A Little Understanding--- of PTSD

This is to try to help out-- this helped me out a little- I do have a question or two here...

I hope this does not need a trigger button, but I do encourage others to look at the flow chart on this website...
http://www.psychologytools.org/asset...ormulation.pdf







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This is something that I looked at a few months ago--

something just clicked just now for me.... I don't think fully but at the same time a little click of "oh".. I think I get it a little..

Avoidance will not change the memory or thought patterns.... Avoidance just lets them continue...
Though I don't fully understand how -- Not Avoiding can change the memory-- is it that it changes out look on the memory? Or is simply "facing the memory" helpful? (This thought scares me to be honest-- I can not go back and face it- They pop up on their (memories) own it seems like.... I guess this is where a therapist guides and keeps one on the right track?
((**Edit: Though I do get the concept of "don't think of a white polar bear; try your best not to think of a white polar bear... close your eyes... what do you see-- For me when i did this- I did see a white polar bear-- meaning trying to avoid thinking of a white polar bear just made me think of it more.... so I get that concept of avoiding memories and the effect of it)) but I guess I don't get it fully due to I have memories that just pop up**))

I know this will be an example of the simplistic ways: (Please do correct me if I am wrong here)
My Example- It is not a trauma per say (but it does not help my thinking patterns on a lot of levels-- it continues with my toxic thinking)
My Job... (I will not rant about it I will lay it out simply as an example)

• I will admit sometimes, I avoid with moving on due to scared that everywhere else is the same....
• Avoidance of moving on to another job, is not helping me with thinking differently of "you try and try and try and still get knocked down" or "people just exploit you if you are nice and hard worker" or "if you work hard you will just be used and not appreciated" -- or "only under handing people move up in the word".
• Avoidance comes coupled with I "can't" do better, or I "must deserve this crap hole"....

I get a lot of triggers at my work with my supervisor and some of my co-workers.... triggers that range from my childhood sadly ... perhaps it is all just projection (actually some of it is but not all of it-- others that claim to be "normal" have trouble at my work with these people that i do- I just take it way too deeply i guess)....

Any other thoughts on this-- I hope this work sheet helps some out as well...


(Sort of an encouragement (a little one) to say hey--- maybe therapy try again?? or at least something needs to be done!).... Sorry I guess this is sparking in me due to what my S/O said the other day (which I know with the recent things I need to talk to him about) but he mentioned-- Well maybe we can try therapy if you still feel this way when you are 30 I don't want to wait till I am thirty... I am wasting too much time right now at 25 almost 26 i think to myself today.... other times -- I think he has seen progress in me, he believes some time,... Time does help with healing... I wonder if he would think EMDR would be a good treatment?

Any ways-_ I hope this helps some, and if some have some things to clarify I am ears opened

(((beauflow))),

Yes, you are right in the first part of the "polar bear" and how "avoiding" it won't stop the fear of it or the challenge of the trama that we never "processed".

The practice of "avoidance" is what we all utilize as human beings to survive. Not only human beings, but also animals as well.

I will give you an example of what I have to do when training a horse. When I train a horse I do notice that there is a variation of "avoidance" in each animal. What that means is that when they encounter "something new" they will often stop and wonder about "danger" and if there is any history of "real danger or some kind of injury" it makes my training process even harder. The only way that I can finally get a horse past that "avoidance" is to show them/educate them that whatever it is can be worked through and is no longer something to "avoid" out of fear or sense of danger or even lack of how to do whatever it is. I have to encourage the animal "through" whatever it is they "want" to avoid. And I have to do that gradually, methodically in the same way, and over and over again until they finally are "desensitized" to whatever they need to avoid.

The same goes true for human beings. Only we are so much more intelligent and in one way that can help but in another way we have more ways of perceiving dangers and developing ways to "avoid" that it isn't as easy to get past the "avoidant" thought processes that are connected to some kind of "trama" or "danger" or "challenge".

When looking at this chart beauflow, you have to take into consideration the subconscious mind of a human being. Our subconscious minds are much more complex than other mammels. We spend a lot more time building that subconscious mind because of all the species, we take the longest to reach adulthood and "independant" thinking for "self" and "individual" survival. The way we learn and imprint a sense of self value and our capacity to thrive is more dependant on our parents and immediate family than other mammels as well.

The way we each develope "avoidance" is more complex and developes over a long period of time and is very influenced by our parents and family environment and how that also affects our interactions in school, on the bus, in class and with our peirs. Our ability to control our emotional responses to our peirs depends on our emotional well being in our home environment. If we are not loved and respected at home then we may feel that our other interactions will result in the same messages of our "unworthiness" to have a sense of "value". These messages are all filed into our "subconscious".

