[AShadow721]

My husband and I made the decision/pact almost a year ago to not hit our kids, not even spank them. I did research for a final project for school and discovered the very negative impacts of spanking children. I found this site had the best information about it:
http://www.stophitting.com/

I may have the wrong view of spanking. I may not understand what spanking is that is not considered physical abuse. But where is that line drawn? At what point is it okay? At what point does it not hurt the child? Because even if it doesn't leave marks or or break bones or whatever else physically, it does break their spirit and it breaks their trust towards the parent. And in that way, if it's not physical abuse, then it is emotional abuse.

Well, I was physically abused as a child and "discipline" was the excuse. It's not discipline. It doesn't teach us anything other than, we are bad kids, we don't deserve respect, and we should fear our parents. It teachs us that we should respect and submit to people even if they don't respect us. In that sense, it teachs us to become victims over and over. And it teaches us to put ourselves in bad romantic relationships. Because it teachs us to stay and love someone no matter how bad they hurt us.

Well, my "friend" thinks that I spoil my son by not hitting him. He thinks that he cries too much and acts out. He thinks I let him "get away" with too much. He told me I need to be meaner to him. He told me that his friend beats his kid when he acts "bad" and he doesn't cry as much as my son. He thinks that my non-spanking beliefs will cause my son to be too much of a free spirit. I didn't understand what he meant by that and he told me if I didn't understand, then he shouldn't explain it.

I don't want to hit my son. He's only 17 months old! And I promised my husband I wouldn't. My husband was abused by both of his parents. I was abused by one of my parents. I hate my father, but I love my mother for everything she has done for me. I trust my mother, I would trust her to take care of my son. I would never trust my father to watch my son for 5 minutes. Because of this I can see the difference and I know it's wrong. I don't want my son to ever feel about me the way I feel about my father. I know that if I ever smacked him, it would just get worse and worse. I have PTSD and I know that anger and rage. I know that feeling. I know the desire to be violent. I've beat up plenty of walls and and other objects. I've hit animals in the past, which I feel terrible about. I've come way too close to hurting my son too many times and I've had to hit my father's belongings instead (because I know that my father, and my son's blood father are the actually people that I'm actually mad at). My son's innocent and he doesn't deserve to be hit. and he's just a toddler, he's still not fluent in speaking, sometimes crying is the only way he knows how to express how he feels. And there's nothing wrong with crying (although it can aggravate us and upset us at times when we don't think we can take it anymore). He is right and justified to cry. He has a right to express his feelings. We can teach him to express them in a better way, but he has every right to feel upset, angry, sad, aggravated, etc. They're human emotions and teaching him not to express them or that they are wrong will only make him try to supress them and not know how to deal with them effectively. How would spanking teach him how to deal with his emotions effectively? Do we want to hurt ourselves now for being upset, would that make everything better, will that help us calm down? Not really...I think that's where SI stems from.

[perpetuallysad]

Personally, I don't spank, I think its weird to say spank a 2 year old because he bit someone or smacked someone, I mean, aren't you doing the thing you are punishing him for? And my god, a 17 mnth old is just learning everything, why on earth would you want to BEAT him? Your friend doesn't sound like a good friend to me and I, quite frankly, would tell him I didn't need him or his opinions any longer. A 17mnth old should be a free spirit. He's just old enough to start really exploring his world, hitting him would do nothing to enhance his learning process, unless you are wanting to teach him to fear you. I much prefer teaching my son the rules and then teaching him that there are consequences to broken rules. For the life of me, I cannot imagine a single thing a 17 mnth old could do that anyone could ever suggest a beating as punishment. And babies cry. The kid your friend was talking about who doesn't cry has been conditioned to know that his needs will not be met, so he doesn't even try to cry as much (crying is how babies communicate).

Sorry to go off on a rant like that, but I couldn't hold that in. DO NOT let some random person convince you to "beat" your son so he will be quite. I've been around kids this happens to and they are broken and that's really, really sad.

