So, T and I have been talking about shame. Ugh. Is there anything that feels worse than shame??

I told T yesterday that I want to throw the shame away, but that would mean that I have to throw me away. T latched right on to that, and said that we need to find a way to separate ME from the shame, because I am NOT the shame. The shame was given to me by other people.

I see him tomorrow, and he laid out this big plan: "On Thursday, we'll do this, and this, and this". He's never done that before, I ALWAYS get to decide how therapy is going to proceed, always, always, always. I don't know if I WANT to do what he wants me to do on Thursday, and I even told him that (I think I said "Or maybe we can just play games, like dots and uno" ). He won't make me work on any thing I don't want to work on, but I won't want to disappoint him, so I'm not sure what will happen.

T has told me recently that he really doesn't want me to suffer and it makes him want to jump in to do things to make the suffering stop....but he said that that isn't what he is there for, and he has to hold himself back and let me find my path. It seems with this Thursday thing that he's forgetting that.

I read somewhere once that T's make the most mistakes with the client's they like the most. T and I have talked about that a little bit. He said that it's probably true.

So....it feels like T is kind of making a mistake in being SO directive (because I know that's not how he does therapy), and I really don't think that *his* plan for getting rid of the shame will work, because it's *his* plan, not something coming from my own internal wisdom and drive to heal. But on the other hand, the fact that T cares so much that he's jumping in and trying to "fix" something for me is kind of sweet and healing in it's own way.

I know that T will NEVER *make* me do something that I don't want to do, ever, so I know that we don't have to work on the shame on Thursday if it's too scary. But I do want to move past it Ack, therapy is hard.

[perpetuallysad]

(((Treehouse))) I wanted to let you know I read your post. I don't particularly have advice because I find from reading what other people say on here that all of our therapy is different. I usually talk about what I want to talk about, but sometimes my t/pdoc will take my lead and continue towards something he sees I need to deal with but am avoiding. I don't know. I guess they are all different. I don't mind when he does that because I avoid everything. If I waited for myself to figure everything out, I don't know if I would figure anything out.

Good luck. I hope it goes alright. Plus ts are people too, so like you said, he could have just made a mistake.

Why not try t's plan? You can always change your mind, but maybe it will lead you into some new territory. Latch onto the plan to get past the shame. That sounds so empowering.

[skeksi]

Ooh, Tree, my T has done that, too--gotten so excited and invested in doing a new intervention. Often it scares me and shuts me down, because I worry that it's about 'fixing me' and that I need to respond well so he will be happy with me.

I'm glad you can see it comes from a place of deep caring for you
A lot of times I need to sit with Ts ideas for a few days (or weeks) so that they feel okay and become my own. Then, usually his ideas work, lol. I put a lot of resistance in!

I understand the huge shame factor. I hope that having T care so much helps mediate it a bit. You will find your way through it.

Originally Posted by treehouse

T has told me recently that he really doesn't want me to suffer and it makes him want to jump in to do things to make the suffering stop....but he said that that isn't what he is there for, and he has to hold himself back and let me find my path. It seems with this Thursday thing that he's forgetting that.

Awe - I think that's nice of him to say. He really does care about you.

Maybe it doesn't have to be all or nothing (i.e. all you or all him directing)? Maybe he can make a suggestion and you can decide if it's right for you, thus keeping you in the driver's seat? My T often makes suggestions (she's smart and sometimes they're helpful) but she doesn't get offended if I don't take them as I have to choose the best path for me.

Originally Posted by skeksi

Ooh, Tree, my T has done that, too--gotten so excited and invested in doing a new intervention. Often it scares me and shuts me down, because I worry that it's about 'fixing me' and that I need to respond well so he will be happy with me.

Yes - that is TOTALLY how I feel.

It's not that I'm against trying things T suggests. I guess it just doesn't feel like it will work. And diving into the shame sounds SO VERY YUCKY. It would involve pulling out the piece of paper that I wrote the yuckiest things about the CSA on. I don't want to pull it out

Maybe I will feel different by tomorrow. Or maybe we'll play Uno.

[Melbadaze]

isn't our whole therapy experience all part of working through the shame?

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by treehouse

So....it feels like T is kind of making a mistake in being SO directive (because I know that's not how he does therapy), and I really don't think that *his* plan for getting rid of the shame will work, because it's *his* plan, not something coming from my own internal wisdom and drive to heal.

(((((((((((((((( dear Treehouse )))))))))))))))

My T said, next time we will work on THIS (horrible topic) and I suffered through your same thoughts for three weeks, including the knowledge that I didn't want to "let her down" by saying no.. When we met again, she didn't bring it up, but to my surprise it came up during the hour anyway in a painless sort of way (sneeeeky therapists ) and afterwards I thought that we had made at least a little progress.
I think her Making A Formally Announced Plan was to get me used to the idea of addressing it... even though she didn't force me.

You may be ready to talk about this; but your T has the toolbag and knows the methods. Maybe he's just presenting the tools, you still can refuse if you choose it,but the fact that you two are already touching on this subject may mean that you're ready, on some deep level, to start.

[zooropa]

(((tree)))
Your post really illustrated for me how different Ts do therapy. My T is very directive and has an agenda for most if not all of my sessions. She has sort of forced me to talk about things more than once. She tells me all the time that there is a better way to do things and what it is.

so it's hard for me to know how to respond to your post, because what your T said to you doesn't seem that odd to ME, it's very similar to how my T does therapy, but if you're not used that it must be difficult. Maybe your T mentioned it in order to give you time to think about it and to let it sink in a little bit?

It's so great that you recognize that it's coming from a place of genuine caring and a desire to help you, and that you know that when it comes time for your session on Thurs that your T will let you lead the way. Trust that.

[mixedup_emotions]

Shame is such a hard thing to work through. I haven't been able to go there at all. AT ALL.

You and your T seem to have such a wonderful relationship that whatever you decide to do will be fine. Sharing what you are experiencing now may even be worthwhile to discuss, because it all means something and can help with the therapeutic process.

My T is only directive when he feels that something is dangerous...which is why he was directive in helping me to get out of my marriage and to set up boundaries with my ex. Other than that, I lead the way.

Sometimes I don't like that though, because it gives me too much of the control - so I am not pushed to go places that I would not go on my own - even though I know I need to go there.

*sigh*

So hard....

[BlueMoon6]

I read your post and I am thinking and thinking and thinking. On the one hand, that is SO me, too. If I am given a directive, I shut down and will go with whatever it is so that I am not making waves with T b/c I know she is so trying to "fix" me. On the other hand, I try to stay open to myself and say it wont work if that is what I believe. On the other hand, I feel like I should try what T is suggesting and be open to the process even if I am not familiar with the territory. I have to trust her. Im sure this response makes absolutely no sense. I get confused when I dont want to go there (this often happens with whatever T when it comes to food and what a T suggests I do) or follow her suggestions.

About shame. I feel like my whole life and whatever stuckness I experience is very shame-based. At the core of it is shame. And if I do dive in, as scary and awful it is, I look and look and it ends up being not as frightening. It ends up being enlightening. I was ashamed of things I need not be and I was responding with such intense shame because it was my reaction at THAT time. When I look at it now, it doesnt seem like there is as much to be ashamed of. Like the money issue. It could cause great shame, but actually, in light of my history, there really isnt any shame in taking care of business and my past. In light of a lot of things. In light of csa, in light of attracting abusers, in light of enjoying attention from them, in light of my reaction to emotional abuse from my mother. All of it doesnt warrent the shame of a child that I hold inside me. It is the shame of a child that didnt know any better.

I hope this made some sort of sense. Im sorry, Tree, if it didnt. What I am trying to say it that when we look at the shame, as it seems T wants you to, it might not be as bad as you think. If you are up to it, it might be helpful to move forward.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by treehouse

T has told me recently that he really doesn't want me to suffer and it makes him want to jump in to do things to make the suffering stop....but he said that that isn't what he is there for, and he has to hold himself back and let me find my path. It seems with this Thursday thing that he's forgetting that.

