[zooropa]

Talked to T this morning. She said, among other things, that there is nothing going on between us, that there is nothing we need to talk about regarding our relationship. I can't even tell you how invalidating that is. It's like gaslighting, because it makes me wonder...could she be right?

So? Could she? Is it possible that this is all something going on in my head and that there is nothing for us to talk about?

[peaches100]

Zooropa,

I'm so sorry that you're in such turmoil about this. I agree that it sounds confusing. I suggest that you and your t get an unbiased third party to sit in with you and discuss the problems in your therapy relationship.

[zooropa]

That's the thing...T says there are no problems in our relationship. It's so...it's crazymaking. Because I obviously feel like there are some really major problems, but if she denies it then how can we we ever work it out?
I asked last week if we could have a third part present, she said she didn't know of anyone but I want to bring someone "feel free." I don't know anyone who would be appropriate, so that's the end of that.

[lastyearisblank]

I mean if you think there's a problem there's obviously a problem.

I would take that statement to mean "I care about you and I want to keep our relationship.... but don't make me fix it." Perhaps she knows something is wrong but it could be that things are too intense and entangled now to decide what. Which is perhaps a feeling you share?

If you have an issue with each other, it's going to surface (unless she is the kind of person who can just hold in feelings forever). How would it be to just keep going back for a few sessions and pretending nothing is wrong, and talking about other life stuff? I think that's the test of it. Isn't there a thing like that in DBT? Like deciding if the relationship is more important, or what you need? (I'm not an expert on DBT)

I think she is saying it is all water under the bridge, let's move on. It sounds like she is trying to say to you that no matter what has happened in the past, she is there for you.

[dizgirl2011]

Hey Zoo,

I was just catching up in your other thread also. I think perhaps when she said that there was no repairing the relationship and that there's nothing going on I think she isnt saying its hopeless and the relationship is ruined but that she cannot do anymore than she is doing.

However her lack of consistancey and sentences that make no sense what so ever would drive any client mad!! She says one thing and contradicts herself. e.g. how can she tell you that you shouldnt have brought up talking about "us" in the last 5 minutes of therapy and then whilst going over time by about 20 minutes she says "we have been talking about us for the past 50 minutes" -

I don't see how she cannot see her own contracting behaviours and how that harms a client. Is she in denial or not taking proper supervison! I mean you cannot tell a client "phone when you need me", then "you are calling me too much", then hugging the client and saying "everythings going to be ok, call me if you need to"... I mean wow! If this woman thinks she has no fault in this then she is living on another planet.

However in saying all this, I do think she wants to help you but I also think she does not know how to maintain a healthy theraputic relationship and is not taking reponsibility for her own words in the session. I also think you are right that she is bringing far to much of her own emotion into this.

I know how much she means to you but I also know how much the past few months have been etremely painful. Seeking another therapist may be the best thing.

****huge hugs*****

To me it sounds like she's saying from her end of things, everything is ok. I'm not sure she is completely denying that you are feeling some turmoil. I wonder if she's simply saying "We're ok", that she's not going to bail on you. That the rupture, from her end, has healed.

[swimmergirl]

(((((((zoo)))))))))

I agree with other posters that she may be trying to tell you that she's okay, she's not going anywhere, etc. I can see how it would be invalidating to you though. I can't tell you what to do but I would recommend seeing another T when you feel you are ready. She is too inconsistent with boundaries. However, I know that is like asking you to jump off a bridge without a bungee cord. I've been there. I hope you are able to work this out if you want to.

[TayQuincy]

I am at a loss as to what is going on. Perhaps it is like Dizgirl said, maybe when she said there is no repairing the relationship, she meant that the relationship was not damaged in the first place, so no repair is needed. Could you be misinterpreting things? If what you say in your posts is what actually has been happening in your therapy, then i think your t has lost her marbles!

Okay, I get it that Zoo has a DIFFICULT time with relationships (I hope you don't see that is hurtful or dismissing, Zoo). But I'm having a very hard time seeing how anyone can say that any therapist, worth their salt, would dismiss their client's fear, anguish, hurt, paranoia, that the relationship was coming apart at the seams. I understand that Zoo's therapist might not feel HERSELF that the relationship is in trouble, that happens, but I do NOT understand that if a client tells her therapist that she is in fear that something is terribly wrong with the relationship that the therapist would tell the client, "Gee, I don't see it that way." Hello!???? The therapeutic relationship is about what the client feels. Sure, it's fine for the T to say, "Wow, Zoo, I didn't come away from our last session feeling that way. Tell me more about what you were feeling when we parted last time." I get it that us BPD people get it wrong, that we misinterprete social situations! But if the people working with us, the professional people, tell us, "It's not like that. YOu're wrong." Then how are we expected to learn how other's interpreted the situation; how we might have misinterepreted the situation? And if the person in the relationship with us doesn't ask questions about how we reached the "wrong" conclusion, how do they know how to help us to change our "distorted cognitive thoughts?"

