[Melbadaze]

I followed my thoughts last night and they led me to visualising T lifting her top and breast feeding me.

My whole body felt so weightless as I experienced this. It got a bit confusing because it was like reaching eutopia and realizing its been there all the time in therapy, but I am so caught up in numbing out and the pain of no breast a loNg time ago. I also realised that the dantasy of the eternal moment is just that, that because I never got my eutopia as a baby its grown and become so much mightier then what it really what have felt....my desires and dislikes have grown out of starviation into monsterous unobtainable freaks..that even if T were to lift her top and I to feed on her breast theres the rest of life to be lived, no one can be that attentive, accept the small baby inside of me that was starved has never worked throUgh the normal phase from The me me me stage to the me and other, its this waiting for something that doesn't really exist anylonger, complete merger that has made me blind to what is reaL, what is available and what I have been getting from T.

[rainbow8]

Melba, I can relate to what you're saying (I think) and I'm sorry that life is like that. I also yearn for what my Ts can't give me, but if they could, it wouldn't be right, somehow, because we can't go back to the "Mommy is me; I am Mommy bliss of infancy" whether we had that or didn't have it.

Did you read the book "Necessary Losses" by Judith Viorst? It's an old book. Her description of that stage of bliss was so "right on" for me . She says everyone goes through that. It's a "necessary" loss, one of many. It's not a depressing book, though, and it's one of my favorites. Maybe it would help you. My Ts have told me I want to merge with them, that I was stuck at the stage where you see yourself as separate from mother.

Will you discuss this visualization with your T?

[Melbadaze]

rainbow, yes I have that book, I hope to be able to talk about that with T, not sure yet if I will have the courage...

[ECHOES]

There is nothing more comforting than T's breast. I was and still am drawn to her breasts.

[BlueMoon6]

Just wondering here because I didnt read the book- Could it be that typical "western" cultural styles of mothering encouraging detachment and "independence" as opposed to attachment turn the natural transitions of babyhood into "necessary losses" at the cost of baby's emotional health? Maybe it is the title of the book that is throwing me because in other cultures and often in our culture extended nursing into toddlerhood, preschool yrs and beyond often do not entail the "loss" of mommy and her breast. It becomes a seamless and natural transition with the child leading the weaning from the breast. Nursing is just one example that comes to mind because of the topic of this thread.

I suspect that many babies/children raised in the typical western way experience mommy as a "loss" and the estrangement that follows.

Id be interested in hearing more about the book and if the author "justifies" the way we typically raise babies in this culture.

[ECHOES]

The book is about all losses. One is the necessary separation from the primary caregiver (mother) that is a natural part of becoming a separate person. Something we experience as a child and as a parent.
She also talks about connection, aloneness..all as part of the separate self.
It is a good book. Judith Viorst is a psychoanalyst and good writer, with a sense of humor, too.
A chapter about siblings entering the family is titled "When Are You Taking That New Kid Back to the Hospital?"

[Fuzzybear]

[WePow]

Note: This is exactly why I do not go to a female T :-)

[rainbow8]

I admit the title triggers me but I thought it was my inhibitions about anatomy, and my issues, so I got past those feelings and thought how I could help Melba instead.

[Elysium]

Wow...

I remember when I was seeing old T, in one session we were talking about something having to do with the anger and abandonment I felt towards my Mother. At least, i think that's what we talked about...it's not all there...just bits and pieces. Anyway, all of the sudden T was talking and I remember it like this: T="Blah blah blah, blah blah, NURTURING BREAST!!"

OMG!! What did she just say?

At that moment, I got all dizzy and couldn't look at her anymore. I could feel myself holding my breath and the only thing I remember being able to say was "Huh?" Then she repeated something about me not being allowed the nurturing breast, but I was too far gone and all I could think about was wanting to snuggle my head into T's bosom so I could feel safe and just fall asleep. It was a completely innocent thought, but I was so embarrassed about my thoughts and I was never able to bring it up with T. I couldn't let myself. I was afraid she would get angry and think I was some kind of pervert.

Sometimes I wish I would have said something. But hearing the words in my head still makes me uncomfortable.

[ahc82]

Originally Posted by Elysium

\ It was a completely innocent thought, but I was so embarrassed about my thoughts and I was never able to bring it up with T. I couldn't let myself. I was afraid she would get angry and think I was some kind of pervert.

Dont you hate that?! lol I get images / thoughts in my head from *innocent* remarks that people make... and it makes me feel like such a sleeze! We've just got to remember that nobody can actually see / hear our thoughts... thank God!

[eskielover]

I find this post interesting.....I wasn't breast fed & it had NO EFFECT at all on me....I have no missing desire for snuggling or closeness.......I had my daughter & had no intention of breast feeding.....I was in the middle of finishing my degree & starting a career......it was the last thing on my mind.

Sometimes I don't think we have these feelings until someone puts them into our thoughts & makes us feel that's how we are supposed to feel.

