i decided to email T again after all. i really hadn't planned on it either. i told her what i was upset about and that i felt she needed to acknowledge her part in this and/or apologize. i had previously told her i felt manipulated and given a guilt-trip by her when i dropped the artist way class due to my health issues, but she had merely said she was sorry she had given me that impression (of guilt tripping me). boy, that didn't go over well with me! i hate confronting people as i never know how they will respond. my family tends to steamroll me with yelling and arguing til i give up and others make it worse by denying it which is what T did. i've had people do that to me before and it is sooooo crazymaking. i do feel like i've done everything i can at this point to work this out. i really hope T doesn't try to rationalize this as it was so obvious what she did. all i want is a simple acknowledgement or apology and i feel like i'm pulling teeth here.

[Fartraveler]

T's do not apologize. I do not know why, but it irritates me too. Because they are all about [me] taking responsibility for my stuff, but somehow anything they do in therapy is somehow also [my] stuff.

The biggest concession I have ever gotten from my T with regard to things I know she's done wrong is:

from her: "I know that I sometimes make mistakes but I also know I am not a bad person." (I suppose she was modeling that for me, but it felt more like her being therapeutic than like an actual apology.)

and also she has at times managed to admit that if we are both part of this relationship, any problems can't be ALL my fault.

But you're right, it's like pulling teeth.

-Far

Bleech to all T's. Bleech, I say!

[zooropa]

I have to respectfully disagree with fartraveler on this. My T has apologized to me, several times in fact.

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

T's do not apologize. I do not know why, but it irritates me too. Because they are all about [me] taking responsibility for my stuff, but somehow anything they do in therapy is somehow also [my] stuff.

i'm sorry Far that your T has never apologized. that is crummy. i really don't know if my T will or not. so far, she has handled this all poorly and my fear is that she is going to try to turn it around and say it's my stuff when i know it isn't. it kind of freaks me out to think how a T could abuse their power and do that when they screw up.

The biggest concession I have ever gotten from my T with regard to things I know she's done wrong is:

from her: "I know that I sometimes make mistakes but I also know I am not a bad person." (I suppose she was modeling that for me, but it felt more like her being therapeutic than like an actual apology.)

hmmm...

and also she has at times managed to admit that if we are both part of this relationship, any problems can't be ALL my fault.

that is pretty good.

But you're right, it's like pulling teeth.

i so appreciate when people can apologize simply. it's funny, i find guys to be better at that. i have a friend who i used to help out with spiritual stuff, it's sort of feels like a therapeutic relationship at times, and he said some things that i was very hurt by. when i told him how hurt i was he made no excuses nor gave explanations but simply said he was sorry and he hadn't meant to hurt me. i try to do it like that as well. but i guess everybody has baggage and for some denial of responsibility is part of it.

Bleech to all T's. Bleech, I say!

thanks for understanding.

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by bloom3

i hate confronting people as i never know how they will respond.

It must have been very difficult to say what you needed to in those e-mails and then not get the response you hoped for. But I wonder if it feels safer to do it in e-mail than in person or via telephone (because I know you have difficulty getting to in-person sessions right now). The best way to sort out disagreements, confusion, and conflict is directly, via conversations. So much can get lost or distorted, on both ends, when contact is only in writing. It seems like every e-mail you two send gets things more tangled. You're clearly upset about this and I hope you are able to get this sorted soon.

[Fartraveler]

Now I feel bad for criticizing her -- really she is the most generous soul.

Right now I'm a little irritated at her because she went away the day before Xmas and she isn't coming back until next Monday. So unfair, I know. (But I just don't like it when she goes away.)

So really I'm just venting. If I talk about this tomorrow I might have a different opinion.

What I really get angry with her about is that if I have an appointment with her and then go home and cut, I think she is at least in part responsible for that. But she says she isn't. I think she just doesn't like to admit that she is. I think that deep down inside she knows that at some level, she is responsible.

Really I am very attached to her, though.

my fear is that she is going to try to turn it around and say it's my stuff when i know it isn't. it kind of freaks me out to think how a T could abuse their power and do that when they screw up.

Bloom, I think it's partly that they can rationalize that they are not actually screwing up -- they are just not being honest with themselves. And the other part is that maybe they are afraid that it is their stuff, and that they are doing damage -- that they are doing some kind of iatrogenic damage, and they don't want to admit it.

(OK, I am still irritated at my T. But this is not all irritation. There is also something valid in what I'm saying.)


-Far

Originally Posted by skeksi

It must have been very difficult to say what you needed to in those e-mails and then not get the response you hoped for. But I wonder if it feels safer to do it in e-mail than in person or via telephone (because I know you have difficulty getting to in-person sessions right now). The best way to sort out disagreements, confusion, and conflict is directly, via conversations. So much can get lost or distorted, on both ends, when contact is only in writing. It seems like every e-mail you two send gets things more tangled. You're clearly upset about this and I hope you are able to get this sorted soon.

i am a big wuss when it comes to confronting people so that is why i did it in email. i got the idea from this forum. i do find it a whole lot easier as i hate to ever give people negative feedback. but youre right that it isn't ideal. i think some of our email communication has been fine; it's been more what she's said that was the problem. i can't imagine telling her in person that i need her to apologize or take responsibility. i'd sink into the floor.

i am really realizing how much i don't say. i've always known that was a problem but i had no idea until PC how much people share concerning their feelings in relationships. i am a bit emotionally clueless. no wonder therapy has never been that helpful for me.

