[Rapunzel]

T says that I mistreat people and use them, and that's why I never seem to be able to keep friends for very long. I have never had an equal relationship with normal give and take. It doesn't balance. I either act helpless and needy, or I put myself in a helper role (at least predominantly).

Apparently it isn't okay to ask someone who has a truck to help me with getting hay for my animals (my truck broke down last summer and I can't afford a new one), and it isn't okay to ask someone to watch over my kids when my husband and I both have to be out of town at the same time for work. I'm supposed to arrange things so I don't have to go at the same time as him, but that would mean I couldn't go to the workshops that my employer has paid for me to attend, that I asked for. I guess I shouldn't have asked.

The problem is that I don't reciprocate enough. I keep taking more than I ever give. But I'm wondering if maybe I over-report what I take and under-report what I give. Is it possible that I don't value anything that I have to offer? T would never let me take that back or change my story that way though.

I don't want to be a bad person or selfish and needy and dependent. I want to be responsible and I want to give back as much or more than I receive.

Last week I just figured out at least part of why I'm like that. I was dependent and clingy with my friends in elementary school because I needed them around so that the bullies wouldn't beat me up on the way home from school. Somehow I held onto the idea that friends are supposed to take care of me and protect me. And I felt too small and weak and helpless to do anything for them. I never had anything to offer.

I don't know what I'm asking. I'm not supposed to ask for help with therapy stuff either, but T doesn't believe that I can actually stop doing that. In some things, I'm resourceful and good at solving problems, but not when it comes to this stuff. At least not when it's me. It's so much easier to point out options for someone else.

Sorry for rambling aimlessly.

Rap

[allthegirls6]

Rapunzel,

It seems an awfully harsh thing for a T to say to you. If my T said such things I would be very hurt. I cant see whats wrong with asking for help, isnt that the mark of being human?

I dont think ive ever seen you mistreat or use people here. In fact, i think you give a lot to a lot of people.

Its possible I used to take for granted how much I do for other people. Then I was doing the Courage to Heal with my therapist at that time and we were doing the activities - celebrate your accomplishments. I had two things on my list before going into the therapy session when I came out I had two pages because even the littlest thing like I gave my neighber a penny she lacked for her milk at the store. I remembered to mention my friiend took me shopping but neglected to say she was short on cash and so I gave her the penny and then bought her lunch on the way home. To therapists every minute detail of doing something for another person counts. Kids? you have kids - oh boy can you have a field day with listing all the things you do for another person

Friends? My therapist did not realize I had friends because I don't discuss my friends in therapy. They are not the reasion I am in therapy so I don't discuss them. A couple friends names come up - one my ex therapist and her name only comes up in reference to what we did in therapy and the other friend is a part of my therapy process and has been for just about if not more than the 5 years I have been in therapy this round. My past therapist and I included her in on my activities and so on. If my friends are not directly involved in what I am doing at the moment therapy wise they are not mentioned in my therapy session.

[Rapunzel]

Here we go again. I really should know better than developing a bad attitude about her, because I always pay for it. It apparently is not okay to ask someone to watch my kids, especially for an extended period of time. Maybe she's right (as usual) and I do ask too much. Maybe all of you would get tired of me too IRL.

Can I tell you the current situation? It might get long.

There are these workshops that I've looked forward to for quite a while. Last year I went to just one, and hoped I could do more this year. When the catalog came a few months ago, I picked out the ones that would be relevant to my job (stuff about young children, and parents, and attachment). Since my graduate program doesn't have any classes particularly about children, and I want to work with children (at least some of the time), I'm grabbing at the opportunity to fill the gaps. There were other workshops that I also really wanted, including one on DBT, and one on self-injury, but I limited myself to just the three that were applicable to work and that my employer would pay for.

Then I found out that my husband was going out of town for work also, the same week as my workshops. But he said we could work it out and I shouldn't let that stop me. We have three kids, ages 8, 12, and 14. Not quite old enough to leave alone for 5 days. We also have livestock, which the kids take care of. My kids really do take care of themselves pretty well. They have a routine, they can cook and get their own meals. They can clean up, although they normally don't bother without a lot of nagging and being deprived of dessert until they do it. Watching them won't really be hard.

Originally, I thought maybe the kids could go to friends' houses and have sleep-overs for the week, coming back home to do the chores (farming them out to various friends so nobody had to take all three of them at once). That didn't work out though. A neighbor family with kids my kids' ages and younger did agree to watch the kids though, and let them go home and do chores They can stay home most of the day as long as someone responsible is in charge and keeping track of them - we'll have a cell phone too so they can call us any time.

I told the other family that it is important for me to reciprocate, and to let me know what I can do for them that is equivalent. I'll offer them some goats, since they have expressed interest in having goats. I'll also leave money with them for groceries. And I would be willing to babysit for them too.

I should tell you that I have a history of expecting too much of people, and more than I can even count have gotten fed up with me and never wanted to have anything to do with me again. I was clueless, although T contends that I have no excuse for not knowing what I did wrong, and she doesn't believe that I could have not known. So this is a big issue, and the only difference is that this time I'm more aware of it and I honestly intend to make sure that I do my part.

I think that T thinks I should cancel going to my workshops, or pay somebody more than I can afford for watching the kids. I don't get paid well for my job, and beyond the tuition for the workshops, the other expenses are all mine. She won't tell me though. She's totally into me being responsible and solving my own problems.

What do you think? Am I asking too much? Should I just stay home? My employer would be out the money for the workshops.

I hate getting into this mode with T, where I feel like I'm under attack, and I get a bad attitude and although I've been trying to go along with it and see what she's trying to get me to learn about myself, eventually I'm fighting her and complaining about her and being obnoxious. I almost want to quit therapy, but if I quit now I would start hating her, and I don't want to hate her. And I still have so far to go, and I don't want to get stuck again.

Thanks ATG for thinking well of me. I wish that I were like that IRL, not just here. I want T to think that I'm a good person, and I want her to like me, and I don't think I can ever be good enough.

Myself, she really is not into celebrating my accomplishments. I don't know if that's because I don't do the right kinds of things, or if it's because she expects me to handle building self-esteem.

I'm trying to learn how to have friends, but I have done it wrong for my whole life. I've been learning by learning how to have online friends. IRL is harder, but I thought I was starting to make some progress there too. Apparently IRL all I do is use people though.

[Fuzzybear]

Hey Rap I am not really sure that I should post my reply on here Please know that you have my support though

((((((((((((((((( Rap )))))))))))))))))

[Rapunzel]

(((((((Fuzzy)))))))

Thanks. You can post or PM if you want to. I'm always interested in what you have to say.

Rap

To me it sounds like you are doing a TERRIFIC job. on the child care problem - Check with the laws where you are. Here a child of 13 is considered old enough to babysit and stay home alone. Maybe your 14 year old can watch the others. You would be amazed at how resonsible a 13 year old becomes when they are told hey theres a little bit of money or othe benefit to you doing this.

No I don't see a reason why your therapist doesn't approve of the children staying with friends during the time you are out. Children and teens spend time with their friends anyway.

Don't worry too much. a person doesn't always know why friends get upset with them. One time a friend and I didn't speak for a month when I finally called to ask what was going on she picked up the phone saying - its about time you called are you done being mad at me? I was clueless and said what Im not mad at you. It turned out I was having a bad day and she was trying to help and I snapped at her.

Another time I there was a problem with a friend and to this day she has never told me what happened.

Friendships are never completely hunky dory 100% of the time one or the other has a bad day and even the smallest of things can be blown up and so on.

Hang in there.

[Rapunzel]

(((((((((((myself))))))))))))
((((((((((((ATG))))))))))))))

Thanks for the support.

You're welcome and hugs back atcha.

[January]

((((((((( Rap ))))))))))

Neighbors usually do help each other with their children. I would certainly offer the neighbors goats, babysitting, taking their kids for a week also, or whatever else you can do for them.

Friendship is indeed, a give and take situation, but if you don't have those skills, someone needs to teach you. You can't just "know" something. Forgive me, but I really do think you need to see another t at least long enough to find out if yours is good for you. It sounds like you need some solid training and guidence and your t is not offering that to you.

Please take good care of you.

Hugs,

Jan

[Fuzzybear]

I agree with Jan.... I do not think that this degree of harshness is the only way that you can be "helped". I can see your therapist doing a lot of black and white thinking. At the very least I would tell her that I am taking a break from therapy. Although starting again with a new therapist stinks, you have made gains and the process won't take so long. If you shop around, it is possible to find a therapist who doesn't emotionally attack you under the guise of "helping"....

You could also work through your feelings about your (former) therapist and wouldn't then end up hating her for being human and a less than perfect therapist.