My thinking here goes along with the treatment I had at an eating disorders treatment center.....where the T there insisted that I had to get in touch with my inner child......there is no inner child in here & there never was......but he sure was trying to push into my head that there had to be. Not every thought that is presented in therapy is necessarilly appropriate for each person. I am not saying that some people may not be effected in these ways, but when therapy starts to tell everyone that they have to feel a certain way because something specific happened in their past......is wrong. Not every person reacts the same way to the same things. That is why psychology is so complex is because each person is an individual & relates in their indiidual way to the things that happen in their lives.

It's important for us to make sure that the things that are suggested in therapy really DO apply to us & not just take it as fact. If it does apply....great, then you have something to work on.....but if we are just accepting it because it was suggested, then it's not so great.

It's a touch situation because if we knew ourselves, we wouldn't be in therapy in the first place......but we have to be in touch with ourselves enough to know whether what is being suggested actually applies to us or not......can you imagine if we accept everything we are told as truth.......we would be in an even bigger mess than when we start therapy.

Just wanting to make this point also because it's important to understand that not all theories apply to everyone.......It's our responsibility to determine if they apply to us or NOT & not blindly accept everything that is thrown at us. Accept what does & throw away what doesn't & don't feel forced to have to feel something you don't feel.

Put the trigger on this because I am sure my feelings on therapy will trigger some here.

[Melbadaze]

yes this is my own thinking...the breast is a metaphor foe the loss of maternal care and love and my body yearns to suckle at t's breast....

[ahc82]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I find this post interesting.....I wasn't breast fed & it had NO EFFECT at all on me....I have no missing desire for snuggling or closeness.......

I agree with your whole post. Well said.

My T actually says a lot of things to me about who I am that I disagree with.... I tell her she's wrong & she tells me she was testing me to see how i'd react.

[ahc82]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

yes this is my own thinking...the breast is a metaphor foe the loss of maternal care and love and my body yearns to suckle at t's breast....

Fair enough

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

yes this is my own thinking...the breast is a metaphor foe the loss of maternal care and love and my body yearns to suckle at t's breast....

If you had matrnal care & love without the breats feeding you wouldn't have that yearning? Maternal care & love is not all about breast feeding & many times has nothing to do with it as many times that is impossible.

Just pointing out that a metaphore that covers all maternal care & love snuggling without breast feeding might be more realistic to all cases without creating the false view that maternal care & love comes only through breast feeding. It is important to focus on the lack of care & love you experiences & focus on that rather than on the breast feeding you are using to symbolize it....just a thought.

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by ahc82

I agree with your whole post. Well said.

My T actually says a lot of things to me about who I am that I disagree with.... I tell her she's wrong & she tells me she was testing me to see how i'd react.

ahc,

Glad your T lets you know she was testing you to see your reaction. All too often in therapy, people just accept it as truth & then make it theirs.....also with the books they read about things. It's just something we have to be very careful about & a most difficult thing to do when we are dealing with our mental illnesses & searching for answers. Many times book are written as "the truth" along with the way therapist presentation of thoughts.

Just something we all need to be cautious about.

[Melbadaze]

i get the feeling, my desire is being told its not real because its triggering..no one has put anyhing into my mind...and I certainly know what I feel...I'm not sure why this has caused such strng reaction here...but i'm still wanting to suckle even if in reality I wwouldn't....its gone its past...but that unmet need is still there...to have eyes mirroring back love to me as I suckle...

[ahc82]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

i get the feeling, my desire is being told its not real because its triggering....

I think the fact its triggering. and that it may not be real are 2 seperate things.

Its obviously real to you, and thats what matters.

[Sannah]

Realizing this need is huge. I know that you will work this need Melba and you will work through this and heal this part of you.

[Melbadaze]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Realizing this need is huge. I know that you will work this need Melba and you will work through this and heal this part of you.

Thank you sannah, I knew you'd "get it"!.

[eskielover]

What I am saying is that it may be your perception of love, but there are many mothers who love their children & care for them who can't breast feed & that doesn't lessen the love for their children, not does is cause them problems later in life.....What I am saying is that the love & caring had to be missing it wasn't just the breast feeding. Babies don't even know if they were beast fead unless their mothers tell them or unless it's obvious because the mother dies or abandoned. them.

Maybe it causes a stir in some ways because it comes across sounding like love & caring only come from breast feeding & that is NOT the case.....even though it's your preception.....preceptions are in the mind.....but if your problem stems from lack of love & caring, that has nothing to do with breast feeding but lack of love & caring feelings in any way. You just need to know that the 2 are not necessarily tied together.......as a fact of many women's lives.

I know that lack of love & caring is a huge hurt that everyone has to work through who doesn't have it......& know that you will work through it. If that is the picture you need to work through it....that is one thing......but just wanted to make it clear that it isn't where the love & caring comes from (without bursting your picture)

I agree with you Eskie.

I didn't feel like Melba was saying "Love and caring only come through breastfeeding" at all. I felt like she was saying "This is the imagery *I* have when I long for nurturing". Two totally different things.

[Sannah]

Melba's issue here isn't the broader issue of the correctness or incorrectness of choosing not to breastfeed. For her, her issue centers around this issue and is helping her to clarify and grab ahold of what is going on for her. This is all that this thread is about..........