So, in order to find a way to stop "avoiding" or maintaining "fears or sense of personal duress and bad thinking patterns" we have to examine our subconscious and what kind of personal history is there. This is a challenge because we are talking about the "subconscious" mind rather than the "conscious mind". So what that means is that we are not always consciously aware of how we developed reactions to various challenges that is stored in how we just "react" to our world and feel about ourselves.

Unless we can take time out to truely "examine" that and discuss our history as well as how we "perceive" things and "self protect" and "even avoid" we can get trapped in a cycle that prevents us from moving forward and genuinely feeling that we "can" move forward and past whatever we "avoid".

The purpose of therapy, is an effort and willingness to find ways to get into a more conscious understanding of our own "subconscious" mind. This is so that we can finally learn how to "change" the way we need to avoid and fear simply because we never really learned how. And when we do begin to examine what is there, we can feel very vulnerable or even ashamed if we did not have the right way of handling a past trama, conflict or way of "thriving".

What you were discussing about the challenges you have with your job and how you view this job as well as how others show their value of you is all connected to your "subconscious" mind. What could be there is that you may have developed a feeling of "not being important, valued and loved" so your subconscious had to develope around that. How it developed around that is to practice "avoidance" so that you could learn to thrive "inspite" of that lack of "nourishment'.

When we are asked to "examine" some kind of lack that we developed a system of avoidance around so that we could still thrive, we feel "very vulnerable". We feel "vulnerable" because in the process of addressing "avoidance" we open a door to the emotions that were prevented from taking place in order to "thrive". And "if" we do that then we do not know how to stop the unrest that takes place in our brains as the chemicals that present with emotions flood the brain as well as the fear that brings about the cortizol that can cause us to have the urge to "escape" or "flight" or even "fight".

When we talk about "triggers" what that means is that something reminds us of a situation that we often avoided or felt a danger somehow where we did not have the "knowledge" to have an effective way to "defend" ourselves. And if we did encounter something troubling, we may have just given into something simply because we had no other way or knowledge of how else to "self protect".

When we seek "therapy" we need to have access to an individual that we can "trust" and feel "safe" with so that we can slowly gain an understanding of how we struggled in our past, and in the now and identify the origins and then slowly begin to learn how to change the subconscious mind and fears that we experienced in the past that affects how we relate, interpret ourselves, and thrive in the present.

What you do now beauflow, is you are trying to find your way to "believing" that you can actually grow past the negetive messages that you feel and experience at work.
The problem is, that you do not have that ability in your subconsious mind. So, what you end up doing is either trying to avoid or get caught up in just experiencing the challenge of not knowing how to maneuver past that challenge. Should I just stay here because at least I am thriving on some level, or do I move on and only end up struggling elsewhere? The only way you make it past that is to actually move on and continue to build "skills" and allow yourself to "grow". And the only way you can begin to be ok with that is if you have done that in your past and know it can be done.

If your subconscious mind contains negetive messages from your childhood where your parents did not show you how to progress and meet challenges or, gave you the sense the you can achieve that and they will help and encourage you to do so, there is no foundation there to work with in the "now".

Sometimes people "avoid" and push on anyway and get educated and progress without the "emotional" rewards that were supposed to be established in their childhoods. So they never developed a real sense of "emotional balance" while growing. This can present challenges down the road as well if some kind of trama takes place because these people never learned "emotional balance" so their recovery is a challenge as well because their subconscious mind doesn't have that either.

When we enter into therapy and can establish a sense of "safety" with a therapist, we "can" slowly learn to fill in the areas of our subconsious that is challenged in some way. It takes time and patience because our conscious mind is not always aware of what is missing. However, if we commit to "self love" and "patience" we "can" finally come to an understanding of ourselves and begin to allow "growth" to take place. When that happens, and it is a slow process, we slowly begin to "feel better" because we can gain more balance and knowledge and how to manage emotions as well.

Does that help beauflow? That is what I am working on myself and it takes time and patience to do that. It also took me time to understand how it all fits together too and make a commitment to allow myself to grow instead of fall into the cycle that causes me to experience what is called PTSD. However I personally feel that other disorders are related and can be eased through therapy as well. It is very important to have a therapist we can genuinely "trust" so that we can openly explore our unique ways of how we manages ourselves that has been built up over our lives from our life experiences and influences.

