[ECHOES]

I have been thinking the last few weeks about some things that T has said recently and more than once.

I have mentioned how I still have trouble talking sometimes. How I censor, begin a thought and then can't go on even when I want to. Or I can talk about something right up until she says "Can you say more about that?" or "What's that like for you?".

The week before she walked me out as I was leaving, something she doesn't do often and that I really like. And I was excited becuase she had only done that a few times. But at the door, with my back to her she made a statement about what we had been talking about--a generous and wonderful gift of 2 beautiful, gently used hearing aids. This is a very enormous gift to me and very meaningful. I didn't have them yet, but I was looking forward to them and to what they would mean for me. At the door when she made her comment, all I could hear of it was "...to get out and be around those people." I spun around and said "I'll send them back if you do that!!". Probably my most genuine and uncensored moment in therapy. lol. That weekend it kept bugging me, the idea of her pushing me or worse, making it sound like a threat! So I called and left a message, asking her what she said because I didn't hear it all.

We talked about it in the following session. Turns out she said she was going to torture me ...to get out and be around those people. Torture me?!? Wow, I wonder if I hear but my brain censored that one. She spent time, after my call and before session, thinking about why she used that word and that it was a poor choice. THEN she said she thought the reason she chose that word 'torture' was because I torture myself so much. (the censoring, harsh self-judgements, avoiding, etc). OH!! So now it's MY fault she chose that word. grrrrrrrr

So the next session I tell her that I'm not happy she was putting it on me, as if it was my fault that she chose the word 'torture'. I do feel tortured by my struggles, but I really think that was a weak connection and a disinclination to own her own choice of words. still grrr

Now, what I've been thinking about (you thought I was done, didn't you ) is that she has asked, no--stated--a few or more times that I may be angry with her. That I might also be feeling 'we' haven't made a lot of progress and feel disappointed about that. And several comments about how long I have 'been coming' (3 years). She wonders if it bothers me that I don't know much about her (We have been over and over this. I don't ask and she doesn't tell. Works for me.) Last session she used the word 'treatment' for the first time in the session. .. .. So, I am thinking she is projecting. These are her thoughts, not mine. Or maybe this is counter-transference. I don't know. But now I wonder.. is she angry with me? is she disappointed in me? is she feeling we are getting nowhere? is she bothered because I am so closed off and she doesn't know much about me? have I worn out my welcome? and so on, there's no stopping me now in my negative thoughts.

I feel like I have no choice but to bring this up tomorrow. And it scares me.
I think it might be scaring me because I can't do this relationship from a distance, I can't pull away into my turtle shell. I have to be there. Unless, of course, she is sick of it all. yikes. what if I create the end?

((((echoes))))

I don't have any answers for you, but I hope you are able to find the words and discuss this with your T and that you come to an understanding about what she meant and what you need.

[granite1]

((((echoes))))
i think you know i dont have any answers for you on this but i do know the struggle you must be feeling and want you to know i understand and you are in my thoughts and i hope you are able to work things out with your T

[WePow]

(((( echoes ))) Well... I wonder if you could have her pretend to be you and you can pretend to be her... then you tell her what you hear her tell you. Then you can ask her how that makes her feel and such. Maybe she needs to try to see it from your point of view?

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Echoes!

Okay, loved this post because I've been going just a little longer. First off, I kind of like that she used the word totrture and connected it to you. To me, it feels like evidence of a deep connection between the two of you. Second, I think she IS torturing you! LOL I think she's deliberately provoking you to see how you react. Of course I could be way off base but my T has been known to be a nudge at times trying to push me to see what he can get out of me.

I guess we will create the end when we don't want to go anymore or aren't getting anything out of it. Maybe T sees this in your complaints about still not being able to be forthcoming and opening up so she's trying a new tactic? I

At any rate, your relationship seems so comfortable now, and relaxed...genuine. It's a nice place to be.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

So, I am thinking she is projecting. These are her thoughts, not mine. Or maybe this is counter-transference. I don't know. But now I wonder.. is she angry with me? is she disappointed in me? is she feeling we are getting nowhere? is she bothered because I am so closed off and she doesn't know much about me? have I worn out my welcome?

It sounded like projection to me too. Very good questions.

I think it might be scaring me because I can't do this relationship from a distance, I can't pull away into my turtle shell. I have to be there.

Do you want to put more distance between you and pull into your shell? It sounds like, no, you want to be close, so I'm just wondering why you mentioned doing the relationship from a distance. It sounds like she doesn't want you to do that either. If anything, it sounds like she wants you to be closer, which I got from her seemingly projective statements about how you may be feeling that you haven't made a lot of progress or how you may be disappointed.

When my T says things like that, it makes me wonder if he is comparing me to "most clients" in his mind and I am somehow doing therapy differently or in an unusual way. Then I start asking him about other clients and how therapy proceeds with them, and he doesn't want to talk about them, but wants me to do therapy in my own way. So, I can get mixed messages!

yikes. what if I create the end?

It doesn't sound like you want to at all, so you won't, right?

Good luck with the session tomorrow!

[Melbadaze]

Echoes, Hope you find resolution to this, its all part of the therapy journey, I feel.

[imapatient]

You definitely sound angry about the "torture" word use. I don't get why it's such a big deal to you; something in your specific history relating to that issue? It sounds very much like a neutral comment to me, using a word in a common, colloquial way. Given your specific history and reasons, that doesn't mean it isn't much more importnat to you (But does she know that?). But you're very bothered, and that is obvious, so I'm not suprised that she brought the anger issue up. As for the rest of it, I don't think it's possible to say much intelligent about it (for us) because the context--your history with her--would need to be explained. So I can't help on the big picture, but on the little picture(s). anger is a relevant discussion to be having. Sometimes we make a bigger deal out of something because we are being driven by a second or third issue that is not being stated. Sounds like she's fishing for that.

Kudos for your ability to assert yourself and take these issues on directly and soon with T. Some would stew for weeks or months before bringing it up.

The use of the word torture seems pretty appropriate. We have a tendency to torture ourselves with negative self-talk/associations, etc. It seems like that was what she was getting at. It doesn't at all sound like she was "blaming" you for her choice of words; she just found the term apropos for what she was saying.

It also doesn't sound like she is tired of you or anything. She is just bringing up the fact that at this point, you might very well be frustrated with how things are going because you have been working so hard for so long. I totally get that.

Talk to her about how you have reacted to what she has said. Clearly you need to talk this out.

[perpetuallysad]

Echoes, I have that internal censor as well. And it is TORTURE for me. Even on here, completely anonymously, more times than not, I censor what I really want to say out of some fear. I honestly cannot talk to the grocery store clerk without running everything through the censor first. Its something I am struggling desperately with, trying to find out why I do this and how to stop myself. Do you know why you do this to yourself? Do you find you always do it, or only in certain situations? I hope this isn't too off topic, but I've never heard anyone else say that about the censor before and it really caught my attention.

As for the word bothering you, I can also understand that. I am very, very, very bad about picking about a person's language (the semantics of what was said) and almost always interpreting it in the most hurtful (to myself) and damaging of ways. I think its part of that censor thing. Its like everything I say runs through it on the way out and everything I hear runs through it on the way in. Does that make sense?

[Perna]

I read it as that it is torture for you to go out, do more, reveal more of yourself, etc. and that hits a nerve (and, unfortunately, gets you doubting if you've made progress, outworn your welcome, etc.).

What is unfortunate about T's using such strong words that reverberate forever is that they reverberate forever. My T once gave me the gift of what she thought of me and said I was "kind but critical". I've now been spending about 10 years trying to free myself of either "critical" (have softened that a little with the fact that I do have good judgment; in critical situations, I can made a "good" choice :-) however, there's still that word "but". LOL. I was not "kind and critical," I was "kind but critical."

Remember that our relationships with our T's are ongoing and no one session is the whole relationship. Likewise, no one word sums us up, especially for all time; we're changing (whether we like it or not) and each session is only a snapshot in time.

I think, Echoes, you and your T have/are talking about the use of the word "torture" enough that it would appear that both of you are engaged? So, it's not likely that the opposite is true; it's not likely that either of you is trying to get rid of the other or there wouldn't be the anger and discussion. Both of you are still holding to one another, still trying to "solve" this dilemma.

No one would want to be tortured, but, as I think we've all said, "torture" is what we do to ourselves (even, sometimes, in just going back to therapy the next week? :-) Sometimes we feel tortured by various things we say and do to ourselves or, by the way others relate to us, our T's included.

I would look at what being able to hear better would mean for you. If you identify a whole lot with your hearing/not hearing, how does that help you or impede you or get in your way? Now how does not hearing well get in your way, but how does identifying with not hearing well get in your way?

I'm deaf in one ear and my husband often gets annoyed, angry, hurt, because often I'm too loud for him. I'm more excitable than he is too and the combination is not something he enjoys, especially close to his ears :-) I feel two ways about that; I sometimes get defensive and remind him (and others who find me too loud) that I'm deaf in one ear. At the same time, I sometimes feel guilty that I don't try harder to remember that and speak softer. My husband worries that my hearing loss will/is getting worse. I sometimes worry about that too. But what that would mean to each of us is obviously very different.

I think the torture word use is kind of similar with you and your T. It's not your "fault" that she used the word. The word is out there, can't get put back in Pandora's box. It can be an ugly word but it also could be a catalyst and reverse euphemism for what change can sometimes feels like. In addition to paying attention to myself when I'm speaking, so I don't overwhelm those around me; I'm still trying to work on shades of difference with "critical" and keeping it more towards critical's positive side of good judgment and seeing what's what rather than finding fault with a person.

I think differentiating between when a word is about a situation, and when it is about a person is very very important and helpful, and the key to helping me understand my work. Yes your T said she wants to torture you but if I were in your shoes, I'd ignore what my T said/did and treat it like a dream where we are all characters in our dreams. I'd realize that I have to live with myself (only) and know myself and I'd look to see how/why/when, etc. I torture myself (that the word would have such significant meaning to me).

I was abused as a child, was very lonely/had few friends, retreated (totally) from the world and others. Any social skills I learned were innate or learned by osmosis (like my cooking apparently; my stepmother was a wonderful cook and I have that knack too but had to have picked it up just by watching/eating :-) I consider myself to have had 30 years of therapy to get where I am now. If my T had used the word "torture" it would have gone right over my head, there would have been no reaction on my part. No so with your T and you. That's what I use to call in therapy a "red flag". I loved my red flags; I'd get home from therapy, not able to really remember the session but those red flags would glow in the dark of my mind, showing me the way :-) Tear the word to bits, Echoes, mine it for all it's worth. Make it mean something healthful to you.

Echoes, it sounds like things are so hard for you right now, keep talking with t, Sometimes when i feel the worse for ware, that is when i usually have some sort of break through in therapy... I hate that it feels like pain to have to reach the good parts, but sometimes for me that is just the way it is..
It is good that you confronted your t, we need to stand up for ourselves (easier said then done) you have made amazing progress with this t and it seems like you have a connection, so keep going and you will succeed!

[kitten16]

Echoes, this would piss me off too. Majorly. I'm with ya. I've appreciated the thoughtful replies of the other posters here, and a lot of these points are valid. But I still think what your T said was inappropriate and insensitive.

I don't think you should let this rest with her. Keep confronting her -- in a nice even way, in a mad way, or in any way you feel. Just do it, and let us know what she comes back with.

About fearing you might create the end -- I don't think it's the end necessarily. But she should be more sensitive to you -- and it was a red flag to me that she didn't apologize, but insisted on making her use of the word more about you than her. I've been exposed to that tricky weaselly therapisty scot-free crap and just have a really low tolerance for it. Ugh!

Anyway, good luck and please update!

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I have been thinking the last few weeks about some things that T has said recently and more than once.

I have mentioned how I still have trouble talking sometimes. How I censor, begin a thought and then can't go on even when I want to. Or I can talk about something right up until she says "Can you say more about that?" or "What's that like for you?".

The week before she walked me out as I was leaving, something she doesn't do often and that I really like. And I was excited becuase she had only done that a few times. But at the door, with my back to her she made a statement about what we had been talking about--a generous and wonderful gift of 2 beautiful, gently used hearing aids. This is a very enormous gift to me and very meaningful. I didn't have them yet, but I was looking forward to them and to what they would mean for me. At the door when she made her comment, all I could hear of it was "...to get out and be around those people." I spun around and said "I'll send them back if you do that!!". Probably my most genuine and uncensored moment in therapy. lol. That weekend it kept bugging me, the idea of her pushing me or worse, making it sound like a threat! So I called and left a message, asking her what she said because I didn't hear it all.

We talked about it in the following session. Turns out she said she was going to torture me ...to get out and be around those people. Torture me?!? Wow, I wonder if I hear but my brain censored that one. She spent time, after my call and before session, thinking about why she used that word and that it was a poor choice. THEN she said she thought the reason she chose that word 'torture' was because I torture myself so much. (the censoring, harsh self-judgements, avoiding, etc). OH!! So now it's MY fault she chose that word. grrrrrrrr

So the next session I tell her that I'm not happy she was putting it on me, as if it was my fault that she chose the word 'torture'. I do feel tortured by my struggles, but I really think that was a weak connection and a disinclination to own her own choice of words. still grrr

Now, what I've been thinking about (you thought I was done, didn't you ) is that she has asked, no--stated--a few or more times that I may be angry with her. That I might also be feeling 'we' haven't made a lot of progress and feel disappointed about that. And several comments about how long I have 'been coming' (3 years). She wonders if it bothers me that I don't know much about her (We have been over and over this. I don't ask and she doesn't tell. Works for me.) Last session she used the word 'treatment' for the first time in the session. .. .. So, I am thinking she is projecting. These are her thoughts, not mine. Or maybe this is counter-transference. I don't know. But now I wonder.. is she angry with me? is she disappointed in me? is she feeling we are getting nowhere? is she bothered because I am so closed off and she doesn't know much about me? have I worn out my welcome? and so on, there's no stopping me now in my negative thoughts.

I feel like I have no choice but to bring this up tomorrow. And it scares me.
I think it might be scaring me because I can't do this relationship from a distance, I can't pull away into my turtle shell. I have to be there. Unless, of course, she is sick of it all. yikes. what if I create the end?

[Sannah]

It seems that this conversation with your T is going "underground" - that both of you are overanalyzing it and working on it each alone instead of together. It has gotten out of control because you both have worked on it more alone than together?

Maybe start back at torture and throw the rest out because the rest just seems like assumptions and misunderstandings?

Why did her statement about you being tortured bother you?

[Sannah]

Just wanted to add something to this. When you grow up in a dysfunctional family nothing gets talked about so you learn how to work things out in your head (by yourself) instead. To be truly healthy, this working things out in your head (things which have to do with you and someone else) has to stop. The only thing that is real between people is what they both participate in together. Throwing the other stuff out of your life (working stuff out in your head without the other person) is really liberating.

[mobius]

Do you feel like your therapist is unable to "own" other stuff she does that has a negative influence on you? It seems like an apology on her part might be helpful - but that you might have to ask for it directly, too. I hear that this is really difficult for you, and I get why it would be. It would be difficult for me too, as I sometimes nitpick what my therapist says (not that I feel like you're doing that). I know that I sometimes throw out comments without really thinking about them, but if that's the case and I get called on it, I do try to think through why it is I said what I did and repair the connection that might have been damaged.