I'm not trying to say that your therapist is totally wrong, Zoo, but I do understand how crazy making some of her statements can be if she's not sitting down and asking the right questions and owning her own part in this. Even is you are responsible for 75% of the misconception, Zoo, she owns 25% (at least!) and I say that because that is the nature of human verbal communication. I sure hope that things improve, even if you decide on a new therapist.

[zooropa]

Thanks, you guys. I hope that's what she meant, too. I don't know if I'll be seeing her again or not, but I still have some hope that we can have some meaningful communication and that I will feel the rupture has been repaired.
I mean, I get it if she's saying she doesn't see any rupture, but it would be nice for her to acknowledge my feeling that there is a rupture. Isn't that what validation is? If she doesn't think there's a problem and I do, who is to say that she's right and I'm wrong?

She did say something to me today about "we're not fighting, there's no conflict" and that sort of speaks to my feelings of jousting with her. I think that much, at the very least, is coming from me and I can own that. It would be good to have some help understanding it, though.

Regardless, I AM shopping for a new T. I don't want my relationship with this T and my therapy with her to end in this way, and I guess that's my motivation. I still want to try to work it out, not so that she won't "leave me", because that is a given. My therapy with her IS ending. But it doesn't have to end on such a bad note. I want at the very least to resolve some of these huge emotions I have about it.

I guess I have accepted that the relationship IS ending, and that is progress for me. Not too long ago just thinking about it or reading about others terminations would leave me feeling sick and sad and lost. I don't feel GOOD about it right now, but it is what it is.

Meanwhile, I am still looking at new Ts, and am still having that meeting on Friday to find out what my options are there. The guy I'm meeting with is just filling in for my case manager who is on vaca, but at the very least I can bounce some of this stuff off of him. Maybe the fact that he doesn't know me and presumably doesn't know my T will be good. MY CM and my T have some not-very-nice things to say about one another, which doesn't help. It's almost like they are both splitting ME, lol.

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by TayQuincy

I am at a loss as to what is going on. Perhaps it is like Dizgirl said, maybe when she said there is no repairing the relationship, she meant that the relationship was not damaged in the first place, so no repair is needed. Could you be misinterpreting things? If what you say in your posts is what actually has been happening in your therapy, then i think your t has lost her marbles!

Tay, I'm sure I am misinterpreting some things. I mean, that's the nature of human interaction, right? The things that I've posted here, though, are concrete. I have a knack for remembering conversations, and when I post something T has said in quotes it's because those were her actual words. Maybe it's not what she meant, but those were her words and my interpretation of it. That is my reality, and my reality is the only one I can live in.

My T has a very sarcastic nature, and I have seen that come out when she is angry or frustrated or feels attacked. And when I'm anxious or emotionally dysregulated, it's likely that some of her sarcasm is lost on me. The thing about the wall, for example. I said "I feel like you're throwing up walls between us" and she said "I don't see any wall there." To me that is CRAZY. And I know my T isn't crazy or stupid. So she must have been joking/sarcastic. You know what, though? There is a time for sarcasm or "irreverent communication" as DBT calls it, and there is a time when it's not appropriate. Even I know that, and I'm no T.

zoo, oh my gosh... it seems like things are wildly crazy all over the place. this cannot be easy. i like how you are giving yourself reality checks and i think you are spot on with those.

sending lots and lots of safe hugs

[Sannah]

I thought about this today and wondered how much "the relationship" has to do with DBT? I also feel that your distress can be yours alone and that your therapist is not experiencing it. The fact that the relationship will be ending one day, is this causing you to react?

[Out_of_denial]

I can totally relate. Tomorrow I have to address the fact that in the past nine months, she has never acknowledged anything that would have to do with her. The fact she's not doing the insurance right somehow and I owe her a few grand by now, that she has never told me what to do in emergencies and always makes me feel like I shouldn't even ever have an emergency because she's such an awesome therapist (she really is, but she's screwing up other things), All the horrible and lonely nights just lost in my own head with no support, not seeing why I would have concerns about her working 12 hours a day seeing clients and being available mentaly at all, she has taken my scheduling flexability and made it so recently I didnt have an appointment time. Too bad it was during one of the worst two weeks ever. She's very comfortable with me, but won't admit that she treated me like everyone threats stay at home mom's. They can accomodate everything for everyone because they have nothing else to do and because of this, they are the first to get screwed out of things because others with lives need certain times.