Open Eyes

((Open Eyes))

Yeah that does help a little--

Some of these things I get, and some what realize, but fully realizing I don't think is part of the problem, and fully getting that good exercise going, from something else to which was lacked off to help train my brain I think I am missing too..

I.e. One thing you mention up there that really hits with me:
My Parents were not a foundation of anything.. I could write all of it but I don't want to right now... (i feel drained and that I have whined enough here the last few weeks)...
In an amazing way though--
No Foundation, I graduated High School with Honors (not sure if that says anything though) but the only encouragement to go to college was "So I could get a good paying job to pay for my Mom to not work and a house for her"... she seriously would tell me that all the time when I got into my senior year of high school... by that time I had so much anger that I know eroded my heart for her, and since I was not allowed to "rebel at normal ages as kids do in earlier teenager years" my senior year I really wasted and that is most definitely when my addiction to drugs showed up...
I remembered asking a counselor at my school about college, he told me that I would ahve to have my parents support...
My parents gave none that was real-- My mother just told me that I had to continue shcool so she could continue to get her child support check until I was 25 (lovely huh?) there is soo much more to this than this...., and by no means THEY were NOT going to pay for it- they had made that much clear-- but I was suppose to go none the less.
I did go to a trade school, it was funny I was like 18 or 19, and the lady said one of my parents HAD to sign for the loan for me-- I did not want any thing of my mother attached to me -- but I lucked out there due to the loan people rejected my mom's signature - I still got my loan with just me-- i guess they made an exception? I have paid that off that has been one thing that I found as an achievement of course I am not in Veterinarian Assistant but that is ok-- I had trouble with the environment and the putting down of animals and some other things (aborting kittens was another thing that was part of that job when I did my internship )

I think a lot of this foundation stuff is what has effected me-- and a part of me realizes it but-- yet-- a bigger part is just lost on where to start to build that foundation for myself... (a lot of subconscious stuff I am sure of too)

I have actually read your post here Open Eyes a few times today... been pondering on it...

Maybe if writing out some things on a good day of "I can do something better, something meaningful, something that makes me happier" over and over-- perhaps that is something to help subconscious mind

The only things (just a few) that I can recall with "Making a move and it turning out for the better" (or at least what I can recall right now-- maybe there are more?)
Was when I left my brother--- Yeah technically I was homeless but yet was not (My name was still on the lease of our old place but I left)- but a old bud took me in- I still had my job- eventually got a place with my S/O (at the time just room mates)
Taking that leap with getting involved with my S/O which I am trying hard to keep saying-- this will be good -- I know some days I get too worried... I remember a few years before my S/O i used to think I was unable to be loved... One day I started to say to myself in the mirror-- "you are a good person, some probably do find you a little cute." .. actually I think that helped a little...
So I have a few things i suppose that are good with - making a dramatic change in my eyes and have turned for the better ....


I may have to get back to this on the other things mentioned

Having an odd day-- trouble concentrating today but thank you Open Eyes...

It sounds like your mother kept sending you messages of "you need to find a way to take care of "her". And she didn't really take care of herself to give you an example.

I raised my daughter by giving her permission to "her right to be happy" and "thrive for her". So I do have to say she has a strong subconscious that keeps her in a forward momentum.

One day she said to me, "Mom, we are polar opposites". And I thought about it and replied to her, "we were raised very differently and you had lots of safety growing up".
I gave her the message that I wanted her to be "better than me" but I made sure she understood that it meant that she found good ways to be "genuinely happy" and it didn't matter to me if that meant she was knee deep in pig crap. I told her what I would look for is a genuine smile and I would be happy.

When we are raised to "give up our happiness for others" we struggle with allowing ourselves to "be happy". When we struggle with having the "right to be happy" and we are exposed to others who "disrespect us" or "invade our boundaries" we struggle with having the "subconscious permission" to give ourselves the right to be happy.

If I review my own "subconscious" I see a young child that tried to be happy but was constantly challenged and often the "happy" was intruded upon. My subconscious mind struggled all my life with feeling that if I gained some kind of "happiness" it would be "taken from me somehow" and that I had to find ways to "hide when I was happy". Basically, I was trained to be a victim without even realizing it.

Open Eyes

(((Open Eyes))) you are an inspiration... you really are..
I probably still wont have kids but this story of yours with your daughter
That is a fear of mine of being just like my mom in the worse ways...