So....it feels like T is kind of making a mistake in being SO directive (because I know that's not how he does therapy),

and I really don't think that *his* plan for getting rid of the shame will work, because it's *his* plan, not something coming from my own internal wisdom and drive to heal.

Maybe start out the session with your above ideas ^ ?

Do you really believe these of do you just want to avoid tackling this?

Does this affect your empowerment?

(((((((tree)))))))

can we banish shame to siberia? i'd really like to. i have been trying to deal with mine some and i can usually only break off a little piece at a time as it is so painful and bleeds and bleeds and bleeds. (cue tori amos music now.) but once i've felt it it is like ok that part is dealt with. i can't change my past but hopefully i can accept it. i can't even really see yet that the shame isn't really mine but just feeling it does bring a release. it's like a great weight lifts just to admit it.

i so relate to what you say about avoiding your feelings, tree. i just want to stuff mine in a louis vuitton suitcase and take them to the int'l airport and put them on the plane going to the furthest destination. i don't have any suggestion for how to tackle it with T but just want to say i understand how incredibly hard and scary shame is to deal with.

About shame.

I hurt my back yesterday, so I went and had a massage tonight (I could start another entire thread about that - omg). I do NOT have time to have a hurt back, and I am trying everything to feel better.

All through the massage, I was wondering what this woman thought about me being a CSA survivor. I wondered if she changed what she did at all, or if she worried about it. All of a sudden near the end of the massage, I saw me through HER eyes instead of MY eyes and realized...she didn't know. I hadn't told her. It's not tattooed on me anywhere. To her, I'm some mom who hurt her back and who needs a massage. That's it. I seriously SERIOUSLY felt like - totally shocked by this.

And I realized that while I am drowning in this shame, to everyone else, I'm just me. Not better and not worse than anyone else. A mom who homeschools and who is a musician and likes to knit. Just ME. No one can look at me and see what happened to me. T said shame is the eyes turned inward and I think I get that now.

I don't know what all of this means really for me and my shame and my healing. But it feels like SOMETHING, you know?

[zooropa]

that's amazing, tree. One of those real lightbulb moments!

what your T said, about shame being the eyes turned inward? I don't really get that. It's like I KIND OF get it, and then it slips away from me. That feels like something big to me, too.

[BlueMoon6]

WOW, Tree! That is so profound. To see yourself as another person sees you. Especially someone who is a stranger giving you a massage. That shame is the eyes turned inward sounds exactly like what it is. We believe our horrors or the horrid way we see ourselves is written all over us. But it isnt! What a HUGE realization. HUGE!

I hope your back feels better, too!

[rainbow8]

tree, you've gotten so many excellent responses and suggestions in this thread. I identify with the shame issues too. I feel so much shame for the way I was as a child, even though nothing was my fault. It's not even relating to abuse so much, just shame for being me and acting in ways that seem weird.

I can only tell you to trust yourself and trust your T. He won't let you go where you don't want to. You don't have to let yourself either. You can always stop. It's up to you, not your T.

[Sannah]

What a great revelation! Good work!

[chaotic13]

Wow..tree 'shame is the eyes turned inward"... I get that. Thank you. I am always thinking that my actions are abnormal in some way and that people SEE in me the me I see and that one isn't very good.

I'm dealing with guilt and shame as well. Last session my T choice to lead me a bit...right into discussing my relationship with H. VERY uncomfortable session, had a major dip afterwards but..now a week later I'm seeing it as a much needed session. IDK...I'm one who is also resistant to being directed in therapy, but sometimes its nice to just try and follow for a while. Unfortunately, after my session my T gave me a homework assignment. I'm still struggling with the shame and guilt that comes from continually questioning if I was the predator or prey. So my T asked me to bring a list of all of the people I think I hurt over the years. She suggested that we review it and once and for all determine which I was. IDK if I'm going to be able to confront all that next week.