Originally Posted by bloom3

i am really realizing how much i don't say. i've always known that was a problem but i had no idea until PC how much people share concerning their feelings in relationships. i am a bit emotionally clueless. no wonder therapy has never been that helpful for me.

Oh, ((((((((((((((bloom))))))))))))))))))))...we are ALL learning, I think

What if you took this realization..."There is a lot I don't say, and it makes therapy not that helpful for me"...and did things differently this time? Sometimes T will ask me to "try something different". Could you try something different, and schedule a session with T so you could talk about all of this??

You e-mailed her again, which makes me think that maybe you are not totally ready to give up, and to let this therapy relationship end. If you are leaving anyhow, a phone call can't make things worse. And what if it makes things better?

Originally Posted by treehouse

What if you took this realization..."There is a lot I don't say, and it makes therapy not that helpful for me"...and did things differently this time?

tree, i do think i have done things differently this time. i've really shared with T where i'm at with things where in the past i'd never do that. i know email isn't the best but right now i think it's okay for me.

well, T responded. i've only read it briefly as i am not really awake enough to deal with it yet. she said at one point something about "probably" being wrong. lol, considering some other people's Ts don't take any responsibility that is not too bad. but then she said something about my trying to make her responsible for my feelings. the thing is i don't think i am at all. i think she tried to guilt trip me but i don't feel guilty for dropping the class because i'm too sick to come. i'm upset she would try to give me a guilt trip. i didn't accept it! so, i don't know...i really need to reread the email carefully and then figure out whether or not i think this therapy is worth continuing. i feel like my trust in her has been broken and i'm not sure i can get it back.

okay, the really weird thing is she used an odd expression that is exactly what i said to someone in the relationships forum here on PC when responding to their thread. she knows i post here and i think she may be reading my posts. ewwwww.

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

Now I feel bad for criticizing her -- really she is the most generous soul.

i think we can be upset with our Ts and also still care for them a lot and think they are wonderful people.

So really I'm just venting. If I talk about this tomorrow I might have a different opinion.

lol

What I really get angry with her about is that if I have an appointment with her and then go home and cut, I think she is at least in part responsible for that. But she says she isn't. I think she just doesn't like to admit that she is. I think that deep down inside she knows that at some level, she is responsible.

i see it a bit differently. i think other people are responsible for their stuff (how they act & what they say) but i do think we are also responsible for how we respond. take gentle care of yourself Far.

Originally Posted by bloom3

i see it a bit differently. i think other people are responsible for their stuff (how they act & what they say) but i do think we are also responsible for how we respond. take gentle care of yourself Far.

I think that is what your t is saying to you. Your taking what she said as a guilt trip is your response to something that she didn't intend to be taken that way. She didn't intend that to be the effect of what she was saying. She regrets that you took it that way, but that is your response that you have to deal with.

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I think that is what your t is saying to you. Your taking what she said as a guilt trip is your response to something that she didn't intend to be taken that way. She didn't intend that to be the effect of what she was saying. She regrets that you took it that way, but that is your response that you have to deal with.

farmergirl, i don't think my T intended to manipulate me but i believe she did none the less. just because someone doesn't intend harm doesn't mean it hasn't happened. an extreme example would be how a drunk driver doesn't intend to kill people on the road but if they have run someone over and the person dies they have obviously harmed that individual nevertheless. i don't believe everything is a matter of perspective--some things are true. am i being a bit picky about all this? sure, but when people don't take responsibility for their stuff and try to pass it off as mine or rationalize it away i get quite annoyed. it is a huge pet peeve of mine. granted, i probably need to be a lot more gracious about it but i'm in the middle of working this thru right now.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

T's do not apologize. I do not know why, but it irritates me too. Because they are all about [me] taking responsibility for my stuff, but somehow anything they do in therapy is somehow also [my] stuff.

The biggest concession I have ever gotten from my T with regard to things I know she's done wrong is:

from her: "I know that I sometimes make mistakes but I also know I am not a bad person." (I suppose she was modeling that for me, but it felt more like her being therapeutic than like an actual apology.)

and also she has at times managed to admit that if we are both part of this relationship, any problems can't be ALL my fault.

But you're right, it's like pulling teeth.

-Far

Bleech to all T's. Bleech, I say!

just my $0.02
I guess T and I have had all variations on this theme (including sincere apology on her part, and several on my part!!) but thanks for bringing this up, I never put it together before.

well, i think i'm going to stick it out and stay in therapy. i guess T's response was good enough even if not quite what i'd hoped for. a big thanks to all of you who offered understanding and advice. i really appreciate it. now back to our regularly scheduled drama-free therapy.

edit to add: i think i might start going to ACA again as well. i'm glad i had that as an alternative if i bailed on T but i may use it instead as backup support. there is something about a group that i find really helpful.

Originally Posted by bloom3

now back to our regularly scheduled drama-free therapy.

Does this even EXIST?!?!

Glad you sorted things out, bloom.

Originally Posted by treehouse

Does this even EXIST?!?!

lol! well, mine has been so far but if i'm wanting to go deeper i do wonder if i am inviting more drama. it's funny because i hate drama in my life and yet i love watching dramatic shows and hearing others' drama. i am a vicarious drama queen!

Glad you sorted things out, bloom.

thanks