LOL. I just thought I'd tell you what my friend did and what the results were.

[Neena]

Hi donaquixote,

Thanks, I try not to get too worked up about them and try to accept them and enjoy their company. But sometimes I do get down about it. There seems to be a sadness in my mother's eyes, even when she is smiling at my children. Ditto for my brother.

My son is just going to have a few friends sleep over and we also do a separate little family party. As they get older, the parties do become more low key, which is a relief! My younger one is still at the big party stage and it gets a little crazy sometimes.

What a great story about your friend's brother, thanks for sharing it! I guess my brother has some interests other than his favorite tv shows too. He has always been into trivia and does really well at games like trivial pursuit and jeopardy. He loves to playing these games with our family. It would be great if this interest could be applied in the same manner as your friend's brother. I agree with you about encouragement, I know it helps when my kids are nervous about something. I always tell them to believe in themselves and not to give up if they want to succeed at something. My brother seems to give up on so much without even trying. He needs to feel encouraged and confident enough to try things. But he also has to have some determination from within, which he does not seem to have. Of course I hope that changes. But I think he really needs some tough love from our parents to push him this way, which is out of my hands.

As far as doing things with just my mother, I have tried numerous times. But my brother always comes along and I don't know how to prevent that. For example, I have invited to take my mother out to lunch and when I get to her house, she cheerfully announces that my brother will be joining us. So what can I say, especially with my brother right there? And ofcourse when she wants to visit me, he has to drive her. I can't even get a private conversation with her without my brother joining in. My husband will try to steer him to hang with him and my dad in another room, but he does not stay with them and tends to stay by my side. It is frustrating, but how can I tell him to go away without hurting his feelings?

He does the same thing with my sister. When she used to live there, she used to catch him listening to her phone conversations. It is like because he does not have anything going on in his own life, he wants to get so involved in our lives. He wants to know about every little thing in all of our lives, but shares none of his own life. I know this may sound harsh but sometimes I feel like he is sucking the life right out of me. It would be so nice to hear about his life just once in a while.

One thing that I find really annoying is this. He comes to some of my children's games, which is nice, I know. But as we are sitting in the bleachers he will start asking annoying questions about the other parents there. Things like "do I know any of these people here?" And by "know" he means has he seen them at other sporting events. He does not talk to any of them. First of all I feel uncomfortable talking like this and just try to watch my son's game, and also I don't really remember with all of the different sports both my kids play, who he might of seen before, etc. Besides who cares? So I will quickly answer "no" and focus on the game, giving him clear signs to do the same. But he continues and will then point out that he recognizes one of the mother's and then asks me "wasn't her son on his baseball team last year?" He will then go on to try to point out others I was wrong about also. I keep trying to hush him as I dont' want to talk about the other parents there, even if we are not saying anything bad, it is just weird. You know how you can tell when someone is talking about you. I know I wouldn't like it if I saw someone doing that to me. Other parents sometimes bring along extended family too, but I don't see anybody else doing this sort of thing. They are there to watch their grandchild, nephew etc., play the game, that's it.

I could see if he were trying to make new friends or meet a single lady, that would be great. But first of all they are all married, so he is not looking to date anyone and also since he lives a couple of hours away, he is not looking to meet new friends. I wish he would show this interest in people in his own community, but he does not. I feel he is just invading my space and it makes me very uncomfortable.

I am sorry if I sound very negative especially when you are trying to give me hope. I really do appreciate you sharing the story about your friend's brother and all of your suggestions.