[ruffy]

I dont have children but I was one, and when my parents disciplined me they always explained what the punishment would be and why, and that they were doing it out of love and not anger. They would then let me think about it for about 24 hours before the punishment was due. That was worse than the two smacks on my bottm with a wooden spoon or belt. I had plenty of time to think about what I did wrong, and they would have me explain to them why I was being punished just before the spanking occurred to make sure I understood. They never did the spanking at the time of the bad behavior. They would wait which gave everyone a chance to calm down. I turned out pretty well and never resented any of the spankings I got. I pretty much deserved them. PS I always had about three warnings before it came to being spanked, so its not like I didnt have a chance to change my behavior. I honestly dont think 2 smacks with a spoon constitutes a beating, and I was never hit on my bare skin. Spare the rod spoil the child. Just my opinion. I'm 44, and this is how it was when I was a child growing up. I truly respect a parents decision not to spank their child.

[DfendrOfEmilysHeart]

If YOU feel that spanking your son is wrong and you promised his dad you wouldn't, then don't listen to this person.

[Yoda]

I have a friend who tells me how to raise my son too. He gives me bad advice. Very annoying.

I have spanked my son two times ever. Once he was probably six or seven years old and we were hiking in the woods and he hit the dog with a stick. The other was about the same age when he started hitting me in the abdomen/legs with his fist. I think spanking never works and it can cause problems. I have heard that it is linked to enuresis (bed wetting) but I have not read the sources so not certain.

I have found time out to be useful when my son was young. Pretty much up to the time he was a teenager. One minute for every year of age. My son was ADHD so while he was in the chair he would be upside down and twisting and twirling but he was in the chair. When he became a teenager I started taking away privileges but I don't think that works as well with a child, at least not my ADHD child.

You mentioned your son is acting out but what behaviors exactly is he displaying that needs discipline. It is very difficult at that age to get them to understand. They don't start to distinguish reality from fantasy until they are six or seven years old so you are going to have to be patient. Or lock him in the closet. I am joking but I do know there have been plenty of times that I wanted to.

Good luck.

[AtreyuFreak]

Oh my god! I can't even think of ANYTHING a 17-month-old child could do to deserve a spanking, let alone a beating! I was told that the point of a spanking is to humiliate (which still seems cruel and pointless), but how would a toddler understand that?? I was also "spanked" as a child, though I'm certain that it was more about my dad releasing his anger than "disciplining" me. A toddler is supposed to cry. Maybe not all the time, maybe yours does cry a little too much, but when they can't talk, they have no other way to express themselves. Beating him would only teach him to suppress his feelings. I'd say, stick to your guns. Don't let some idiot talk you into doing something that you're against. Let him do that to his child; in 10 years, when his kid is off stealing and getting in trouble with the cops, sit back and think to yourself: "I knew it."

[Vibe]

A 17 month old can't be expected to have that much control over his emotions. That comes with age. He can be taught how to channel his feelings appropriately (and should be), but I don't think hitting the kid delivers that message at all. It's punishment, not discipline; and seems to usually be done as a means of stress relief for parents. I was spanked and it only changed my behavior in the short term. I never learned from it what the appropriate course of action would be.

And I feel sorry for the poor child who 'cries less' after being spanked at that age. It sounds like the child is withdrawing, learning to fear his parents, and being taught to bottle his emotions. In short - I believe your "friend" is full of bad advice.

i think i've heard that even with people who advocate spanking you aren't supposed to do it until they are a certain age, maybe 3 or 4. sorry, i don't know the details as i'm not a parent. i would not listen to your "friend" at all, especially if there is any chance you might get out of control with it.

[AShadow721]

My son isn't really "acting out" in my opinion. He just throws fits and he does things that he doesn't understand that he shouldn't do (like putting things in his mouth that he shouldn't or drawing on the wall, etc). And I couldn't comprehend why my "friend" just said that out of no where, when my son wasn't crying or anything. My "friend" (I use the quotes, bc I can't believe that a true friend would tell someone to beat their child) told me he was hit a lot as a child after I told him that my husband and I don't believe in spanking. I told him this to begin with, because at 13 months old, my son was trying to play with my laptop and took one of the keys off while I was on the phone with my "friend" and he told me to spank him. This whole time when I would hang out with him always with my son (I still have yet to let anyone else watch my son, bc of my trust issues, anyway, since I'm married, I wouldn't go hang out with a male by myself), I noticed his reaction when my son cried. And I knew that if he had children he would beat them, based on his reaction. He would just freak out, tell me to pick up my son, and that I need to take him home.

I remember seeing a Steve Wilko's show when my son was only 1 month old. At that time I had post-partum depression and was also still recovering from the birth and I laid in bed with my son all day and watched mostly 48 hours and Steve Wilko's, which probably only intensified my distrust for anyone else watching my son. Anyway, Steve Wilko's was talking to a man that broke his 4 month-old's arms, because he couldn't get the baby to stop crying. And Steve Wilko's said "Babies cry". That's all I really remember, but after that I watched people's reactions to my son crying and could spot the ones that couldn't handle it.

Anyway, that day, my friend took us shopping, and my son didn't want to stay in the cart and he was crying. So I let him out to run around (it was a pretty small store). But he was grabbing things to play with and running everywhere and my friend thought he was acting terrible. My son was also tired and very hungry. It was about 5 and he had only eaten breakfast. We hardly had anyway food at the house, that's why we went shopping.

My father (my abuser) also took us out a while ago to eat dinner (that's rare), but he thought my son was "acting up" at the resturant, because he didn't want to sit in a high chair doing nothing for half an hour while we waited for our food.

My son does say a lot of words. He's learning at least two a day now and he does make a couple up to three word sentences, but crying is still a way he communicates. And I realize that he is expressing his emotions and needs. I don't want him not to. Thank you all for elightening me as to why my "friend's" friend's child does not cry as much, it makes perfect sense.

[(JD)]

I agree, hitting is not the answer.
Have you considered using sign language? They say children as young as 3 months old can grasp ASL, because it is a different type of language and they can use it long before they have verbal skills. It makes things so much easier when they can tell you what's wrong, with basic signs that even adults can quickly learn.

[AShadow721]

I tried using a sign language video that I watched with him and did the signs when my son was 6 months - 13 months. After that he kind of lost interest in the younger baby movies and wanted to watch preschool tv shows. He does know the sign for hurt, but I'm not sure if he understands what it means. He also has his own sign for give me that. He is doing really well with his verbal skills already though. He knows and speaks a lot of the words that were on the sign language video. Maybe there are some words on the video that could be useful.

I just started him a few days ago with timeouts. He was watching a show that was talking about it and I realized that it's not really supposed to be about punishment, it's more about calming down. I thought it was a good technique to teach him. I know that if I was upset I would want to take a timeout to calm down. So I've done this a few times already. I set him in a chair and I softly count to 60 or 90 if he's still not calm by then and I pat his stomach with every number. It's starting to help and I actually feel better too. I hope that he'll start to learn it himself and do this whenever he gets upset in the future. I thought the show was good too, because they were saying when you feel too mad, it's never okay to hit, you have to calm down and use your words. I thought that was a good thing for parents to hear as well, and I'm really glad they made this show.

I just have to mention that the other day my son started telling me thank you. He's said thank you for months, but I don't think he understood what it meant. For instance, we were taking the dog out for a walk and it was getting dark. My son was in his stroller and he threw his ball out into the dark. I wasn't going to get it, because it was too dark to see, but he started crying for it. Normally, I wouldn't get something for him while he was throwing a fit like that, because I don't want to encourage him to throw fits. But I went and got the ball and gave it to him and he said "thank you"! It was so sweet and it made me feel like I really am doing a good job and disciplining him the right way.