((((((((((((( Rap )))))))))))))))

[gardenergirl]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Rapunzel said:
Here we go again. I really should know better than developing a bad attitude about her, because I always pay for it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but given some things you've said before, I can't help but think that is another red flag. If she is making you pay, that is so far removed from a therapetic intervention...so much like her own needs and issues are bleeding into your therapy...ack. That must feel really crappy.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
But he said we could work it out and I shouldn't let that stop me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I think that's very important. I think he's likely to be in a better position to assess what's okay and not okay for your family than someone outside the family. Your husband sounds like he's supportive of your education. (sounds like cool workshops, too!)

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I told the other family that it is important for me to reciprocate, and to let me know what I can do for them that is equivalent. I'll offer them some goats, since they have expressed interest in having goats. I'll also leave money with them for groceries. And I would be willing to babysit for them too.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

That sounds nice. My husband and I often ask our neighbors to water plants if needed, generally watch over the house, and to bring in our mail and newspapers if we don't stop them when we go out of town. If it's for more than a day or two, we try to bring them back a token gift to thank them---something from the place we visited, or a bottle of wine, etc. Or we'll have them over for dinner.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I was clueless, although T contends that I have no excuse for not knowing what I did wrong, and she doesn't believe that I could have not known. So this is a big issue, and the only difference is that this time I'm more aware of it and I honestly intend to make sure that I do my part.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm not sure how telling someone "they should have known" is really helpful. I would feel pretty annoyed, hurt, put off, not understood, hmm, probably other things, too if I heard that. You can't know what you "should have known". And if your T says she doesn't believe you, well, how does that affect your relationship? I'd feel very frustrated, helpless, angry, and probably ready to give up if I felt my T did not believe the things I said.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I want T to think that I'm a good person, and I want her to like me, and I don't think I can ever be good enough.

Myself, she really is not into celebrating my accomplishments. I don't know if that's because I don't do the right kinds of things, or if it's because she expects me to handle building self-esteem.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hmmm, now wanting your T to like you--that's a slippery slope. I imagine that this extends to wanting others to like you, too? Such a dangerous path. It's so compelling, but it can lead so far away from our true selves. I know. I'm still trying to find my way back. It is a very free feeling, though, to move away from pleasing others (or in my case, avoiding disappointment in others) to doing and living for ourselves.

(((((((Rapunzel)))))))))

I do not believe that the side of you we see here is all that separate from who you are. I celebrate you for being you. I hope you can celebrate that as well.

Take care,

gg

Wow gardenergirl--- your post is wonderful!!! You put things into words so well!!

Rap--I agree with all gardenergirl has said.

and would like to add that I too strive for my therapist to like me and think well of me..... and also I feel as though I'll never be good enough. (though, he has tried repeatedly to convince me that he thinks I am a good person...... it just doesn't seem to sink in...... perhaps that "receiver" was broken a long
time ago --) I was wondering if maybe your T. has told you on various occasions that you are good, likeable and worthy-- but like me-- your "receiver" may not be getting the message??? just a thought.....

If however, your T. doesn't ever say nice things to you then perhaps asking yourself --what is inside you that is willing to put up with a T. that is like that---perhaps asking yourself....."Am I worthy of compliments?" ..... if not-- why not?-- and then in considering those "why nots"-- are they any worse than any other person you have met throughout your life?? we are human and humans come with flaws..... would you forgive another person for the same faults that you may see in yourself??? (sometimes I tend to be so much harder on myself than I am on others)

It seems to me that you are making a very good effort at reciprocating your neighbors kindness....... I hope your T. will give you the benefit of the doubt-- that you can do this!!

Thinking of you!

Rap--

[gardenergirl]

Thanks. I hope it's helpful.



gg

[Rapunzel]

Yes, it does help. Today I feel like giving up, but not just on therapy. I want to give up on everything. Since it's not okay to let someone babysit for that long, I ought to just cancel going to those workshops, and I may as well forget about getting a better position at work after I do that, since they won't get a refund. I ought to use my student loan check when it comes to pay them back. And I ought to forget about wanting to work with kids if I can't even take care of and be available for my own. I ought to quit my job and school and go back to being a stay-at-home mom. I have no business wanting anything that I want to do. While I'm at it, I'm also thinking I ought to donate all my sheep to the Navajo tribe. I don't do right by the sheep either, and my husband is tired of it. I'm seriously considering it.

I know I'm catastrophizing and overgeneralizing, but it feels like what I'm supposed to do right now.

I kind-of remember, probably a year and a half ago, T suggesting that I reward myself for progress like refraining from SI, and I was obnoxious and rejected that, and said I'd probably reward myself by cutting. So it's my own fault she's refusing to give me compliments and stuff. My receiver may be broken, but it's not there to receive either, and I refuse to give myself praise and approval. So I understand that, and I don't deserve anything else.

I keep needing to come back and re-read this, because my attitude is so rotten right now that I'm not taking it in very well. I do appreciate it though, and I'll keep trying.

Thanks,
Rap

[allthegirls6]

I dont see why your T is so down on your child care arrangements. They seem perfectly fine and acceptable and reasonable to me. I just sorta feel like your T is being harsh with you. It should be OK to ask for help.

Please be kind to yourself Rapunzel (let down your hair)

[drunksunflower]

rapunzel ... all i can say is that you're really sweet and lovely and giving on here.

your T sounds like she can be a bish.

only my opinion though.

[dogtanian]

i agree with gardener girl and other people on this, but to add another angle: i speak as someone who is fiercely independent, and i hate asking people for help, even friends and family BUT i fully accept that sometimes, more often than you'd expect for a loner, i have to do it. i also fully expect them to ask help of me. i would find it strange if they didn't, to be honest. one of my friends is going to be having a baby soon and i absolutely expect her to call me when her hormones are messing about, and for me to take the pressure off. i expect her to make me babysit, and i expect her and her husband to go away together, or at the same time as eachother. if it wasn't me they asked, it would be another of their friends.

i think your T is wrong on this: whether someone is ridiculously independent like i am or BPD or whatever, the whole point of friendship is give and take, and i think it sounds like you have it worked out. it sounds as though you appreciate what your friends do for you, and that you try to offer them something in return where you can. i think that often, just being friends can be repayment for doing things for someone, and to help eachother out is part of that. i think your t is making you feel unnecessarily guilty, and that's not fair on you.

[Rapunzel]

Thanks so much ATG and DSF and dogtanian, and the rest who replied before too, or even if you just read. It really feels good to have someone care about me and take my side. I should have come back and posted an update to this thread. My world got turned upside down and I couldn't even decide where to post about it.

I did go to the workshops and they were wonderful, with lots of applications I'll use professionally as well as personally. I've really been into learning about attachment, and the workshop on that was pretty amazing. I could see myself, my parents, and my parenting style in what was presented in the workshop. A lot of what I saw was not pleasant, but at least I understand it better than I did.

I gave my neighbors who watched the kids some money for whatever expenses came up. I felt like I should have given them more, and T would have certainly said I owed them more. When they said they would return what they didn't use, I said I wasn't expecting anything back. So they took my kids clothes shopping. (T asked what about my kids made them feel like they needed to do that.) They also came to my house and got the kids' rooms cleaned out (something I wasn't able to do because it made me too mad when I looked at what was in the kids' rooms). It was very nice of them, but also embarassing that they felt like they needed to do that. Being confronted with people not thinking that I provide for my kids adequately has in the past pushed me over the edge to literally wanting to die, so I was terrified of what they would say, and what T would say about it. It turned out not so bad though, and T didn't make me feel bad about it - she said it was the time to be thankful for generous neighbors, and also to reflect on what they saw to feel like needing to do what they did.

The other thing that turned my world upside down was that while we were out of town, my husband interviewed for a promotion and he got it, so now we have to sell the house and move. I think I'll refer you to my blog for more on that http://ddiamond.net Moving has been the story of my life, and we were only here for 2 years. Sometimes it is like I run away once my public image starts to fail and people can see who I really am. Next time I hope I can be more real, and also be more like who I want people to think that I am.

I really am not a good mom, and I couldn't handle being a homemaker full-time. When we moved here I re-entered the workforce and became a workaholic. Getting back into school was part of it too. I think I needed to do that, but I took it too far and have still been running away from living my own life. I will need to work after we move, and also continue school (I can transfer to a campus there). But this time I am hoping for more balance.

Moving has always been a huge disruption and I've had a hard time with it. Especially losing contact with people and having no continuity in my life. I can't tell you how much it means to have friendships that are not dependent on location in order to maintain the relationship. It's like now I have a lifeline when I didn't before. I don't have to completely start over.

Thanks again,
Rap

[(JD)]

(((((rapunzel))))

[Rapunzel]

((((((((Sky)))))))))