I love her, really I do. But jeese, all she wants to do is get me to talk about stuff, but she literally contradicts me, says I'm just wrong or ignores me completely about these things.

I think this is a good way to finally explain this where I dont end up looking like the nut. I hate that also. She makes me sound like an idiot, when she's actually the one not dealing with it.

As much as i love her, if she can't at least acknowledge my point of view, I just can't see a reason to continue with her. We can't go deeper into things like this. I am also going to describe how I would like to see my therapy work. I can't wait to see what she says. She says I have her stumped, so maybe she'll like my idead's.

Amy

"Therapy- the Cause and Solution to ALL Lifes Problem's. And I always thought it was beer."

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by Sannah

I thought about this today and wondered how much "the relationship" has to do with DBT? I also feel that your distress can be yours alone and that your therapist is not experiencing it. The fact that the relationship will be ending one day, is this causing you to react?

My T is absolutely, without a doubt exhibiting therapy interfering behavior as defined by DBT in regards to our relationship. In Linehan's book she talks a lot about the therapeutic relationship and the ways in which this is challenging for people with BPD in particular. She lays out the ways in which, as far as DBT is concerned, the T should and should not interact with the client. She specifically states, for example, that the T should allow phone calls for the purpose of relationship repair because if the repair is not made there may not BE another session in which to address it.

There are lists of TIB on the part of the client and on the part of the T. And I am fully willing to admit that I have and still do some of those behaviors. My T, however, is engaging in almost every kind of TIB that Linehan addresses in her book, with the exception of egregious ethical violations like borrowing money from clients or having a sexual relationship, that kind of stuff. From my POV, my T is walking on the razor's edge between being an jerk and out-and-out ethics violations, but there is no doubt that she she is engaging in therapy interfering behavior.

I wish this could all be me. Do you see that? If this could all be me just being me, just being Zoo, just being BPD, that would give me hope. If it's all me then I can count on T. If T is being unstable and inconsistent, though, then who do I count on? She is supposed to be shining a light in the dark for me. Instead it's like we're both just stumbling around and doing a lot of stepping on each other's toes in the process.

[Sannah]

I hope you can work this out with the team then. Sharing this DBT info with them would be helpful.

[zooropa]

I saw T today and just sat there and cried a lot of the time. She told me it's okay to feel it, to just let it wash over me. She told me I'm safe there, and she asked me to let her carry some of the pain for me. She said she cares about me and she wants to hear all about what's going on, that it's not too gross or too nasty (my words) and that she wants to know.

She thanked me for choosing to share my story with her.

When I left she asked if she could hug me and I held onto her and cried and told her "I'm so scared" and she just hugged me harder and said she knows I'm scared and that it won't always be like this and she told me over and over that I'll be okay. She told me to call her tomorrow and let her know what's going on.

I sent her a text a few hours later, thanking her for being there. I told her that I'm hanging on really hard to the things she said today. I asked her not to drop me, and said I'm so scared I can hardly breathe.

She wrote back and said she didn't carry me this far to drop me now, and she said I can breathe and I need to remind myself of that.

that's from my post on June 13, following my session that day. I want this back. I want to feel that safe and that understood and that I am worth caring about. I want it back. Is it possible it's still there, is it possible it's been there all along and i just lost sight of it?

[Sannah]

Maybe because there was something concrete to focus on (your health issue). I have been thinking lately that you both haven't really been focusing on anything concrete and maybe this is why you 2 are getting lost?

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by zooropa

Talked to T this morning. She said, among other things, that there is nothing going on between us, that there is nothing we need to talk about regarding our relationship. I can't even tell you how invalidating that is. It's like gaslighting, because it makes me wonder...could she be right?

So? Could she? Is it possible that this is all something going on in my head and that there is nothing for us to talk about?

from a clients point of view I have had many times when I felt something was wrong with mine and my therapists client-therapist relationship. sometimes I was right there was something going on and sometimes I misinterpreted what my therapist was saying, or my therapists posture, facial expressions. and sometimes it was my mental disorders telling me something was wrong when there wasnt.

from a mental health provider's point of view it is so easy to accidentally mislead a client. one wrong move of the eyes, or twitch of movement at the wrong or using words the client has other meanings for can be interpretted as "my therapist dont like me', "my therapist....whatever the client can be thinking". and accidentally end up in a battle the therapist doesnt know exists with in the client. and we therapists also have to keep in mind what our clients mental disorder, challenges and so much more during our time with that client. Sometimes it is the clients mental disorder or challenges that cause the client to think something is wrong when there is nothing wrong, and sometimes clients do misinterpret what we do and say or look like.

my therapist and I have found a way through this is it the therapist? is it the client? is it the disorder? or is it nothing delema... and I use it with my clients.

