I got put on a time out

I'm sorry for starting another new thread when I haven't had much time for responding to other threads around here this week.

I just really need some support and reassurance I guess. I had an incident of self harm this afternoon, and then I called my T and talked to her about it. One of the DBT "rules" is that after SI you can't talk to your T for 24 hrs, so she just talked to me long enough to make sure that I was ok and didn't need medical attention, and then she told me to call her at the same time tomorrow and reminded me of that rule.

So, intellectually I understand it, but emotionally I feel abandoned. I keep thinking that this is just her way of getting out of having to be my T any more, that when I do call her she's going to say something worse, that she can't work w/me anymore because of my SI or something else.

I can live with not calling her until tomorrow afternoon, I probably wouldn't have called her in that time anyway. It's all the thoughts and fears about how this is just the beginning of something big and bad that are freaking me OUT.

Oh, zoo You remind me so much of me!

My mind used to spin and spin and spin worrying about T getting rid of me. I was sure he was going to refer me and that was going to be that. He truly spent the first 18 months of my therapy (at least) having to reassure me constantly "I'm not going to refer you"....he had to tell me so much, that he started telling me without me even asking. At the end of voice mails, he would just throw it in "blah blah blah..and I'm not going to refer you"

It sounds like T is following a guideline that is in place for this exact situation. That is what she has to do. I love that she invited you to call tomorrow at the same time...to me, it sounds like she is saying "I have to follow this rule, but I am still here for you. Call me as soon as the 24 hours are up".

I wonder if when you talk to her, you could tell her about what you are afraid of? I don't know if T saying "I'm not going to refer you" helped me that much...I think I had to experience being with him through a lot of stuff and not being referred to REALLY believe it...but it did feel better that the scary thought was out in the open where we could talk about it. It definitely took away some of it's power. Things can get SO BIG AND SCARY when I keep them in my head.

I'm glad you posted, zoo

thank you, Tree. That makes me feel better, to know I'm not the only one with these kinds of worries! I have talked a little bit about it in the past with T, but I'm sure she has no idea how much I worry about her "getting rid of me".

So, I know this little time-out isn't abandonment or rejection, but it sure FEELS like it. I'd like to think I could tell my T about that, too, but I dunno.

That is why I won't trust the DBT crap. To many damn rules and punishments. YOU are paying her it is time to stand up and say enough is enough I NEEDED YOU! If she can't give you what you need find someone who can. I am sorry that happened to you.

Zooropa,
I'm sorry it's so hard for you right now.
I've never heard of a rule like that. I'm guessing it is so that client's don't start SI'ing as a way to gain more of T's attention? And to allow you to talk to her would be kind of like a positive reinforcement. And she wants to give you no reinforcment because she wants you to stay safe!

It sounds like your T really cares about you a lot. And sometimes sticking to those kinds of boundaries and rules are the best way to show caring.

Be kind to yourself, ok?

zooropa, why didn't you call your t before you did the SI? That is what you are supposed to do in DBT. The logic behind the 24 hr rule is that once you SI to cope, you don't need help anymore because you already chose SI instead of using DBT skills. If you want help to use skills instead of SI, then that is when you call T. As Darkrunner said, they don't want to reinforce the behavior so you will not get attention for doing it. Did your T want you to do a behavioral analysis that you can go over with her when you see her again? This way, you can identify what was happeneing and how you can best cope next time.

Also, it sounds like your t really cares a lot about you because even though she is adhering to the rules of DBT, she asks you to call exactly 24 hours later to talk to her. My T wouldn't do that, I know that for sure. I would have to wait until next session. Try not to see it as abandonment, but rather your T doing her best to help you NOT SI in the future. Next time the feelings are overwhelming and you can't remember what skills to use in the moment, call T!

(((((Zoo)))) I want you to know you are loved and cared about here. Even if you SI you are so much more than how you feel about yourself.

I also really do NOT like that attitude toward me when I have SI'd. It gives me the feeling that the T thinks she has to put in place a rule so I dont manipulate her with it, but actually, it feels like *I* am being manipulated by a rule. To not give "attention" and re-inforce the behavior. I feel like I am being treated like a monkey in a psychology experiment. I never really said much to any T about that, because I felt like I would be seen as manipulative. You just cant win.

Personally, it makes me wonder if they really DO understand the feelings behind the self-injuring. If they could know what thoughts, feelings or even dissociated-ness goes on with that maybe they would treat it differently. I feel that it has been up to me to tell the T, but I wonder if, b/c of the bpd stuff, I will be believed or seen as a manipulating borderline. This whole issue, as you can see, is a hot topic for me.

