[LMo]

Here is a question for you all.

My husband is a yeller. I am not. When he is frustrated, he starts yelling, loudly, even publicly. I did not grow up in a household where people yelled. I got in tons of trouble on a regular basis, but I was never yelled at. Instead, I got stern 'talkin'-to's. That's how I manage my anger and frustration -- with a stern talkin-to.

So, even after being together with my husband for over 6 years, I still don't know how to respond when he yells at me.

He yells frequently -- he doesn't handle frustration well, and with all of the depression/anxiety/ADD turmoil he's been through lately, not to mention being unemployed/fired/unemployed/now in school, these have been turbulent times. Not only does he yell, but logic seems to fly out the window and he gets 'stuck' on a particular aspect of the conflict, and won't let go, even after we have voiced the words of resolution -- he'll bring up the same problem several minutes later and it escalates all over again. And it doesn't take much to set him off -- it's usually something unrelated to anything that I did, and I realize it so am not taking it personally, but still, I do not want to be yelled at.

Part of me is mortified because we live in the city and it's guaranteed that our neighbors can hear us. To me, yelling = trashy way of dealing with interpersonal issues.

But more importantly is that it's not a good way of working through problems. We've spent a ton of time in therapy talking about this, and fortunately our T has gotten to see my H's surly side. Neither she nor I know how to level the emotions to the point where we can get him to talk about how to resolve the conflict du jour.

He is well aware that I do not like it when he yells. He is always sorry a few hours after he has lost his temper, and always apologizes and promises not to yell at me again.

So here's my question -- he doesn't seem to have a lot of control over his reaction when he is frustrated. He sometimes throws or breaks things, and several times he's almost killed us by getting angry while driving. I don't know if it's a maturity thing -- he is several years younger than I am, and his reactions to many frustration situations seem very teenager-like to me. But regardless, is this something that someone can EVER overcome? Is he capable of changing this mannerism?

Thanks guys,
LMo

[Perna]

Sounds like a lot of it is learned from his childhood. I think he'd actually have to "work" on it like we do with stuff in therapy? I know I have trouble with a lot of the things I picked up from growing up or have added on and I have to "want" to pay attention and do them differently. So, unless he himself sees any need to change and get help doing so I can't why he would want to? Maybe you're facilitating him by accepting his apologies each time? I'd talk to him and see if/what he wants to do about the behavior.

When my husband does things I don't like it can upset me but I try to remember it's his behavior and doesn't reflect on me. Hard though, I know, when you're around other people/neighbors.

[LMo]

Thanks Perna

I don't accept his apologies all that readily. My acceptance always comes with, well, a "stern talkin'-to" about how it needs to change, that we will discuss it in therapy, and with a warning that it drives a big wedge between us each time he does it. Someday it could turn into a wedge that splits us apart -- I'm nowhere near that point yet, but he's yelling as an outlet for his feelings -- mine don't really have anywhere to go.

He's working on a lot right now, between weekly therapy and a weekly ADD coaching session. Both professionals are aware of this behavioral pattern of his, and maybe once he's reached a point of stability in a few other areas, they can focus on his anger management.

In the meantime, argh.

thanks, Perna!

Hey.
I hate yelling because there was a lot of it when I was a kid :-(
It can be something of a reflex to yell, I understand that, but I also understand (in my better moments) that yelling doesn't help the situation it only harms it. Unfortunately one doesn't see that when one is reacting...

Part of it sounds like anger management.

What do you do when he yells? Do you yell back, or raise your voice to try and be heard? Do you withdraw?

Maybe you could have a chat to him about it when he is in a calm frame... Sounds like both of you want the yelling to stop and maybe you guys can figure out a strategy together and you can help him implement it.

One thing that could be helpful is to chat to him when he is calm and figure out something that you can say to him at the time when he is yelling at you. Something to be said in a firm voice (or the firmest voice you can manage). Something that he agrees on when he is calm. As an example... You could say something like 'You seem really upset about this right now so I'm going to walk away now and we can discuss this in a few minutes when you are feeling calmer'. And then... Walk away.

Then he needs some strategies of things he can do to help calm himself down. Things like taking a few deep breaths. Having a glass of water. Maybe doing some physical exercise like going for a run or having a punching bag or something like that.

It would be important to talk to him about how it is going to go when he is in a calm frame of mind so that you can both figure out the phrase that you are going to say (so he agrees to it when he is calm so he is less likely to feel angrier when you say it when he is upset). It is also important that he understands the rationalle for you walking away.

Dealing with stuff like this can be hard...

It is important (I should say this) to only use this strategy when he is yelling... If you are worried that he is about to start maybe there could be another phrase like 'Do you need a minute before we talk about this?'

It is important to talk about the issues... But usually progress won't be made on the issues when one person is upset and yelling also tends to upset others.

[LMo]

Thanks Alexandra - both you and Perna gave me really thoughtful and solid replies. I appreciate it.

When he yells, I guess my reaction probably doesn't help much. I usually try to counter his strange logic by correcting his facts, which in retrospect (am thinking about an incident that we went through this morning) really doesn't help. It just frustrates him even more.

The last time we talked calmly about what we could have done differently, he told me that I should tell him to go outside until he has calmed down. I like your idea of asking him for a phrase or two. I suppose there is no reason that *I* can't walk away, but... I guess I'm stubborn and don't feel that I should have to leave since I'm not the one who is acting out. But since I don't like what is happening, removing myself from the situation certainly would help, wouldn't it?

I'm going out to dinner now but will think about what you both said in the meantime, and will post back later.

Thanks

> When he yells, I guess my reaction probably doesn't help much. I usually try to counter his strange logic by correcting his facts, which in retrospect (am thinking about an incident that we went through this morning) really doesn't help. It just frustrates him even more.

Yeah. There is a saying 'it takes two to have an argument'. I wasn't sure, though, whether it is that he goes off yelling at you or if there is a period of escalation where both of you are kind of talking over the top of one another. When it gets to that point... It might be time to take a breather. Or have a two minute rule. One talks for two minutes and the other listens. The next person talks for two minutes and the other listens. That way you both feel heard without feeling like you have to say the same things over and over just at a higher volume...

> I suppose there is no reason that *I* can't walk away, but... I guess I'm stubborn and don't feel that I should have to leave since I'm not the one who is acting out.

lol.

I think it is about de-escalating the situation rather than about who's fault it is ;-)

There might be times when it is most convenient for you to leave or for him to leave... If you guys develop a pattern around this then hopefully he will notice and go calm down without your having to say anything. I guess the reason I suggested that you leave is that if you told him to go calm down he might say 'I'm perfectly calm' even though he isn't. Sometimes it can be a defensive reaction whereas if you say it then go it will just take a minute for him to realise that he was indeed wound up. I guess I'm just thinking in terms of de-escalation...

Removing yourself from the situation is also a way of saying (implicitly) 'I'm NOT going to stand for this'.

Yes people can learn to control their anger including yelling. Calling your areas mental health agencys, domestic violence agenys, your therapist and so on will get you contacts for the anger management classes that are running in your area.

[Rhapsody]

From my POV / IMHO...... I feel that your husband can change his way of dealing with stress in his life if he is willing to work on it.... but it must be his decision, not yours.

What I have learned from people watching in my thirty-nine years of living is that MALES tend to become ANGRY & LOUD when their emotions get stirred (and) FEMALES tend to CRY or WITHDRAWAL when their emotions get hurt.

.... Does this sound like what you husband might be doing, being emotionally stirred and then not really knowing how to handle it?


LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

[LMo]

Thanks again everyone. I do agree that a big part of it is anger management. Both of his MH professionals are aware of this tendency, and hopefully in time it will be addressed head-on. He has a lot going on in terms of treatment right now.

I'm not forcing him to change. I'm just asking if it is worth holding onto any hope, or if I need to let go of this expectation because it aint gonna happen.

Rhap, I can't say that I cry or withdraw when my emotions get stirred, or that his tendency is typical of men more than it is women. I know plenty of women who react to stress the way he does. But yes, you're right that he doesn't know how to handle it. I think it's a combination of poor coping mechanism, maturity (maybe?), conditioning/upbringing, and maybe to some extent, brain chemistry. But I'm no therapist so I really don't have much place doing any kind of analysis on him -- just some observations.

I guess my real question is about whether this is something I need to learn to live with, or whether there is any possibility that he could ever overcome this reaction to his frustration?

Anyway, thanks all

[LMo]

Heh - this reminds me of something that happened while on our trip in Europe last month. We were in Italy and he was frustrated because we had neither a hotel reservation (a travel style that I'm comfortable with) nor did we know the city. He got really frustrated because he didn't have a clear idea of where to go or stay, and at one point started screaming at me while we were driving around looking for a hostel or hotel.

He doesn't speak Italian. I do. At a stop light, I told him that he needed to stop yelling and pull over so we could figure out a plan. He declined to do so. I was sick of being yelled at in situations like that, because it was frequent that we couldn't find an address or didn't have a reservation (I made some - he made none - I don't mind winging it but it freaks him out... so he should get involved in the reservation process if he is uncomfortable, IMO)

So, at the next stop light, I got out of the car and took my backpack. And started walking. There was a hostel in the neighborhood, so I asked for directions and walked there by myself.

A few hours later, I went back to where we had last seen each other, and he was still there. That was the last time he yelled at me during that trip.

It's not always that simple, and frankly, I don't want it ever to get to that extreme again. I want to be a team with him and I want to stick it out, even when things are going poorly. I didn't want to walk out on him, but I was really sick of being on the receiving end of his frustration. I'm willing to work on the process part of it with him, and already I have learned to compromise a LOT to accommodate his comfort level. The yelling thing is along the lines of a showstopper. In fact, when I first met him, I thought it WAS a showstopper, but for some odd reason, I broke my own rules when it comes to him. I do love him terribly, and I realize that he doesn't have a lot of control over it. A good friend of mine volunteers at a domestic violence survivor nonprofit and she said that they offer anger management training for offenders who are parents. It's not appropriate for his situation, but she's going to ask for some referrals. But again, he is dealing with a lot of change/improvement right now, so I think this is one that will have to wait a bit until life stabilizes in other areas.

Thanks guys

> So, at the next stop light, I got out of the car and took my backpack. And started walking. There was a hostel in the neighborhood, so I asked for directions and walked there by myself.
A few hours later, I went back to where we had last seen each other, and he was still there. That was the last time he yelled at me during that trip.

So the strategy does work, you know that already :-)

There are less extreme forms of the strategy. 10 minutes 'time out' is probably enough for him to regain his composure. But the very act of doing it *every time* means that the behaviours will extinguish...

Works for toddlers...
Works for pets...
Works for husbands too lol ;-)

But yeah, sounds like you can do it :-)

(It might or might not generalise back to the rest of his life but not doing it around you would make your life a whole bunch easier)

Good luck.

Been reading this thread LeeAnn, I think you are doing a great job in asking questions and working on things.

I have an older sister who thinks her husband is ADHD-- she's an elementary school teacher and sees her husband's behavior in some of her students. Years ago she would say that her husband is just immature and he'll grow out of it. (they never worked on things like you two are)..... well... he's still the same person 30 years later!

She's went through some horrible messes that he's made, she even was hospitalized with clinical depression at one point. She just kept hoping that he'd "mature"---wouldn't talk about the problems let alone work on them.

Good for you working on things!
Don't forget to give yourself some "kudos"!

LMo-

mandy

[LMo]

Thanks again Alexandra, and ((( Mandy ))). I don't know if this is on the right path or not, but I figure I have to do whatever I personally can do. I'm grateful that he is active in therapy and semi-active in his early stages of ADD coaching. He is terrific in so many ways that I truly believe that he is willing to make an effort, but I'm not banking on it or anything like that. ;p

[(JD)]

I think not. Yelling is a response that is mostly unnecessary today, except for football games and the like, imo. It's a way to drown out what the other person is saying, show great anger, and basically act out.

I hope he is doing better with therapy. It's so much better to be able to relay those same feelings of anger or dissatisfaction in a calm tone like a real adult.

TC ((hugs)))

[LMo]

I agree with you _Sky -- it's just strange that he really doesn't seem as though he has much control over it.

One of my best friends told me yesterday that she has yelled a couple of times in her life, and it was scary how the floodgates really opened once she started yelling. She knew that she wasn't making any sense and that she wasn't being fair, but it's almost like it was too late once she let loose. She said she's very careful not to let herself go down that path now. She's a good 15 years older than my H is, so that was somewhat heartening.

[nothemama8]

he may need anger managment, plus the constent replay sounds like Papa, could he have OCD, Papa is OCD and like a pit bull never lets go of a topic til it's old
I was going to suggest walking away until he calms down ya did good girl
Love

[LMo]

Thanks Ange - I don't think he has OCD, but the constant replay is, well, as you said, old.

I love it when you give me advice, btw. Your word means a lot to me -- I consider you to be a very wise woman, and I appreciate your guidance

[Rhapsody]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
LMo said:
I guess my real question is about whether this is something I need to learn to live with, or whether there is any possibility that he could ever overcome this reaction to his frustration?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

From my experience with my own husband who use to react like your husband does to stress - I would say that yes it is possible for him to change, or at least calm his out burst a little.... but honestly to be safe I would say that it would be best for you nerves to learn to accept his ways (as to cont' to love him), but to keep on trying to gently and lovingly help him to see other ways that he might be able to better express his inner upsets through.

NOW!! - with that said I cannot say that this will be easy for either one of you guys, but that it is possible and can be accomplished to a certain degree.... I say to a certain degree, for some learned behaviors (from childhood) never fully leave us.


LoVe,
Rhapsody -

[nothemama8]

don't know about wise, but am sure about old (lol) 30 years with Papa, yes Leeann hubbys can change bad habits it just takes time, remember they got trained from there mamas, and now it's our turn to retrain them
Ange

[Boopers]

Hi Leeann, So sorry your hubby is a yeller!! My father was also a yeller my whole childhood. He mostly yelled at my Mother and she in turn, would go days, and I mean days, without saying one word to him. She was always good at giving him the silent treatment. So, Dad would always tell me to tell Mom this or that and in turn, Mom would tell me to tell Dad this or that. I always hated it and to this day, I hate yelling and I hate the silent treatment.
When I married, I didn't marry a yeller but I found out I married the silent treatment type. I kept telling my husband over the years, how much I hated it. He knew my Mom and Dad before they passed, so he knew each ones way of dealing with things and knew how I hated both ways. Eventually, a few years before my father passed, he did learn to control his temper and became a very docile man. In turn, my Mother quit her silent treatment and they had good years of marriage after that. My husband also finally stopped the silent treatment with me. If he got upset with me over anything, I would get the silent treatment and I never thought that was fair because most of the time, I never knew why he was giving me the silent treatment..
Tell your husband that it really isn't good for his health to yell like that. My father, although it was hereiditary, he also suffered for years with heart disease, heart attacks and surgeries because of it. The getting sooo excited and yelling so much was putting a big strain on his heart and blood pressure.
I wish you the best and I hope your husband will learn that yelling isn't the answer.
Good luck to you.

Linda

[LMo]

Wow Linda - thanks for the success story! And you're absolutely right about the health factor -- he is extremely health-conscious and I'd think he'd pay more attention if I framed it that way. Interesting!

Thanks again -- good post!

[ster]

If I may I was a yellar or screamer for many years There are times i could do that but I leave the place of frustation so it has not been a problem after I turned 45 Some that are grown up in a everinment of scream they scream. as wiith you and hubby. Something he has to do. Some drive everyone away from themselfs never really knowing why.