You hit my mom on the head-- and yes I saw it as a worse in her... god, she coned my dad out of so much money -- she had alomonie childsupport then had him pay half the rent with "them living together again" off and on threw my teenager years.....
this is one thing that when my ex-t told me to write "what she taught me"-- She Taught Me That I DID NOT want to be like her, that I wanted MY OWN Money, MY OWN Way!

sigh and my dad....
My dad used to tell me at times-- "I would respect you more if you were a artist out on the 16th street mall barely making it, rather than a corporate COE being miserable" ... I have taken this in many ways but try best to couple it with what else he used to say--- He used to tell me "be happy"--He used to tell me a story about a lawyer that his grandparents knew (grandparnts for him were his parents) but that he committed suicide after years of being a defense lawyer and was miserable, and that he did not want that for his kids... or himself....
- but these messages were NOT until my later teenager years.... and were not as often as my mother... My mom used to discourage my dad with telling us stories and things... I wish he would not had listened, but then again my Mom blamed my Dad for the stuff that my brother did when he was a teenager and went to jail... Not to say that some of the "disaplining" ways from our dad did not help with a lot of anger issues with us kids.. and his drinking and his own anger..
My dad also had a lot of "do it on your own" stuff too-- which is good to a point (if you know what I mean)....

I know--- my dad told me once in one of last talks that he wished he could had done better for us kids--- a day late and a dollar short to tell a 24 year old that-- THOUGH It IS NOT COMPLETELY A day late and a dollar short-- those little things have MEANT SO MUCH to me... but yet they can Tear me apart too with him.

eeehh sorry I am on a ranty day--

talking about being programed to be a victim I just posted in other mental discussion about speaking up for myself-- even on the littlest thing that means nothing just of what I want.....

blah---

Foundation...

I wonder if there are sleeping tapes that I could listen to that have "positive messages" that could seep into my subconcious-- hear some times those tapes help people... though -- i ask myself.. could i fall asleep to that

Sorry for being all over the place and BIG letters... I am not yelling at any one BUT MYSELF right now...

((beauflow))),

you are doing fine, and actually the fact that you are "reviewing" the messages you got from your parents is also "reviewing" the messages that went into your subconscious mind. It is also important to consider that "most" people will utter, "wish I knew then what I know now, could have lived a better life". However we forget that we are really designed to "procreate" and when the "focus" is on that simply by our hormones, we forget that because of that constant distraction, we did not recognize other "worldly" things.

When we think about our parents we do have to consider the messages they received growing up as well. Parents don't "intentionally" want to disregard the correct messages to send to their children. Your mother came from a generation that was nurtured by a generation who felt that "women" were to be taken care of and didn't have to "work" and produce for themselves. Your mother really subconsciously "believes" that she has the "right to expect others to support her".

For example, when I was young and married, I worked and bought the "groceries" and I also saved to buy funiture and fix up the inside of my home and "make a nice home". My mother always felt that it was "terrible" that "I" bought the food. My mother felt that it was a "man's job" to provide money for the "food". And in her life and how she was raised, that is what was expected of the man of the household. Every week my father was expected to give my mother grocery money were she went out and bought food for the family. And for the food money to be "her responsibilty" was simply "out of the question".

Well, in my parent's generation, there were things that were considered the woman's job and things that were considered the "man's" responsibilty. Now things are different in couples, both contribute. However, that doesn't "change" my constant "subconscious" messages. So if I "do" buy groceries, I feel that I am somehow, wrong or that my husband is not doing his "designated job". Even though I know that it is ok for me to buy the groceries, I still subconsicously will feel something is "wrong". I am just not "consciously" aware of that phenomenom though. Emotionally, without my truely realizing it, I may feel "guilty" about buying groceries. So, the activity of "buying groceries" will leave me feeling at odds with myself and it may become an "unpleasent" experience without my truely realizing why.

Now, here is something else I noticed. If my husband cleans up the kitchen and loads or unloads the dishwasher, if he does a load of laundry as well? Well, in his subconscious mind that is supposed to be "my job" somehow so he will make a "big deal" out of how "he" did those things and expect "me" to show "tons of appreciation" or even feel that I somehow failed to do "my job" in our domestic life. Emotionally, my husband will generate emotions of "he is doing me a big favor" and is "resentful or "angry" about it.

Now beauflow, in your S/O's subconscious mind, he is used to his father disrespecting the boundaries of others. On some level subconsciously, he has learned to "accept" that behavior. So when you discuss how you are upset by that, while he may consciously recognize your feelings, subconsciously it is acceptable behavior on some level. So he has the abilty to "get over that behavior emotionally" while you continue to struggle. Your subconscious has some of your mothers "expecting to be taken care of and seen as important" as well as your father's "you should be happy and productive". So your subconscious sends you different messages than your SO's does hense different "emotional" responses. And ofcourse if we add in the fact that women are "more emotional" then men, it creates even "more" friction and sense of "violation" and disrespect.