I understand you and I understand completely why you would hesitate to call. DBT Ts are not (I think) real careful with the SI stuff and get tough. That kind of thing makes me feel worse. I get the feeling you felt cared about. So,thats a good thing. Can you tell her what you are feeling? Your fears and what you are going through and why you SId and then called her (when you talk to her tomorrow)?

I think that is what I would do. I am saying that b/c if I were to SI now I doubt I would tell my T, even ftt. Id deal with it and move on. Sounds terrible, but I dont like the attitude that borderlines SI for attention. How long has it been since you last SI'd? I dont remember you posting about that before. Did you ever go to the SI board?

I think I am just blabbering about my stuff in regard to SI. I hope i didnt bring you down even further Maybe the DBT attitude triggers me and that is why I am writing what I am. It feels like cold love, what a coincidence that that would trigger me

Im so sorry Zoo that you were in this state of mind Can you try to post before that you "want to"? I have done that and it is helpful.

I don't think that DBT therapists think people SI for attention. In fact, my t doesn't, and she is a DBT trainer. They actually see SI as a coping skill that works very well in the moment, but causes physical damage that can cause secondary problems (infections, scars, etc). DBT skills are meant to replace SI. I think there is the belief that people SI because they are in overwhelming pain. I would say that is accurate.

It seems like one effect of the 24 hour rule might be to discourage clients from sharing that they SIed with their Ts. If they are going to get punished for doing it (24 hour rule), then maybe they just won't be open and tell. Maybe the DBT Ts would like to think that if they don't hear about anyone SIing, that it is not happening--don't ask, don't tell. Just seems kind of naive to me... I am used to the therapeutic relationship being one where complete honesty is encouraged. I would be really hurt if I were punished for being honest. Ouch.

Zooropa, if you still need support from your T tomorrow, I hope you can call her. She may have felt her hands were tied by that rule and she had to adhere to it. I'm sorry things have been so hard lately.

doesn't sound very theraputic.

I want to say that I agree with everyone that the 24 hour rule doesn't feel very helpful...

But in Zoo's case, she is in DBT therapy, and it sounds like this is part of it. And since she has this agreement with her T, her T has to follow the guidelines to maintain the boundaries that have been set up...but it seems like she is doing it in the most caring manner possible (with the invitation to call after the 24 hours passses).

How are you today, zoo??

((((zoo))))

I only barely started DBT in NY, then I was kicked out into the psych unit, kicked out of grad school....but I digress.

I understand where they are coming from, and I actually agree with the idea. But I know it hurts, and I know it feels like your T doesn't care. It sounds to me, though, that she really *does* care, a lot. She made sure to tell you to call in 24 hours. She has a protocol to follow, and in DBT, they're really strict about following the rules - it's what the entire program is based on. It's so structured, that to take away that structure detracts from the program, and the program is what is going to help you in the long run.

I hope you're feeling better today, zoo. And I hope you can call your T and get reassurance that she does, indeed, care about you.

I agree with you Tay, I have been told this, too. That when I SI, it works to reduce the pain and is a way to cope with feelings when overwhelmed. I have also been told that in terms or reinforcement, to not give it much attention as it reinforces the behavior. I dont know how to reconcile the two attitudes I have been shown when I have SI'd and thank God I am not doing that now. I think the attitude you are talikng about is much more compassionate and understands me better b/c that is one of the reasons I would SI. But what about this idea of not reinforcing the behavior? Have heard of or run across that attitude toward SI?

I wish I had had a T that had said to me, "How can you better cope with your feelings next time you feel overwhelmed?" Sadly, no one ever said that to me.

Zoo- I know it feels like she doesnt care and I like what Tree said about this being the protocol and, you know, this will pass and you will call her and she does seem like she cares about you a lot, and I think you will see her caring when you call. I really love that she showed such concern for you and if you were OK in that moment and then told you to call tomorrow.

How are you feeling today? I am so sorry I brought my own very negative atittude about therapists and this to your thread. I hope you are doing better today. Please post and let us know how you feel today.

yes, that's exactly why they have that rule, and I understand it on an intellectual level, it's just that emotionally it HURTS.

thanks for that, Tay, I really needed to hear that it sounds like my T cares about me. I know she probably does, but yeah.

As far as what happened today, I didn't actually see what I did as SI (took some pills not prescribed for me so I could nap). But after I took them I felt really bad b/c I realized I shouldn't have done it (the pills not being mine=illicit drug use) and I started thinking 'just take them all, might as well just do it' etc and that's when I called T. I felt like I WAS calling her before I SI'ed.

But I can totally see how, if we had to make everything black and white, what I did would have to fall under the umbrella of "self harm". I'm not sure I agree with such black and white thinking in a therapy that is BASED on the concept of dialectics, but whatever. I will talk about that to T at my next session, maybe.

thanks so much, Blue
I'm not sure that I've posted on this board about SI, but I do post over on that board sometimes, more often when I'm struggling. My usual way of SI is cutting so what happened today is different and I still don't really see drug use as a form of SI but it's something I'll have to talk to my T about.

