do you think there is a rule for Ts?

why, Echoes? Because I have had the experience in the past of going to T to see how it is, trusting that I would not be hurt, and then spending 50 mins with Boot-Camp-T. I have left her office in tears, shaking, feeling chewed up and spit out. It is one thing to leave a session feeling that way because of my own emotions, and another to feel that way because of bearing the brunt of Ts emotions.

Just, basically, I am scared. I am in some ways stronger than I was a month or 2 ago, in some ways more able to cope, and in some ways I am not. I have been and continue to be in a state of crisis regarding my physical health, and that of course impacts my emotional health and my degree of emotional vulnerability.

I have an idea that if I could go there and talk about what is going on with ME and not about what is going on with US, I could probably get behind that. I just don't feel safe not knowing who or what I will face when I get there.

I wish you could go, too. I wish anyone could go. I would love to have a 3rd party present.

PS I misread what you wrote, Echoes. I thought you were saying you wish you could be there with me, lol. Now that I've read it correctly, I am curious about your reply and your use of the smiley. Is that the feeling you get from reading Ts message?

zoo, I WOULD go with you, if I could!

because her message (and I only know her words, you know the whole T) says she is still there and still willing to get through these things with you. So, that sounds good, but I can see where it doesn't jive with your feelings about what has gone on in your therapy previously.

I think what's important is how YOU feel. Maybe she says she is still there but if you don't feel it, then her words are unhelpful. If she says she is still willing to get through these things with you, but you don't feel that or she doesn't help in ways you need her to help, then her words are just words.

All that said, I would still go. But that is me and my commitment to not quit abruptly like I have done so many times.

Do you think at this point that therapy isn't helpful?
Or that T isn't helpful?

I guess at this point her words are just words to me, they don't have a lot of meaning. It is helpful, though, for me to hear other people's interpretations because I can get so caught up in looking at things one way and forget to sort of step back and look at it from a different perspective.

but in the end, yes, it really only matters what I think and feel about it. I have heard these same words from my T time and again, and I'm not sure if I have seen the actions that make the words real. In this moment, right now, I can't remember if she has actually done anything contradictory or if it only FEELS contradictory because I don't like it. I am just smashed up tight against this and can't get a feel for the bigger picture.

You feel smashed up tight -- the bigger picture is eluding you -- and here we are all responding with just words, words which in a million years could not grasp the complexities of the situation you are dealing with. But a few things do stand out as pretty likely to be true, a few things that may be contradictory, but that we can at least put into some words that reflect the probable truth of the situation. And all of the things, the good and the bad, can be simultaneously true.

- T's behavior is inconsistent sometimes. Her boundaries are not always clear to you, and they may not be clear to her, either. The lack of clarity in boundaries triggers you and makes you feel out of control. Not knowing when you might cross a boundary with her (and then get "boot camp T") makes you feel unsafe in your therapy.

- T seems to really care about you. She has stuck with you in hard times, she genuinely "gets it" when you are struggling, and she seems to really want to be the kind of T you need her to be, though you keep butting heads about what that means.

- T has never been good with the phone thing. That is, and always has been, one of her big weaknesses.

- T reveals her anger and frustration to you at times when it may not be so helpful to you. Her displays of emotion trigger you, and so your therapy has turned into a way of processing her emotions in addition to yours.

- T is really good at skills training. She has taught you a lot of very useful things to do when your emotions feel too big to handle. You will probably use those skills intermittently for the rest of your life.

I don't know the whole situation, nor could I ever. I trust that when you can find stillness, connect with little zoo, and find the open sort of frame of mind where you can take a step back and look at the big picture, you will know the right step to take. It won't be frantic, it won't be angry, it'll just be right.

ZOO. Check it out. From the article I posted in another recent thread. I added the underlining.

Table 2: Countertransference Positions in Relation to Dependency

Distanced
Disavowal and denial of patient's needs
-Helplessness, hopelessness
-Revulsion, shame, fear, anger
-Unresolved dependency needs of therapist
-Intellectualization of therapy
-Shaming or preventing patient from expressing need
-Overly rigid and/or punitive boundaries; excessive limits
-Reflexive avoidance of patient's need in the moment
-Failure to process patient's dependency conflicts
-Unable to withstand intensity of patient's demands and withdraws and/or punishes
-Lack of adequate involvement in patient's struggle to live daily life
-Objectification of dependent patient with sexual exploitation
-Inability to set therapeutic goals regarding dependency
-Promotes excessive independency in the patient and sometimes in the therapist (e.g., not seeking consultation or support)
-Unable to meet patient's needs with therapeutic interventions
-Inability to distinguish between insecure and secure dependency

I think your T needs to have better boundaries (she needs to be more like "boot camp" T, not less). I think her behavior is fostering dependency. I'm baffled as to why she is telling you to call her while also saying you are starting to call too much! No wonder you are so confused. In my opinion zoo, you are calling way too much. Calls should be for skills coaching only, as she has said. However, she sometimes says something different, she is not clear when she says to call that it is only to be for phone coaching. I think you are vacillating between the extremes of dependency and independency. All or nothing. T needs to be there all the time vs I don't need T at all. That is symptomatic of BPD. Finding the balance is so important. It seems you have a knee-jerk impulse to call your T whenever you feel anything, and that is causing you to become more dependent on her to make you feel ok.

I disagree that she needs to be more like boot camp T, Tay, since this T's version of boot camp T is emotional and punishing. She vacillates between extremes -- enmeshment and detachment -- she needs to be between the two to be effective. If she is going to set better boundaries, she needs to do so in an open, mindful way, where she admits that she has been engaging in TIB and is able to express that her boundaries are not punishments. Yes better boundaries, not in her "boot camp" way. How long does zoo keep waiting for her T to be able to do this and stick to it? How do you know that this T is capable of balance at this time?

Sorry zoo about people arguing about what you should do -- I just thought I'd respond with my thoughts on this to show a different side -- I hope you come to the best conclusion for you.

I don't quite know what to say. I think it's obvious that what my T is doing isn't working for me, and what she is doing is misusing DBT by focusing too much on change and not enough on acceptance. I am not the only one who has lost their balance in this relationship.

Tay, only T and I know how much I call her. Ultimately, though, I have to agree with your statement because I don't WANT to call her at all, so any call is too many calls. I just wonder, is there anyone out there, anyone at all, who can relate to calling T when you don't WANT to call T? If I could stop calling her I would. I really would. I wish I could.

.............................................................

I agree that T's behavior/words are confusing.....at least, I find it confusing. To say you call too much and then leave the door open to call if/when you need is only encouraging you to keep calling even when you resolve not to call so much. She is having trouble with boundaries....as someone said, between enmeshment/detachment.
I don't know that she needs to be MORE boot camp T, but rather some happy consistent medium, where it's clear any phone calls are for coaching only not as this sounds, like calling because you want to call....
The message sounds too emotional to me, not in control enough, like she's desperate to keep you coming for whatever reason. Maybe that she feels she needs another chance to do better work with you than she feels like she's been doing?
I guess I would still go and see what transpired.....but tread carefully and speak honestly. There are a whole lot of confusing messages going on here to me and a T that just frankly needs to be doing a better job sending clear messages and setting clear boundaries....