[rainbow8]

I can't resist starting another thread. What is the difference? How do you know? Does anyone feel like I do, that they "want" more than "need" therapy? Or, does the fact that I want it so much mean than I need it, since something is obviously wrong with me to want it so much?

[WePow]

Rainbow... well, we want what we need. But we do not always need what we want.

It is really important for a T to help a person to know what the goal of therapy is. It is possible to become addicted to therapy. A good therapist will know what is going on in the mind of the client (often before the client knows!). A good therapist will help the client learn how to know the difference between the need for a session or the want for a session.

For example, when I was doing my trauma healing, I had to see my T 3x week. Now I naturally LOVED being able to spend so much time with my T (even though the sessions were painful and brought up a lot of gunk). But I had a NEED to go in to see him and have him help me process through that very dark place I was in at the time.

But now I am back to work full time and I am almost totally done with my heavy trauma work. I still WANT to see my T 3x a week, but I do not NEED that. I do NEED to see him 1x week though. And I will probably NEED to see my T 1x week for several more months. But there will come a time when that NEED will be only 2x a month or maybe 1x month. And when that time comes, I know I will still WANT to see my T more (because I LIKE being around my T a whole bunch!). But I am confident that my T will know when that time comes and I trust T to help me use the medicine of therapy in only a healthy way.

[sunrise]

Rainbow, you've posted before about having unresolved "mommy" issues that you want to resolve in therapy. This seems as fine a reason as any to be in therapy. I think lots of clients work on parental issues.

Has your therapist given you an indication that she thinks you shouldn't be in therapy? I think this would be important to discuss if it is weighing on you. I think it is not uncommon to feel that one's problems don't matter and that one should just "buck up" and deal with it alone. But the truth is, therapists can help us heal, and wanting to heal is a good reason to go to therapy.

I also remember once you said that you thought you were too critical of your children. I know this is not what you are working on in therapy now, but perhaps it is another possible topic for the future, perhaps fitting under the "self improvement" category. I think self improvement is also a very valid reason to be in therapy. (I wish my own mom had gone to therapy to improve in this area!)

I am not sure I really "need" therapy in the same way I did once I started with my T. I really enjoy being with him and find our sessions helpful. He is a positive force in my life--is that enough to be in therapy? I do sometimes feel guilty about being there when my problems are not major at this time. But I don't see him as often as I used to, and we are starting work on some issues from my teen years, which I do feel are important. Yet they are not keeping me from functioning acceptably in life. But dealing them will help me heal more fully and be more "whole." Do I "need" to do work in this area in order to survive in life? Probably not. But I "want" to do work in this area to be more whole and healed and happy. I think that's an OK reason to be in therapy. Also, I am starting back to school in the first step of a major career transition. I think there are bound to be stresses, and it will be great to have T as a support in my life during this time. I "want" him to be there for me, but I wouldn't die or anything if he wasn't. I would just be sad and miss him tremendously.

Rainbow, since you have a specific issue you seem to be working on in therapy (the mommy thing), you could always work on that for a while, and after dealing with it satisfactorily in therapy, reassess if you should continue.

i think wepow explained it beautifully. it's all about why you are there, what your motive is. if your motive is to get better and work on your real life issues then i think you'll have to make a very strong commitment to do this hard work. it isn't going to feel good and you will likely want to run away when it's painful and slow going. you will get distracted at times by the transference but that is normal i think. you just can't allow yourself to stay stuck in that place of focusing on the T relationship though. you have to get back up and continue with the hard work. on the other hand, if you just want to go to therapy for the good feelings you get from the T relationship but don't want to work on your issues then i do think it is a waste. working on your issues won't be a smooth process and it can't be done perfectly, but if it is the goal then i'd think it would be good to give this T a shot at it.

i think the question is are you up for doing the hard work, not perfectly, but the best you can? if you're not it is totally okay too. no reason to be hard on yourself for that but i wouldn't stay in therapy if that is the case. i think you have to be rigorously honest with yourself regarding this and really count the cost as to whether or not you are willing to do it. personally, i wouldn't go to therapy if the primary focus is why you don't want to quit therapy. that would be focusing on the transference rather than real life issues and is bound to fail. isn't transference normal and nothing to get that distressed over? that is how i understand it. the point is to work thru it but it isn't the main course of therapy. it's just a side dish, or a very tempting dessert in your case. i think the focus needs to be the real life issues like sunny mentioned. coming up with concrete real life therapy goals would probably be a good thing to do if you haven't already identified some. it's not that you'll never talk about the relationship in therapy but that isn't why you'd be going to therapy. the point would be to deal with real life issues.

[ECHOES]

I don't think it matters.
Wanting your life to feel better is enough reason to be in therapy.

if i didnt NEED therapy i would not go. it costs money, real world relationships would be far more fulfilling, time, etc I would have NO WANT for it if i did not need.

but i NEED therapy.
how do i know...
-- my real world life is a total disaster

for example:
-i am 20 and i want to be dead every day of my life
-i grew up in foster care after being removed by CPS from terribly abusive bioparents. this led to some disorders characteristic of severly abused kids. these disorders affect my life and interrupt my life in MANY ways
-i am really afraid of people

i look at my life and it is so sad. i want my life to be better and i need help. i need help. i dont' know how to do it myself. my life is a mess.

I NEED therapy. i can pinpoint how my life is so unfullfilling for someone my age and i dont know how to fix me. that is NEED.

I think you need to ask yourself-----
----what do you need to change in your life and why?
----what is happening in the real world that you need therapy?
----what is affecting your life and making it a mess?

[Luce]

Originally Posted by Solarwind

if i didnt NEED therapy i would not go. it costs money, real world relationships would be far more fulfilling, time, etc I would have NO WANT for it if i did not need.

but i NEED therapy.
how do i know...
-- my real world life is a total disaster

for example:
-i am 20 and i want to be dead every day of my life
-i grew up in foster care after being removed by CPS from terribly abusive bioparents. this led to some disorders characteristic of severly abused kids. these disorders affect my life and interrupt my life in MANY ways
-i am really afraid of people

i look at my life and it is so sad. i want my life to be better and i need help. i need help. i dont' know how to do it myself. my life is a mess.

I NEED therapy. i can pinpoint how my life is so unfullfilling for someone my age and i dont know how to fix me. that is NEED.

I've been almost exactly where you are, Solarwind. Twenty years later I can tell you that life is good, and every day I am so thankful for being alive. Stick with it for a bit longer, hun.

Rainbow, I think you have some very real attachment and enmeshment issues to work on in therapy. The bigger question would be if you are willing to truly examine them and challenge them or not. The danger for you, I think, is that therapy gives you what you perceive you need (that closeness), but simply basking in that 'therapy glow' will not change anything for you at all. You will remain enmeshed in that therapy dance of expectation and eventual disappointment.
If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have gotten. This time in your therapy what can you do differently?

[rainbow8]

I am so grateful for all of your thoughtful replies.

we want what we need. But we do not always need what we want

. Thanks for your examples, WePow.

Has your therapist given you an indication that she thinks you shouldn't be in therapy?

No, sunrise. She thinks that she can help me.

i wouldn't go to therapy if the primary focus is why you don't want to quit therapy. that would be focusing on the transference rather than real life issues and is bound to fail. isn't transference normal and nothing to get that distressed over?

bloom, intellectually I see what you mean, but emotionally I don't. The real life issue is why I want therapy even though I have a pretty good life. For me, transference IS something to get distressed over.

Solar, you probably think I'm spoiled and a whiner, and I don't blame you. I can see that you really need therapy and I know you can have a better life if you stick with it. Please don't give up. You ask a good question. Maybe it's what is NOT happening in the RW that is my problem. Thank you for that.

I think you have some very real attachment and enmeshment issues to work on in therapy. The bigger question would be if you are willing to truly examine them and challenge them or not. The danger for you, I think, is that therapy gives you what you perceive you need (that closeness), but simply basking in that 'therapy glow' will not change anything for you at all. You will remain enmeshed in that therapy dance of expectation and eventual disappointment.

Luce, how do you know this? You're right that it leads to disappointment. Do you know from experience or reading? You're not a T, are you? I need to ask my T how we are going to work on the attachment issues. She knows the problem, but she follows my lead. EMDR led to "I want Mommy". I don't know why I am telling all of this over and over to strangers, though you don't seem like strangers.

Thanks, again.

[Luce]

I know only what you have told us, Rainbow, and no, I am not a T! (Though it might be good if I were - I think I'd be financially better off at any rate!)
But, you know, it isn't difficult to see that you have some attachment issues that cause you distress, and it is also pretty easy to see the connection between wanting enmeshment with your Ts and the enmeshed relationship your own mother had with you, which you yourself have described as her 'giving you everything' and being there almost 'too much'.
I guess what I am wondering is what was left unresolved from your relationship with your mother? It seems there was some key thing that was never resolved between the two of you, or some need you had that she was never able to fulfil, despite her constant attention and love.
Some things you have written make me wonder if your mother was ever truly able to see you for who YOU are... she was able to give you everything and be there for you, but what was it that was missing? You've written before that as a child you never shared your feelings with anyone... did that include your mother? Or is it that you've learned that 'love' IS enmeshment, and that if someone is not a part of every intimate detail of your life then you do not feel loved?

I wonder... if there were one thing your mother could give you if she were alive today, what would it be?
And if there were one thing you *wouldn't* want your mother to do or say (but she probably would) what would that be?
They're just rhetorical questions really and you don't need to answer them. Just stuff to think about.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Solar, you probably think I'm spoiled and a whiner, and I don't blame you. I can see that you really need therapy and I know you can have a better life if you stick with it. Please don't give up.

no. thats not why i posted it. i posted it because i only understand alot of stuff by example and i gave an example of why i KNOW i NEED therapy.

sort of answering your question "How do you know?"

thats how i know. big red flags

but others...maybe its not so clear.

can you pinpoint any reasons you might need therapy? look its wide open, because what is important to people is really individualized. some poeple goto therapy to talk about their days and get support, some people goto therapy to get help with specific problems like fears of tests, fear of marshmellows, etc, some people goto therapy to learn more about themselves, and some go for more severe issues, etc, etc.

whether a person NEEDS therapy is a really a individual judgement that only that person can make.
if you have the $$ and you want to be in therapy, than why is that a bad thing? there is always improvements we need to make about ourselves and our lives. and i guess it can only be harmful if we dont make any improvements/changes/alterations, etc...OR if therapy is taking away from the real world interactions in our lives.

[skeksi]

I see it as, I have certain specific needs, and my therapist and the therapeutic setting are the best way to meet many of those (such as a need to process past abuse, learn to tolerate feelings, etc.). These are needs that require training and much patience to meet, so my T is uniquely suited to help me with them.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Solarwind

can you pinpoint any reasons you might need therapy? look its wide open, because what is important to people is really individualized. some poeple goto therapy to talk about their days and get support, some people goto therapy to get help with specific problems like fears of tests, fear of marshmellows, etc, some people goto therapy to learn more about themselves, and some go for more severe issues, etc, etc.

whether a person NEEDS therapy is a really a individual judgement that only that person can make.
if you have the $$ and you want to be in therapy, than why is that a bad thing? there is always improvements we need to make about ourselves and our lives. and i guess it can only be harmful if we dont make any improvements/changes/alterations, etc...OR if therapy is taking away from the real world interactions in our lives.

You know, my therapist said the same thing. Not eveyone goes to therapy to deal with heavy trauma or a specific goal. Some go to get support for their day to day lives. Or even an ED can turn in a direction that the client and T werent aware of.

It doesnt look to me like you want to go to therapy because you are addicted to the relationship. It does seem that way, but it seems more to me that you are in distress over needing that relationship in your life when you have so much. And what the reason could possibly be that you would need it so badly.

I have to say....I feel EXACTLY the same way. I often wonder why the heck I am there. I have so much going on in my life, why this relationship with a therapist? I dont know how to explain it, but, besides dealing with childhood trauma, I know I dont have a secure or stable base from which to go about my life. I am not about to crumble and fall, I have a lot of responsibility and I do a lot in my daily life and I am hopefully doing it pretty well, but that hole, that damaged center, keeps a part of me very young. Im there because a part me is a small girl who is hurting. I can try to love her and soothe her, but her voice needs to be heard. If she is confused or not confident, I check things with T. And, of course, if memories come up, T is there. I dont mind if I am in therapy for the rest of my life. As long as I have good insurance, I will go.

[rainbow8]

Blue, thanks for your reply.

It doesnt look to me like you want to go to therapy because you are addicted to the relationship. It does seem that way, but it seems more to me that you are in distress over needing that relationship in your life when you have so much. And what the reason could possibly be that you would need it so badly.

That's it! I can't believe I would say something like "therapy gives me a reason to live!" I don't know where those words came from. It must be some deep, dark place inside of me because I have so many reasons to live!

[WePow]

Rainbow - I sure understand that emotion. There have been many days (today included) when the ONLY reason I decided to stay around as a person was because my T would be hurt if I gave up. Sure, I have a small handful of other people who matter to me - not many though. But sometimes life is just too hard for too long and a person can give up on the inside. It is not about me being selfish as I had one person years ago tell me. It is because life has been what it is. Bottom line for me is that right now in this time of things, therapy does give me a reason to live. Sorry if I shared to much.

[purple_fins]

I like what WePow posted on the first post-- Very well said.

I don't think it's a real indication that someone "needs" therapy just because they want it real bad..... a lot of people like the spotlight on them and like to talk about themselves and feel more comfortable being allowed to have little regard towards the other person(not saying that's your case)..... some people really LOVE such a situation and yet can function well enough outside of therapy-- with work, relationships and life in general.
If the therapist doesn't mind and is willing to go along with it then one could be in therapy for a long long time. (not saying those in therapy a long time are of this situation-- each therapist knows the difference in such clients, it's not a secret to them) It doesn't mean the client is fixing or working on anything-- he/she is just getting a "want" met.

I guess it's sometimes up to the T. to figure out what is what and decide if they truly believe they can help the client-- thus the client "needs" therapy--- or if the therapist just likes the $$$ and is willing to override the best interest of the client and allow the "want" to be met minus the help.

I wish you the best in your journey.

fins

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by WePow

Rainbow - I sure understand that emotion. There have been many days (today included) when the ONLY reason I decided to stay around as a person was because my T would be hurt if I gave up. Sure, I have a small handful of other people who matter to me - not many though. But sometimes life is just too hard for too long and a person can give up on the inside. It is not about me being selfish as I had one person years ago tell me. It is because life has been what it is. Bottom line for me is that right now in this time of things, therapy does give me a reason to live. Sorry if I shared to much.

Someone posted (I think it was kind of recently) that they wonuldnt sui because it would make their T look bad. I have definitely been there! But not being there now doesnt mean I dont need T. The article that Echoes posted in the other thread says it quite nicely. That the relationship is healing (at least this is what I understood the article to say). That isnt necessarily about this or that goal, but it can be the healing nature of the T replacing old "wiring" in our brains with her/his soothing words and kindness toward us. As a "good enough" mother would do.

Rainbow, I dont see anything wrong with wanting this in your life. A person who cares about YOU for that hour. Who wants to hear all about Rainbow for 1 hour. In RL does anybody really want to listen like that? Not in my RL. I am the listener and the healer. If I get to say 1 sentence about how I feel during the day its a lot. Maybe it is just BEACUSE you have such a full life that therapy is like an oasis. What do you think?

(((((((rainbow)))))))

you don't need to feel embarrassed about posting here. also, we may not know you in rl but we still care and know you in another sense. we just know the deeper things about one another. sometimes it's safer to do that a bit anonymously.

Originally Posted by rainbow

bloom, intellectually I see what you mean, but emotionally I don't. The real life issue is why I want therapy even though I have a pretty good life. For me, transference IS something to get distressed over.

i probably didn't explain that very well so let me try again. i totally understand that you are quite distressed about the transference/t addiction/whatever it's called. but the transference is only happening because of underlying real life issues. to use addiction language the transference is only the symptom of a deeper problem just as alcoholism is a symptom of something else. there is a reason why an alcoholic drinks. as i understand it they are trying to numb some pain and i think it's the same with your transference. of course an alcoholic still needs to get sober to actually deal with the underlying problem. so, in that sense your transference is something to be dealt with. i didn't mean to give you the impression i'm dismissing it as i'm not. i did also try to qualify by saying not to get "that" distressed over it. i do realize it is very distressing to you. i just think a helpful way to deal with it is to keep the focus on what is causing it. also, i see a number of others here who are quite attached to their Ts in ways that don't seem to me to be that different from yours. i think that strong attachment enables them to do the work. the attachment is also healing. so, in that sense i think it's ok that you are experiencing strong transference. it seems to me the way to make it go away? or be healthier is to do the work that it is underlying it.

having said that i think you are identifying the issues that are causing the transference. you've had some interesting things come out of your mouth doing the IFS and those are definitely to be explored. also, your insight about not quitting therapy being like your mom never died is huge. i could say all sorts of things about that and your therapy but i won't unless you want me to. i am not sure if you are just really hesitant to delve into these issues or if you are shying away from it because you have tried in the past and feel it didn't help. or maybe a bit of both? there are a whole host of other things that might be going on: having unrealistic expectations how fast things can be resolved, having been told unhelpful things from former Ts like when they said you can't get your unmet love needs met now, expecting yourself to be able to now easily access emotions when you may have spent your entire life burying them. i do get the sense that you have a really hard time tolerating uncomfortable emotions and push them away pretty quickly when they come up. for example, you have said you feel silly grieving your mom's death at such a late date. i think that may be a coping mechanism you adopted early on--to dismiss painful emotions in some way so as not to have to feel them. maybe your mom didn't allow you to feel those types of emotions so you had to adopt a coping mechanism of discounting them and pushing them away.

i know another person mentioned addiction in your family and yes obesity would be a food addiction. i had posted on another thread of yours some family roles that adult children of dysfunctional families take on. you didn't comment on it and i am still wondering if you identified with any of them. did you read it? i also asked you once why you initially went to therapy and you didn't answer. i guess i'm wondering are you not answering because those are things you are hesitant to delve into because it might be too difficult or for another reason? of course you don't have to answer me but maybe it would be good to think about why.

i have been rereading an old recovery book and i keep thinking of you. it talks about us being pain avoidant but addicted to excitement. it says that in families where we weren't allowed to feel all our emotions, especially the painful emotions, that we become focused not on experiencing pleasure in life but focus on life as a problem. they talk about us being robbed of the ability to experience pleasure in healthy ways and we instead turn to addictions to gratify ourselves. but this gratification isn't healthy pleasure it is to find relief from pain. they say, "gratification for the relief of pain is not fun." it has the appearance of fun to it but it is not really for pleasure's sake but actually for pain avoidance.

well just some food for thought. i hope something i've said is helpful to you.

[Perna]

I don't think I would want therapy if I didn't need it; another way of putting Solarwind's excellent posts.

Real life can be much more involving than working on healing past wounds and once the major ones are taken care of, there's so much more to do of importance to living, now, and one doesn't really have time anymore for therapy; the scheduling and costs, etc. starts to get in the way of what else one wants to do.