I agree with what you said about DBT T's, I've seen that cold, toughness at times in my own T and certainly heard stories here and elsewhere about other Ts. I think it's different from a lot of therapies in that there are some very strict protocols for the Ts to follow? I know that my T is a very warm and compassionate person and I do feel like she cares about me even though she has never said so, but it can be hard when she's doing this "tough love" stuff.

so, while I was in the process of writing that reply above last night, the police came to my door. Evidently my T had tried to call me and when I didn't answer the phone she became concerned, especially since I live alone and my SI yesterday involved medication and I have a history of overdose. So she sent them out to do a welfare check.

Wow, that was bizarre. Obviously I was ok and they left after about a half hour or so but it was definitely weird having 2 police officers standing in my apartment, very triggering. And I didn't come back here to post the reply I had written until this morning, but anyway that's my update.

thank you all for your posts and your support and your opinions, it means a lot.

Oh my gosh, Zoo! That would freak me out, having the police called. I'm glad your T called, though. She must have really been scared for you.

Did you get to talk to her yet?

I am glad you are okay, zooropa.

I haven't talked to her yet, I have a couple more hours to wait until the time she said to call her. I'm really nervous. Basically I just want to say to her "I need to make sure you aren't giving up on me". I don't even know what else to say so I'm pretty sure that's what I'll start with. I'm super anxious about it, though.

Good luck. Hope it goes well.

Zoo- since she tried to call you it doesnt seem like she has given up on you- quite the opposite. I think she is concerned and cares very much. For some reason I really like it when Ts break that T rule and call their client to make sure they are OK.

Well, its evening now, how did it go?

I called her at the appointed time, but had to sweat it out a couple of hours before she called me back. Believe me, in that couple of hours my mind was spinning out alllll kinds of stories! (she hates me, she's doing this on purpose to make me suffer, she's not going to call me back, she's working on how to fire me, etc etc).

When I called her I left a message saying "I need to know you're not giving up on me" and so when she (finally!) called me back the first thing she said was "hell no I'm not giving up on you!" so that was awesome.

she also said "I'm sure it was a bummer having the cops come to your place last night, but I was scared! I tried to call you and when you didn't answer I thought "she'd dead' and I was scared so I called them. I don't want you dead."

so we talked for maybe 10 or 15 mins and then she said "ok, I'll see you on Monday" (reg scheduled session) and I asked her "so, now if i need to call you, I can, right?" and she said "yes! anytime."

so I feel about a milliondy times better. Thanks for being with me through this, PC friends, I appreciate you all so much.

Wow, zoo....what a caring thing your T did for you! It would've freaked me out too to have the police at my door, but WOW....I don't think my T would've taken such a caring measure....

I'm glad you're feeling better...

(((((((((((((zoo)))))))))))))!!

I am SO glad T said all the right things. She sounds awesome

I remember early in therapy, I was having sui thoughts and T told me that if I was in the hospital, he wouldn't be able to work with me there (hospital policy) and i asked him if I could come back to him when I got out of the hospital and he replied SO emphatically "Absolutely, no question about it". It just felt so reassuring...to know that no matter how badly I screwed up, T would still accept me. I got that feeling reading about your conversation with T. She will be THERE for you, no matter what.

Take gentle care of you this weekend, zoo...

Your T sounds wonderful. (yours too, zoo)

In my last session, my T pointed out how I have always made the most out of unhealthy situations (childhood, marriage, work life, etc.) and said that when I start to get more energy, I need to evaluate all the areas of my life and figure out where I am sufficing....and to either make it better, or find something better.

I told him that it feels like an overwhelming task. He said, "We'll take it one step at a time"...

It is nice - but scary - knowing that he'll be with me every step of the way.

((tree)) and ((mue)) I don't know what it's like for you guys, having a T that cares and is committed to being there with you throughout the process, but for me it's so hard to trust that. Every time she says something like that, I trust her a little more. And every time she picks up the phone when I call, or returns my call, or is just there in her office waiting for me, week after week, I trust a little more.

It IS scary, MUE. I've never had that in my life. But it is wonderful, too. I can see how just that part of therapy, just the relationship itself, can be such an important part of the healing. I keep expecting my T to treat me the way my mother would have and every time she doesn't do that, another part of me realizes that I never deserved to be treated like that in the first place.

And when T can still look at me and talk to me and treat me the same, even knowing about my trauma, even knowing details that nobody else has ever known, it takes away some of the shame and lightens that load just a little bit more.