What does a T who doesn't care look like?

In reading someones reply in "that" other thread, I was surprised to read someone say something about respecting those that have T's that don't care and don't go above and beyond..apart from my mouth dropping open that someone would stay in a situation like that, I'm wondering what that would look like and feel like...any imput?

I think a lot of people's perceptions about their T's get into descriptions; my T, whom I'd seen for 9 years before, on the first session I saw her again (for another 9 years) said, "I am not an ambulance chaser!" and I could have taken that to mean she didn't care but how some T's set their therapy boundaries and how a client might interpret that could have a lot to do with thinking a T did not care or go "above and beyond".

I had a T (who recommended my final T to me) who called me when I didn't show up to a group session, which I took to be unusual, but I always show up for everything, a little ahead of time and very faithfully and her calling me was obviously related to her and my relationship and perceptions of each other. My 20-year T probably wouldn't have; as a matter of fact, I was in the hospital ER for 14 hours one day when I had my appointment and called her at the last moment I could, when I knew I wasn't going to get out of the ER in time, and next session she told me she requires 24 hours notice for missed sessions and next time she would have to charge me. I didn't take that to mean she didn't care, I just gave her heck back for it being the first time in 6-8 years that I'd ever heard of that policy It wouldn't have changed what I did; I would still have paid for the last minute cancel, if that was her policy, if only to help myself, keep being able to go to my normal session if I was able.

That is, to me, what therapy is all about; there are rules for my benefit as well as the therapist's and that's fine, the rest of life is pretty much like that too; I like knowing what to expect. It's hard enough to get to know the therapist and she, me, during the actual course of our therapy hours over the years without having to worry about the therapy "frame" and its rules and what to expect out of therapy hours. Therapists can't go "above and beyond" all the time, they're human, but if they do it once or twice, the client is going to "expect" or long for it all the time and I think that's where a lot of problems come in. I had a session, the same time every week, agreed upon by both me and the therapist and she and I always both showed up. We very rarely started late, and if it was the therapist's fault, we then ended that session late by however many minutes; I would hate having had a therapist with scheduling problems or who started late habitually or who I thought ended early, etc., especially if I thought it was due to other clients getting "above and beyond" sort of treatment.

I guess everyone's therapeutic experience and relationship with their T's are unique, and I am not in a position to judge or comment on anybody's t experience but mine. As long as the relationship works for all parties involved, I do have respect for it, regardless of what it may or may not look like to me.

Fortunately, I have a T who does care and has gone above and beyond for me, as I expect he has with other clients in my situation at the time. I consider myself very blessed in that relationship.

Personally, a T who didn't care would not work for me.

One of the reasons I refuse to go into therapy is... that I don't want to become a person who starts every sentence with "my therapist says", be thinking about my t all the time... So I would love one that does not care. Feelings couch, pure, clean, profesional. I speak, t offers a view point, leads me to discover it... I think about what was said, the essence and don't obsess about the messenger... so on.

Ha, Melba, they are all given a sign for their desk that says "Do Not Care"!

My first T operated in a very emotionally detached way, which I typically interpreted as not really caring. He didn't have an emotional investment in my choices (quit my job or work it out?) the way my spouse does. Because I didn't have confidence that he really cared, it meant I spent a lot of time trying to provoke a caring reaction, or find evidence that he did care. Argh! He was careful to tell me that he didn't think about me between sessions, for example. Except I was emailing him most days, so how could that be true??

My current T is more emotionally present, gives me a hug as needed, and generally expresses herself in a way that makes me certain that she cares about me and my situation. As a result, I barely give it any thought at all, her care and concern are a given and I don't have to put energy into that element. It's so awesome!

My T is a very caring person, "IRL" and in the therapy room.

I don't start any sentences that way at all; what T ays to me is private and not shared. The sole exception would be on PC, where people actually ask what your T might have said. but as for dominating my conversations with others - zero.

and I'm definitely not thinking about my T all the time.

So come on VenusHalley, take a deep breath, pick yr courage up, and get started. If you read PC regularly, if's a fair bet that you are feeling a need of therapy.

I wouldn't go to a T who looked like Ted Bundy...

lmao!!!

I think what I get from reading replys today is people have different attachment needs...I think as none of us are therapists we actually proberbly just criss-crossing each other and missing vital clues..at the end of the day I think what we all have in common is no one wants to hurt...what happened to us in our past does have a big effect on how we go about relating to people...and how we want to be related too...I badly wanted a woman to care about me...and now I've got that I ain't letting it go and I treasure it so badly...if others have had bad experiences with mental health proffesionals that is awful...I wish that sort of thing didnt happen, but alas it does..I guess if I was reading about someones "wonderful" therapist when I was hurting, then that would hurt me too...I dont think theres an easy answer for any of this..pain is the common factor..and treading carefully I guess should be the motto of the day??

It's far more complicated.

Of course it is, you're a complex human being. but when you can say "I refuse to", maybe that ought to tell you something.

Well, since I am assuming that "this thread" is partially directed at me, I will bite.

1. T who forgets clients information appointment after appointment after appointment

2. T who arrives late continuousally

3. T who utilizes the client for their own needs or wants and this could range from too much self-disclosure where it "hurts" the client to a sexual relationship to writing a book about the client without the approval

4. T who is untrained to deal with a client, but keeps them anyway and potentially does more damage; this probably comes into play with more difficult diagnosis or specialized issues like substance abuse

5. T who allows their countertransference to get out of control without seeking appropriate supervision; thus impacting the client's therapy

6. T who lies

7. T who abandons a client with no additional references or guidance

Now a T that is a JOB:

8. All the above

9. T's that do not consider sliding scale options when a long-term client is in financial difficulty for a "period of time."

10. T's that move long-term clients out of their regular time-period, to accomodate newer clients; without speaking with the long-term client first and working through it

11. T's that are not connected to the process and are thinking about their dinner plans during your session; or something like that

That's all I got at the moment. I am sure someone will attack me for my responses to your question and I will respond.

Not to attack you, Poet (sorry :-) but how would those kind of T's keep any clients? Did you have one (or more) of those kinds? Why did you stay with that kind?

poet, this isn't a war...no one has to bite or attack...you sound angry...i think your so angry that you need to create anger here to help you rid yourselfof anger...if thats a real expereince you have had that would feel bad ....I would not hang around with someone like that...i'd be gone.....is that an expereince you have had and what have you done about it?

One and two are insensitive and unprofessional. The rest border on being unethical...Have you been treated this way in therapy, Poet? I'm so sorry.

Does this parallel with any other events from your past? Being mistreated, not respected or loved in the way you deserved to be loved? You don't have to answer that, but painful feelings you might have experienced from an uncaring/unprofessional/unethical therapist might resonate very deeply with you if it reminds you of your past. I can tell that you're very intelligent, so you probably are well-aware of this.

What can we do to help? I apologize if I'm misunderstanding.

How are you feeling today, Poet? I noticed your mood says "sad". Would you like to talk about that? How much you share is completely up to you, of course.

Come on, now. Poet, I think, gave a very objective list of what we were asking for. Namely, "What does a T who doesn't care look like?" It doesn't mean that Poet has actually had a T with all these qualities! And let's hope that no T WOULD have all of these undesirable traits, but some of them have at least one or more.....

Why do people keep saying I am angry. I am bothered that people assume that I am stirring the pot when I am simply stating a difference in opinion. And it appears if you look at the history of postings that anyone new does not fit in unless they have the same voice as the group. Look over the posts.....

FYI: Therapists with those qualifications can be found "in the systems" -- the foster care system, the juvenile justice system, the public mental health system, the prison system, etc. Because they are situations with high case loads, difficult clients, little pay, high burn-out, etc.

So yes, Perna, many people have therapists like that because they have no other choice.

Good point, The Poet. I think many of us are blessed because we do have a choice about what T we can go to. Some people don't. I have to admit that I didn't even think about the populations that you mentioned.

I do agree that one of the "risks" (?) of sites such as this one is that people post messages or questions with agendas. And I even worry that I have said something that people don't agree with sometimes.....(I guess I still need to work on self-esteem?)

As far as I am concerned, every group needs people who are willing to state their opinions, popular or not. Otherwise, there's the danger of "groupthink." Sometimes the Emperor might need to be told that he is naked.

Mind you, however, we are generally a site of people with mental-health issues. And nobody always thinks rationally anyway! We need to certainly try to be supportive and to not cause any damage.

I think we sometimes have some great "discussions" in the "social chat" section in particular. How about looking around some more? I hope your initial perception will not bear out. I appreciate your willingness to speak up! (Oh, well, I guess there are other sites we can join, if we are pitched out of this one! )

Just to complicate things, caring and competence do not always go together. I have had treatment from mental health professionals who cared deeply, but which was incompetent and downright dangerous. It ruined my life (and theirs, to a far lesser extent, because of the professional implications).

My experience has been that caring has sometimes clouded professional judgement. People have tended to want to make themselves the saviours of the situation and have broken all the guidelines 'because they care'.

This has even happened with my current T, who when she temporarily decided that she'd been too available and giving, told me she'd done it 'because she wanted me to have a different experience from the previous damaging ones'... and in doing so, damaged me.

Those initial experiences were in two of the systems The Poet mentions- public mental health and foster care. Ironically, I can only afford private therapy now because of the compensation I got for the damage that was done.

I don't see people in this thread stating that they think the qualities you listed for Ts who don't care are much different from what they believe. I don't see a big difference of opinion here. I see that you like to post that you have a difference of opinion with people, but I don't always see that most people necessarily disagree with you. I think you like to think your views are novel or different from the "norm" here (whatever that is), but I see a large continuum of opinions at this site, and I think yours fit into that range. Maybe you are not as different as you think--would that be such a bad thing?

I just am sensing some extra energy behind your posts, Poet, that feels personal. (as in personal to you) There are a lot of capitalizations, which are indicative of intensity. Even if you did not have a therapist like this, I was wondering if there might be something around this discussion that is personally painful to you? I want to add that I am asking this very gently with the intention of being supportive. I might well be wrong and I'm sorry if I am not fully understanding. You can ignore this if you aren't comfortable with it, but I did want to explain better.

I'm double-posting. Sorry. Of course only you know how you are feeling, Poet. There are many voices in the group and yours is one of them. Of course you fit in! Your opinion is very welcome. Discussion is good. Take gentle care tonight, Poet.

can't we just all get along??

Yes, that is what I'm trying...

Can I ask you something? How long were you in foster care and at what ages?
In one of your posts, it says you grew up with money, so I am assuming you were either reunified with your bios or adopted.

This does have a baring on the caring versus competence, which I will happily explain. You see in brief, the longer time you spend in the foster care system, the greater the chance that your placements increase frequently...and you see all kinds of therapists every placement change.. hence you get therapists who (a) don't care, (b) are newbies with savior complexes and burn-out quickly and get another job, or (c) can't get a "real job" elsewhere.

The longer you are in the system, you see alot of therapists paid by the State. The longer you are in, the more likely you are to get the ones that have burnt-out and don't care and are holding on to get the "state paid retirement" benefits. When a state-based therapist is seeing 60-80 clients a week with severe emotional and mental health issues, they stop caring and turn off...so they can go home at night and sleep not thinking about abused children.

Private practice therapists probably limit their practices to a certain number of "difficult" clients. State-based therapists can not do so.

If you think I am incorrect, email me and I will direct you to a blog of a phD who is not burnt out, but discusses her work as her job and what she has to do to survive, have her life and do well at work. It won't be what you are looking for about closing the door on her job and going home. But its real.

And in a perfect world, if a person really cares about someone, they would step back when they are harming them and let them go. This is true about T's, poor teachers, poor doctors, poor vets, etc. I don't think it is really caring when you are damaging someone more, IMO.

If those reading, don't believe me I can give you statistics about mental health treatment in the foster care system. But, i'll hold off, because so far my statistics have been well, i dont know.

i dont know why this is so. i think all these issues are personal to everyone. so if i don't capitalize anything, will that help? LOL

do you want to know what i see...that perhaps is what is bothersome to me.... since you asked.

i see many posters with family, spouses, kids, grandkids, friends, etc, people that love them. gifts...amazing gifts in life.
and i guess i believe that having that should be the focus on one's life, as well as being well.
we all die before you know it and those people in your life that love you are what living should be about..because tomorrow they could be gone or you could be gone.
a T is not going to give you what the people that love you can.

and then there are thousands of people in the world who dont have any of those amazing gifts and would die for them, maybe just one.

and this is not a judgement, its my issue and you asked, but when i see what i think people are throwing away, it kills me.

when i see people who feel their T is more important or as important as your children, grandchildren, spouse if they are decent, parents if they are decent, etc. i dont get it, because familial love is the most amazing gift that so many people take for granted.

when its gone, you cant get it back. a million good T's in the world can't take the place of a family.

is that what you wanted to know?