[michelle421]

i agree that trying sign language is a great tool for parents and young babies. my friend told me about seeing a parent and child in the co-op we participate in, and the child was able to express what kind of fruit he did or didn't want. amazing! children should be respected.

and i really like when you/AShadow said:
"He has a right to express his feelings. We can teach him to express them in a better way, but he has every right to feel upset, angry, sad, aggravated, etc. They're human emotions and teaching him not to express them or that they are wrong will only make him try to supress them and not know how to deal with them effectively. How would spanking teach him how to deal with his emotions effectively? Do we want to hurt ourselves now for being upset, would that make everything better, will that help us calm down? Not really...I think that's where SI stems from."

i think that's really interesting. absolutely he should be allowed and encouraged to have and express feelings. there are lessons to be learned as he grows up, for sure, but we shouldn't be teaching children to deny or hide their emotions. i have been involved in many conversations about SI and that is a very interesting point... learning about how to deal with emotions through physical means is well... for lack of a better word, interesting. i'm fascinated by it at least.

[AShadow721]

Well, I used to SI. I couldn't really tell you why, just that I was in terrible emotional pain. But it makes sense that if it is learned to physically injured when you are upset, by the parent spanking a child for crying or having a temper tantrum, then they will learn this way to "soothe" themselves. First of all, it teachs the child that their feelings don't matter, that the parent won't help them when they're that upset. So when they come to be teenagers they feel completely hopeless and alone and they know they can't look to their parents for help, because they were taught that they don't care. Also, what I said they are being physically injured by the parent to calm down, which in turn makes them believe that pain can ease pain. One of my old T's told me this, that what we learn before the age of 3 is carved in stone, and we may not actively think about why we think or feel this way, but there it is. This T told me it's very hard to erase what was engraved in the stone, but it can be done.

This friend that told me to beat my son, he was abused (although he obviously believes it's for the best) by his parents. And he told me he loves pain. He even likes to eat his food too hot so that it will burn his mouth. It's quite odd to me. Then, awhile ago, he tried to touch me, and since I got up to leave (as a way to get away from him, because I told him no once and then he tried again), he got mad at me, but after I forgave him he kept telling me he wanted me to cut him and he would try to put a knife in my hand and everyting.

This is odd to me. One time I SI'd, my aunt's friend (a nurse) came over and cleaned my arm and he asked me if I liked pain. I didn't know want to say, because it sound like he was hitting on me. But, no I didn't and don't like pain. The love of pain is the perversion that corporal punishment and physical abuse create.

This same friend called me the other day and my son was crying. My son brought me over the laundry detergent and wanted me to open it for him. Of course, I was not going to open the laundry detergent for my son! And my friend asked me what was wrong with my son and I told him he wanted me to open the detergent and I wasn't going to. And he was like "Spank him!" Ummmm........WHY???
My son didn't understand that that was a dangerous thing and spanking him would not teach him that that was dangerous. All I can and should do is put it out of his reach and tell him "dangerous".

Also, I spoke to my husband about this and he said that what my friend meant by "free spirit", is that he will grow up to be gay. So apparently, not beating your kids will make them gay. Well, I guess I wasn't physically abused enough..... This makes a lot of sense that he would think this though. My husband and I think that my friend might be gay and is denying it to himself. So I guess he thinks that this was the good reason his parents beat him? Hmmmppphhh..... My husband just told me not to listen to him.

[michelle421]

i have dealt with si issues for many years myself, too. i have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and really it's just so complicated. i used to be able to justify hurting myself a lot because of the help it provided me. there is a very fine line between pleasure and pain sometimes and/or for some people.

i think it's really sad that many children have a difficult or unsafe childhood, especially in early infancy. that is so important for their growth, and yes the things learned that early on stay with you almost forever. it's sooooo hard to unlearn those things. my partner struggles with that every day. and she has learned from that early time in her life that being hurt was to make her a better person (that's what her dad said). since that was something that she was taught as a fundamental part of her growing up, she will often jump to that line of thinking more easily than any other. it's sad. i know it's not right, and i support her in unlearning that, but it's difficult. abuse in early childhood doesn't teach the kids how to deal with their emotions or communicate or understand how the world works, it just confuses and hurts them. it hurts them for life.

i feel bad for your "friend" because he obviously has issues to work on. i have known many people who struggle with their sexual identity and in the process, they are very anti-gay. it's such a struggle that people do deny it, any way they can just to "prove" to themselves or anyone around them that they are NOT gay. well, i hope that more people will learn to accept everyone as they are. love is not wrong.

you really shouldn't listen to him. i think you handled the detergent situation really well! good job. there are so many ways to teach people, it's much better to be real and communicate rather than hurt the child - that wouldn't teach him anything but violence as an answer or tool. communication is much more effective, and it will help teach him how to learn well. i'm so glad you care about your son the way you do. he is so special. =) i hope you can continue to show him that the world is interesting and complicated, but that he does have a place in it, and he does deserve respect and love no matter what. life happens, and he also needs to learn how to deal with the hard things too, including emotions like anger and sadness. you've definitely experienced life a lot more than he has, so help him learn from the lessons you've been taught and the experiences that have helped you grow.

take care!

[ceje]

Okay I'll be honest I spank my kids. But it doesn't happen that often even with four under the age of 8. Its normally after 3 warnings and time outs. And only for something serious like hitting the dog (we have several animals and teach them to respect all things living) or doing something dangerous. And we get told repeatedly how well behaved our childern are. That being said for the most part I think my eldest girl has been spanked maybe 10 times in her whole life the baby got her first spanking about 2 weeks ago ( I bawled more than she did) and the boys well they're boys they tend to do things without thinking. Every child is an individual and must be treated as such. One might respond to a stern look and break down and one might keep pushing till a lesson is reinforced. You and your husband are the parents not a "friend". Just remember your job as a parent is to love your child and groom him for his adultlife in the real world.

[Rhapsody]

While I agree that spanking is not for everyone and that no one should be quilted into using spanking as a means of discipline if they are not comfortable with it - I still believe in a little hand tap with the word no when a small child is doing some thing out of line, I believe in not letting a little one get their way simply because they are crying or throwing a fit... time out out on the big old couch is another way to stop a child from doing wrong.

What form of discipline or redirection are you presently using?

[tim999]

hi shadow--to be honest your post confuses me--you quote mother teresa, and state you have ptsd, and you want to know if you should beat your son? sounds like you already know what to do--you need marriage counseling. good luck to you and your family.

[AShadow721]

Originally Posted by ceje

And only for something serious like hitting the dog (we have several animals and teach them to respect all things living) or doing something dangerous.

Do you not see that's using violence to counter act violence? And damage to counter act damage? You may not get that point across the best way if you hit a child for hitting. It's punishing them for doing something that you're doing to punish them. If the adult hits them, than why would they think it's so wrong to hit the dogs? And hitting them doesn't really teach them to respect all living things, because it's not very respectful to them. The parents are doing what they are punishing for, what they are trying to teach the child is wrong and disrespectful. And for them doing something dangerous, it's hurting them so they don't hurt themselves. It just doesn't really make sense. Maybe spanking them doesn't do as much harm as these serious things could, but there are other ways to discipline and teach them those things are wrong or dangerous. I know it's probably a spurt of the moment thing where you get scared and freak out, because you don't want your child to get hurt. It sounds ilike you don't like it or want to spank your kids. You know what? You don't have to. You can discipline them in other ways. I'm not trying to judge anyone, I just want to explain that the things that were taught to us as children, may not make much sense. A lot of people think that they have to spank their children, because that the way they grew up and they don't understand that you can do other things, because their parents didn't do other things. It's thousands of years of bad information, now we know it's effects and that it doesn't make much sense to do this. Just a couple decades ago, nearly all parents thought that spanking was a good way to parent, now half of the parents in the United States don't believe in it. And more and more countries are outlawing it.

[AShadow721]

Originally Posted by tim999

hi shadow--to be honest your post confuses me--you quote mother teresa, and state you have ptsd, and you want to know if you should beat your son? sounds like you already know what to do--you need marriage counseling. good luck to you and your family.

I do have the answer already. I was just very upset and triggered by what my friend said. This is the "Caregivers Support" forum. It's mostly for support, not answers. All parents get bad and/or unwanted advice from other people. It's a common thing to go though. I just wanted support in my opinion, to feel validated. I would never think or question whether I should beat my son and if someone told me to do that on here, I wouldn't listen to them.

Why do you think I need marriage counseling?

[AShadow721]

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

What form of discipline or redirection are you presently using?

I use timeouts and words. The timeouts I use are calming timeouts. I sit with him to keep him up in the chair (he's only 18 months old, he doesn't really understand to stay sitted) and I pat his stomach and count to 60-90. That is for fits. Also when he is tired and throwing a fit. I put him in bed, leave the room, and close the door. Then he falls asleep.... I usually use words. And usually I'll use a one word or two word phrase. Like if something is dangerous, I say sternly, "Dangerous". If he throws something or lets say spills out cereal all over the floor I say "Not nice", then I pick the things up, if there's more than one thing he'll start to help me. I don't think I should say bad, because that may make him think he's a bad person. If he writes on the wall I say "No, paper", "We write on paper". If he stands up in his highchair (there's no belt on it), I say "Down". If he starts climbing down the steps when we're outside on the porch I say "Up". He undertsands most of this and he usually listens if I say the word a few times. It's harder work to use words than it is to physically discipline, but my son is worth it, and it's also better for my own well being.

[tim999]

hi shadow-- your post stated: "Also, I spoke to my husband about this and he said that what my friend meant by "free spirit", is that he will grow up to be gay. So apparently, not beating your kids will make them gay. Well, I guess I wasn't physically abused enough..... "

I forgot to note your posted mood as "Goofy".
Perhaps I took your post too seriously and replied based on non-goofiness.
My bad.
-peace and good luck

[AShadow721]

I was being sarcastic. I'm saying apparently that's what my friend thinks. I am an in-between bisexual and I won't deny that and I don't think sexuality has anything to do with physical abuse. Also, my sexuality has nothing to do with my marriage. I love my husband and I'm faithful to him always and don't plan to ever not be. Also, if my son is gay, that would not bother me and I wouldn't beat him to make him not be gay. That is a terrible reason for anyone to abuse or punish their children.

[Tatyana2009]

Hitting a child, spanking, slapping, kicking, shoving, etc is wrong! I am strongly against it. It does not teach the child anything but humilates, hurts, causes shame, guilt and panic. It destroys self esteem and self confidence and damages relationships and trust.

If your kids has done something you do not like - explain why you do not like it. Show a better way. Talk in a severe manner and tell him/her that even when you are angry you still love them. The kid then has an internal incentive to change, respects you and themselves.

You do not want to reject your kid the way you were rejected. In my view - people who spank their kids commit a crime against humanity.

[AShadow721]

Yes, thank you so much for your input Tatyana. You are so right. You know, certain forms of spousal corporal punishment were once commonly accepted and legal? This was only decades ago. Now, if a spouse would hit another, they would be taken to jail for assault. But it's still legal in the U.S. and many other counties to hit innocent children in our homes. It makes absolutely no sense to me. It has been outlawed in schools and daycares and correctional facilties. If the people wouldn't want other people hitting their children, then WHY would they hit them themselves? Could they step back and take a look at what they're doing from outside their window? If they did, I'm sure they would feel ashamed and never want to do it again. Why do we not have laws to protect our children in America and many other countries, but we have laws to protect ourselves from the same exact thing? These children are precious and they're defenceless against adults and voiceless since they cannot vote. If children could vote, I'm sure spanking would be outlawed from the whole world. Why do these parents expect respect from the children they do not respect? The parent is the adult, the role model, they need to show respect first to set the example, and they need to teach their kids that hitting is not right and violence is never an answer.

[Tatyana2009]

I am with you 100% on this Shadow! Its very sad and infuriating.

A child is helpless and is dependent on the parent. Parents who abuse this unequal state of power are sick people. And they create another generation of sick people. Its the lowest thing to hit your child.