Something to think about.
Open Eyes

((Open Eyes)) that is true it is all something to think about....

At first when i read this and then thinking-- I started to think about my S/O's parents, his mom is the bread winner right now, but I do remember him saying that at one time his dad had been working is retired right now....

then I stopped--

Something clicked.... turn it on me- to understand him helps but to understand me is more helpful..
I don't know if you know (I have ranted about this in places), but I know Cleaning the apt. is one big thing that can really goat me with my S/O .... meaning I want help with it- that just because I am a woman does not make it "my job" -- Even though at the same time, I know some where inside when I have the "thought" of his parents stopping by as they have "suggested" or anyone for that matter; that it all reflects on me.. that I am a sloppy "house wife"-- but those thoughts get countered with - I work the same amount of hours that my S/O works...

I do also realize that my S/O and I have both been raised where "combining these two responsibilities" has been combined or switched around-- Meaning 80's and 90's and especially now days-- some cases "the tables have turned"
And Example- like with his parents right now- his mom is the bread winner right now; when they first got married his dad was the bread winner and I am sure a very strong sense that "was his job"..... (I don't know if my full thought there is getting through)

It is funny appraisal for cleaning-- Some Times that is ME doing that rather than my S/O... This is something that I have realized for a while and slowly have slacked off with it-- Also with "MY Approval of Things" is really what matters.. (that I am still working on but it is slow)-- I think for me it is a combination of my mom used to be like "clean this"; but it was never "good enough for her" and after I would clean she would re-clean what I had just cleaned... I know this may sound like OCD, but I think it was a controlling thing with her over all (maybe a touch of OCD but then again I think my mom has PTSD coupled with a few other issues like NP, and she is dx as Bipolar1).

I wonder if some cases the subconscious messages get twisted and all with things.... sort of rebel against it if at some point we realize it?

I was also thinking about last week-- how it was sooo difficult for me to bring up the problems.... To the point of unable to speak (I think this has some to do with PTSD and how I was raised: "ignore the issues", the times that I have spoke or another person spoke, and violence has broke out especially when i was a kid, and in my teenager years then early 20's and so on)... very strong imprint on me of something bad will happen if i speak up...
But also-- Actions of everyone ignoring my Sister's and mine CSA when we were little--then when it was brought up by my sister when she was older and i was in my teenager years, it was brushed off "some siblings just do that" (from my dad that was)...- I am sure that gave a big message to keep quiet with issues.. No one cares.. but yet twisted with what you have mentioned with from my mom of -- "you should care about me"
I am sure there is so much more there..

what a mess... (i chuckle as I say that, as if I did not already know that lol)...

It is all things to think of... I have tended to do this more in my work place of-- why does my supervisor piss me off so much/why do I have so much anger..., oh she reminds me of my mom or something, Is this projection or is this really valid... the sad part though with my supervisor-- a lot of things are valid-- I just have to sort out the degree of anger that is with the "now issue" vs the "past issue" ... if that makes any sense


I know I asked my S/O this morning when we were hanging out (he got up and we talked yay ) but what is his foundation... he says he does not remember his childhood that much... he is not sure what I am meaning by foundation... I used the example of a house .. if a house has a bad foundation it will fall down, if it has a strong foundation it will stand strong against things... he sort of got that-- he said he did not know what his foundation was....
I do find this important though.... I sort wish he did too... but it is ok if he is not ready for foundation talk....

I may say that in away, I in some form have built my own foundation as time has went on.... That even if subconsciously messages that were imprinted in me-- even if I may struggle with it all-- that in some ways I am breaking out of them as best as I can..

Perhaps my S/O is probably the same in some way.. I.e.... I will wonder if his wanting me to communicate more- to not hold it all in, is something he realizes that he was imprinted with and wishes could do more himself...
The other week, he grabbed a note pad and pen when he saw me struggling with talking... i write to him a lot, it is a form of communication.. Meaning he did not want to ignore what I had to say, he wanted to know.

sigh.. a lot to think about... some new realization and re-realizations here...

((Thanks for talking with me Open Eyes))

(((beauflow)),
You are just working on figuring this all out, me too. I feel like there were things I knew that I fought too. But that is also part of the subconscious resenting things that constrain us or invalidate us.

You are doing "better" beau, it takes time to pull this all apart and walk through it understand what triggers the PTSD and how to work past it. I am working on that myself. But I don't blame myself anymore, I have made a decision to just grow from whatever I learn.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes