[Harper]

My wife Charlotte is depressed. She's been living in this small town with me for a couple of years and she thinks no likes her.

She has no old friends that she can lean on, either.

She hates her job.

Her parents live 30 minutes away, but rarely call or visit to see us or their year-old granddaughter.

No matter what advice I try to give, she always turns it into the most negatiive, self-depricating angle, i.e., If she's saying someone doesn't like her, I remind her that maybe that person was having a bad day or that maybe 'that's just the way they are', and she'll say "why are you defending them?". She has a dizzying proficiency at this.

She says that even I, her husband, am not her friend because I cannot relate to her. And the truth is, I can't (at least in identifying with her depression). I've been blessed with many, many friends and a great family and many long, LONG standing friendships.

I'm also a very positive person, while she is extremely negative. When she says the glass is half-empty, I try to explain how it's half-full and she gets pissed because "I'm always rebutting her". In truth, I'm just explaining to her a different way of looking at things.

There are many, real reasons for her to be down. We have some serious financial problems due to some bad investment decisions I made before we met.

She had to take full time work at a bank to help out. She hates the job and the fact that it keeps her away from her daughter.

Our daughter is incredible, but because she was a 'surprise' 4 months into our dating, we haven't had much time to enjoy being together.

She says our daughter is the only thing keeping her going.

And last night, after going to a party (this usually triggers an 'episode', especially when drinking is involved) she made the comment that "nobody would notice if I dissappeared".

She says she has never been suicidal, and I believe her. But I know she is depressed. (She was actually diagnosed with bi-polar just before we met, but I think it's depression--the mood swings aren't dramatic or random).

Honestly, I don't think she needs medication. I think she just needs a friend to bleed her heart out to. Someone who'll help her to see the good in herself, instead of only the bad. Someone who'll show her she is worth being loved, not just by others, but by herself.

In other words, I don't think she hates herself because she's depressed. I think she's depressed because she hates herself.

And she hates herself because she places more importance on what she thinks others think of her, rather that what she thinks of herself. And she doesn't think much of herself, either.

She says she's tried 'so hard' to make friends here for the last two years, but no one reciprocates. The truth is, there are only two or three people here she has spent any one-on-one time with at all, and maybe only once or twice at that. Certainly not enough to build a real relationship.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I love her dearly and want to help her, but she doesn't want my help, just my pity.

Any advice/consolation would be great. Thank you.

[MyBestKids2]

((((((((HarperandCharlotte))))))))))

I have no advice, only consolation.

I think its super that you are so understanding and seem to have insight into her illness. I wish we were all so fortunate to have someone on our side!

[lenjan]

I would suggest you try to get your wife into therapy. It will serve the purpose of having someone to talk to, and it's better than a friend because therapists are trained to counteract negative self-talk, etc and help the person find ways to be more realistic about themselves.

It's admirable of you to stick by her -- lots of "significant others," whether married or not, flee when depression comes into the picture.

Alcohol is a depressant, so you might want to help her avoid drinking.

There is more than one variety of bipolar, btw, so she might still be so. I rarely get fully manic, but I'm still bipolar.

Good luck -- PM if I can be of more help.

Candy

How about a therapist? An objective and kind listener? Could you talk to her about that? Good luck, xoxox pat

[(JD)]

Welcome, again, Harper, to PC. I'm sorry about the circumstances that bring you here though.

Depression is a medical illness. How long has it been since your spouse has had a complete physical? Is there a medical doctor that she trusts, that she will disclose her depression to?

I think you might be right when you say she's depressed because she hates herself. But it can be a vicious cycle. Anger is often at the root of depression. Being angry at oneself, hating oneself, can being the cycle. It's rarely one thing though, as you implied.

You do well to continue to gently counter any of her errant thinkings. There's a list of 10 basic cognitive distortions at the top of the Psychotherapy Forum. CBT (cognitive behavior therapy) IMO, is a must to help depressed people learn to counter their thinking.

Depression tells the person lies, about everything and everyone. She can't help it without learning how to counter those lies, and begin to climb up out of the darkness.

Good wishes!

[Harper]

Thank you all for the kind words and advice.

This past weekend we took a trip to see our parents and she had a meltdown on the first evening.

The good news is she shook it off and we made it home in a pretty good mood (considering my mother drives her nuts).

She is progressing but, like all of us in one way or another, she has a long way to go.

Thanks again.

[Ch_e_ll_e]

Wow...we could be the same person! I have a husband who sounds just like your wife; self-deprecating, low self-esteem, negative thoughts, etc...

He recently went to his Dr. and is now seeking help for depression. That's good, right? Well, yes. But now that it is an official diagnosis, it is stuck in his head and seems to have made things worse. I am hoping this is temporary and that once treatment has begun (we go to the center Monday) things will improve.

I feel your angst. It is SO difficult being the only parent who is truly present and "in the moment" I sometimes feel like I am doing this by myself, then resent him for not being involved.

((((hugs))))

[wickedwings]

((((harper))))) it's wonderful that you want to support your wife. i have treatment-resistant chronic major depression (don't worry, there are still options). and my hubby tries to help me, which i am so grateful for. i can be quite negative some days. normally, i'm not a negative person, but depression can make a person into a negative person. cognitive therapy really would be helpful in teaching her how to turn her thoughts around. it helped me tremendously. it has kept me alive, as well. it won't cure depression, but it can keep it from spiralling out of control. i wish you, your daughter, and your wife the best.

[Annalina]

I think it is natural that you two got together. It´s probable that she liked your vitality and popularity etc. but now she sees you as an enemy, not as a complementary partner :-(
From all the personal and other experience I have gathered I would say that there are basically 2 ways to approach depression:
1. spiritual
2. discipline
ad 1)
I don´t know if You have heard about Viktor Frankl´s logotherapy school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl), or so-called existential analysis. It´s a therapeutic approach developed by a doctor who went thought all the terrors of holocaust. I am not sure how popular it is outside Europe but at least You could get her some book by Frankl?

It may sound very weird but I actually read a lot of books on war and suffering in my teens and it eased my depression and loss of faith.

The other thing is pastoral counselling. I don´t know how she feels about religion, but that is THE thing to give one the sense of meaning. Quite a lot of doctors agree that religious awakening, rebirth can save hopeless cases. (I´m not saying that your wife is a hopeless case )

That´s also something that keeps me away from depression these days.

2.
Discipline. Depression is to a great degree a bio-psycho-social thing, affected by just like everything - diet, sleep etc. This down-to-earth approach is sometimes vital, for example when the depressed person stops eating, cannot do daily stuff etc. I gather that with her it is not the case but she definitely needs some discipline to build a satisfactory life. Discipline and patience is THE thing depressed people lack. What about getting her involved in some interest group, local church or anything - if there´s a self-help group or group therapy that would be the best thing. Or maybe some children-centered activity? Like maternity centre? (I don´t know how this would be called in the USA.)

Hope this helps, take care!

[Swedish]

Hi!

I am sorry about your wife. Has she been for this long? I was thinking, because your child is so young, maybe she suffers from post natal depression? It is quite common. I suggest you talk to a counsellor of some sort, she obviously needs someone to talk to. What does she think about her possibly being depressed? Would she agree to get some help? It is a common reaction not having a social life when you are depressed. Maybe you can show her what you wrote on this site to her to make her understand that you are truly worried? Maybe she can be a part of this community as well?

[Rose3]

if she doesn't like her job, can she find a different, more interesting job?

there are online therapists - people who are trained and able to provide undivided attention, towards solutions

((((((((((((harper)))))))))))

You sound like such a wonderful husband. My poor husband has suffered through my depression and in the end it nearly split us up. I hope you can get help for her, as in therapy, it may be delayed post natal depression as someone said, it doesn't necessarily happen straight after birth. In my opinion a womans self esteem does go down after childbirth, but, as much as you try to build her up, if she is really depressed, she really needs proffessional help. I wish you all the luck in the world, feel free to pm me any time. I wish my husband could have shared pc with me, he may have understood things better.

jinnyann xoxoxoxoxo

[EJ711]

Harper,

By trying to cheer your wife up, you are not validating her feelings of isolation and depression. Wives need to have their feelings validated.

In Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus it talks about this fundamental difference between men and women. Women just want to talk to their husbands or boyfriends and have them listen. Men, when they hear their beloved women having a problem their first instinct is to want to fix it. Women just want them to listen and understand.

Has Charlotte always lived in a small town?

My husband and I have been living in a small town for going on five years, and I hate it. He loves it! It has almost ended our marriage of almost 35 years.

EJ

[Harper]

Thank you all so much. There is some great advice in there. All of it is much appreciated. The suggestion for cognitive therapy really hits the mark, in my opinion. I truly believe that if she changes her thought "patterns" she could be a much happier person and have some friends.

The last comment regarding "Men are from Mars" is also right on. I've been screwing that one up from day one and I still haven't gotten it right.

Of course, my long absence here (on this board) has been because things have been improving--a little. Charlotte has made some great strides in recognizing her problems (and her successes).

She has a new, less-stressful, part-time job.

She's made great improvements in dealing with her "demons". She hasn't flown off the handle in quite a while. She's been learning to control herself--learning when to shut up before you say something in the heat of the moment that you might regret. She's coming to terms with her parents' lack of grand-parental involvement, which still hurts, of course. The same goes for her sister.

After most 'episodes', she comes around and apologizes (in earnest). She knows the things she does and she's VERY concerned about adversely affecting our daughter. Many times she said she hopes our daughter "is like you, not me."

But she also hasn't shaken those tendancies that illuminate her anger and impatience, especially with me. If she's not having a good day, it manifests itself in a few different ways. There's the complaining, obviously. But then there are the demeaning remarks (hey, I know I'm not perfect, but give me a break) and the cat-and-mouse arguments (where she constantly is shifting the focus to keep me off-balance. i.e. She shifts it to her because EVERYTHING'S her fault, or onto me because it's ALL about me. It's dizzying and unbelievably aggravating. Plus, sometimes she won't let me respond). By my nature, I don't like heated arguments, but I REALLY hate heated arguments with my wife!

There were some classic moments tonight. I'm changing our daughter, who's pooped. I lay her on top of part of her pajama bottoms to do it. Bad call on my part, admittedly. She says, "Oh, that's brilliant", and reminds me of how often she's told me about that and says things like, "wow, I must be a genius! How do I do this all by myself when you're not here!". I've more-or-less gotten used to comments like these, but I don't like it when our daughter is exposed to it.

Later, as I'm cooking her dinner (which I do sometimes anyway, but she is sick). She lets out a big cough. When she's done, she sniffs and I realize how stuffy she is. I ask her if she wants a Sudafed (which I purchased for her earlier). In a very methodical, sarcastic, matter-of-fact way, she proceeds to let me know what a dumbass I am for suggesting that (for her cough). And she's not even being angry--almost like she's glad to let me know what a thoughtless, selfish, POS idiot she thinks I am.

At this point, I snap. I try to argue with her, but she starts the whole cat-and-mouse thing and starts talking over me. I get super-pissed (very rare) and I go into the kitchen where I do the very unwise thing and start cutting the chicken while I'm in a rage, breathing heavy--really angry.

I plate her food and bring it to her, but she's locked me out of the bedroom. Fine. I go in to wolf down a few bites and go for a drive (I'm a little cooler at this point).

An ongoing issue is that she needs a break from her daughter (natural). I do my share to give her a break (especially in the morning, so Charlotte can sleep in), but because I'm constantly in fear of pissing her off by doing something wrong, I'm always asking her "should I do (this, or that)"? Of course, when this happens, she doesn't feel like she's getting much of a break. (And, no, I don't wake her up to ask her questions).

Typically, I'm very non-confrontational and patient, but I just snapped tonight. I know I need to improve as a husband and a father (including being more thoughtful and anticipating needs) but I just got tired of hearing it. I've always been a little overly-sensitive, and I guess I was again tonight. I suppose that makes me a selfish little wuss.

Sorry for the long rant. I suppose this is my therapy.

Thanks for all your well-wishes and advice. I wish you the best and may your glass always be half-full!

[Harper]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
EJ711 said:
Harper,

By trying to cheer your wife up, you are not validating her feelings of isolation and depression. Wives need to have their feelings validated.

In Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus it talks about this fundamental difference between men and women. Women just want to talk to their husbands or boyfriends and have them listen. Men, when they hear their beloved women having a problem their first instinct is to want to fix it. Women just want them to listen and understand.

Has Charlotte always lived in a small town?

My husband and I have been living in a small town for going on five years, and I hate it. He loves it! It has almost ended our marriage of almost 35 years.

EJ

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
As I stated before, she has some very legitimate reasons to be unhappy, and maybe I need to tell her this more often. However, I worry that validating the problems more and more, they will become harder to correct. I guess this is my problem.

And, yes, I'm constantly thinking of ways to "fix" things.

She has not always lived in a small town. For the most part, I have.

We are planning to move to a bigger city, but because we have such an outstanding daycare situation (primarly because of the trust that's built up), we want to wait until our daughter is a little older (this is Charlotte's idea, which I agree with). Our daughter is now 18 months.

[Rhapsody]

The best thing my husband and best friend did for me ten years ago when I was clinically depressed was to get me in to see a good T - and now today I thankful for what they did, even if I did fight them all the way to the T office doors and a few inpatient stays.

[Harper]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Swedish said:
Hi!

I am sorry about your wife. Has she been for this long? I was thinking, because your child is so young, maybe she suffers from post natal depression? It is quite common. I suggest you talk to a counsellor of some sort, she obviously needs someone to talk to. What does she think about her possibly being depressed? Would she agree to get some help? It is a common reaction not having a social life when you are depressed. Maybe you can show her what you wrote on this site to her to make her understand that you are truly worried? Maybe she can be a part of this community as well?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> She was depressed long (a few years) before we had the baby. However, I think she may have (had) post-natal depression, as well.

[Harper]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Rose3 said:
if she doesn't like her job, can she find a different, more interesting job?

there are online therapists - people who are trained and able to provide undivided attention, towards solutions

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Any you woud recommend?

[Harper]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Rhapsody said:
The best thing my husband and best friend did for me ten years ago when I was clinically depressed was to get me in to see a good T - and now today I thankful for what they did, even if I did fight them all the way to the T office doors and a few inpatient stays.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
She's had bad experiences with therapists, but we've visited one together a few times. She's also seen him-one-on one a time or two.

She really resists it and likes to claim we can't afford it. Yet she's all about me giving up opportunties to make more money (which we desperately need) if it means me being around the house more (or, more specifically, not out of the house more).

[EJ711]

Harper,

Someone may have already suggested this, but have you asked your wife to list on a piece of paper all of the things that are bothering her. Then have her put them in order starting with what she feels most depressed about to the least.

Then maybe you can help make changes that will help her to feel more in control of her life.

EJ

[Harper]

Posted from my journal tonight. Take from it what you can.

I know we are all dealing with stuff. All I can offer this board are the occasional posts like this (my life has become insanely busy). Hopefully I will one day have more time to offer someone else some comfort and advice. But for now I can only share my experiences.

Thanks to all for your support and advice! I've taken it all to heart and it HAS made a difference.

Friday, February 29, 2008

Charlotte can’t handle her family. They work to get under her skin, shame on them. She lets them, shame on her.

I went to bed. I sat up and had a few beers and thought about all this. I went to sleep around 10 and woke up around 2:15 to pee. Now I can’t sleep and it’s 3.

#1 and above all else is my concern for our daughter, Mya. She is this perfect, empty little vessel that we can fill up with whatever we want. 99% of the time Charlotte fills her up with the good stuff—love and smarts and fun. But then there are times like last night where she lets her insecurities and boorish behavior come spilling out and we both know that, eventually, this will affect Mya.

Seeing her mother’s debilitating insecurities could very well motivate her to harbor/nurture her own insecurities down the line, affecting how she sees her self as well as her family relationships (whatever we let her have as well as her own down the road) as well as her friendships and intimate relationships.

Seeing her mom behave like that might make her think such behavior is acceptable towards the one they love. It’s o.k. to be mean, bitter and sarcastic towards your husband.

And the thing about this that’s most frustrating is that Charlotte KNOWS it’s bad for Mya, yet she keeps doing it. For a long time I’ve felt honest in assuaging Charlottes’s concerns about how these occasional, but regular, outbursts will affect her daughter. But Mya is almost 2 now and halfway through the most formative years of her life. Something must change, and soon or I fear some damage will be done.

As far as what led to the outburst last night, Charlotte’s family clearly scarred her growing up, especially her sisters. It’s like when they get together, Charlotte’s emotions retreat to when she was 13 again. It only took a difference of opinion as to whether Ava was hungry or not (her stepsister and stepmother saying, “She’s fine”) to send Jen spiraling downward (although it’s clear her stepsister’s impending visit started the process). Outwardly, Charlotte kept her composure. I may have not been paying super close attention, but I didn’t catch any obvious social ripples of awkwardness or hostility. But later, in the car, all hell broke loose. Even our daycare provider, who we love, is known for saying the kids are “fine”, but it’s clearly different when her stepsister/stepmother say it. Obviously, some serious stuff happened growing up.

When is Charlotte going to grow up and stop feeling like the abused baby sister? She’s 35 now. 40? 45? 55? When is she going to be able to tell herself, “That’s unfortunate that they don’t share my opinion, but this is my life and my baby” and let it go at that?

As for my role in all this, was it my fault that Charlotte had the meltdown? I guess to a degree. I surely hoped that Charlotte would not let such things get to her. After all, she’s made some good progress in dealing with her insecurities. I’ve gotten better about anticipating these episodes in advance of holidays, family gatherings and social engagements (even with people she likes). It was certainly a mistake that I didn’t anticipate it this time. Whatever her family did to her, it was clearly very, very scarring and Jen needs my support and protection ESPECIALLY AROUND HER FAMILY. I need to be more vigilant.

But how Charlotte behaves in the presence of her daughter is solely her responsibility.

We have 2 options—1) We can cut the family visits out, so Mya doesn’t get to know her cousins. Or, 2) Charlotte can stop feeling like the abused little sister. I know it’s easier said than done, but I’d prefer #2. Not so much because I think Mya needs to know her cousins (I do), but because if Charlotte can get over that hurdle, she might actually find some happiness.

[EJ711]

Harper,

What struck me after reading your post was that the roles established in our biological families are very hard to break out of. Usually it takes a lot of therapy, and support to break free.

I personally think it would help your wife more if you were understanding and sympathetic about how hard it is to put the past behind her.

Yes, Mya is at risk here in this situation. Maybe you could hold Mya when your wife is working through her pain in a public manner. Maybe you could say to Mya, "Mommy is processing something that happened to her. Don't worry it will be all right. Mommy is strong and she will be all right. Don't worry. We both love you very much."

EJ

[Harper]

Thank you, EJ. I try my best to understand what it is she's going through, but because I grew up with an emotionally stable family, it's nearly impossible for me to relate.

Meanwhile, I'm working my butt off to pull us out of our financial problems and I'm too exhausted to be a good partner most of the time. I used to cry with her, but I can't even do that anymore.

I love her very much and I've tried very hard to support and help her. But learning to love herself is something only she can do. That's the kicker. If her self-esteem wasn't so low (due primarily to her upbringing), she'd be a lot happier and it would be much easier for me to be a better partner.

I know it sounds like a lot of excuses, but I've been put through the wringer the last couple of years and I'm just beat.

The bottom line is--I can't make her love herself.

Mya is o.k. I do explain to her (after the fact) that Mommy doesn't like getting angry and she loves daddy very much. She's just having a very hard time.

Mya is pretty unaffected right now, but I'm starting to worry if this behavior continues.