5 minutes before the session ends I begin the closing of the session my therapist tells me (and I tell my clients) we are at the 5 minute mark while you think on things for a minute or two I would like you to fill out this survey about todays session.

the survey has questions on it like

did we talk about what you needed to talk about today. yes, no, sort of, in a round about way (and a few other choices)

if not marked yes, can you breifly write a line or two about what the not discussed topic is and if you would like to mark this for discussion next week?

Do you feel our interaction today was beneficial?

if not what can I do to help you feel more comfortable?

Is there anything you would like me to do or be aware of, take into consideration during your time with me?

any questions or other thoughts you would like me to know today?

is there anything you would like to do or talk about next week?

Rate this session on a scale of 1-10 how you think todays session went.

both my therapist and I have found doing closing surveys extremely helpful in keeping our therapy time on track and those questionable delemas from being swept under the rung or built up into "explosions" and 'I want to quit seeing you" thought processes.

my clients tell me they find the closing surveys very helpful too. not only does it help them bring their client therapist relationship problems to me, it also gives them a way to see in writing their progress, make gaols and plans for the next session or telling me things they would like to try that they may think otherwise isnt worth bringing up.

maybe you and your therapist can do something like this and see how it goes.

[rainbow8]

amandalouise, I think your ending survey is great!! I wish other Ts would do something like that. But I have one problem with it. It would take me about half an hour to answer all of those questions!! How in the world could someone do it in only 5 minutes? In fact, it might take me longer than half an hour if I had unfinished business and questions, which I usually have!

[zooropa]

I emailed my T today (something I don't do very often, maybe once a month?) and told her that I've been looking for a new T, and asked her what she would say to a new T about me if she had the chance. I gave her the name of one T in particular that I have been exchanging emails with, and asked her if she knows this T and if there is anything about her she might want to share with me.

I thought sending the email now will give her a few days to think about it before I see her on Monday. Because, yes, as of right now I'm still planning on going to see her again. I just really don't want my relationship with her to end this way, on this sour note, and I have hope that we can find some resolution before we are done.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

amandalouise, I think your ending survey is great!! I wish other Ts would do something like that. But I have one problem with it. It would take me about half an hour to answer all of those questions!! How in the world could someone do it in only 5 minutes? In fact, it might take me longer than half an hour if I had unfinished business and questions, which I usually have!

in general "surveys" are not meant for writing out things that take a half hour to write out. its like when people here make out the "polls" you are asked a question and given options to select from.

the places that have space for you to write out things the question contains the word "briefly" and examples like

Did we talk about what you wanted to talk about? Yes or No

if no can you briefly (ex. panic attacks, school issues, work issues, nightmares, ........) write out .......

surveys are not meant for going into details. the time for that is later when I read over the surveys and plan my next session with the clients.

then the next session I begin with something like

last week you wrote on the survey........ would you like to pick up there our would you like to go on to something else.

in some cases though I dont add the option of "something else" I say something like

last week on the survey you wrote we didnt get to .... how about we start there.. tell me a bit about that.

Ive also been known to call a client between sessions if they indicate on the survey that topic cant wait until the next session.

my therapist just jumps right in.. you wrote this on the survey so lets start there... LOL

the surveys are just like a starting point for (mine or my clients) the next session, to get an idea of how I (or my clients) feel the session went and working out any problems.

once you get the hang of how the survey is laid out and how to do them, its actually very easy for me and my clients to keep to making a list of topics or one liners than it is to write out whole situations.

[dizgirl2011]

Originally Posted by zooropa

I emailed my T today (something I don't do very often, maybe once a month?) and told her that I've been looking for a new T, and asked her what she would say to a new T about me if she had the chance. I gave her the name of one T in particular that I have been exchanging emails with, and asked her if she knows this T and if there is anything about her she might want to share with me.

I thought sending the email now will give her a few days to think about it before I see her on Monday. Because, yes, as of right now I'm still planning on going to see her again. I just really don't want my relationship with her to end this way, on this sour note, and I have hope that we can find some resolution before we are done.

I can totally understand were you are coming from. It really is like watching someone else go through the stages I did when I thought my Therapy was ending. You get to a point of acceptance and you just want to make the best of the ending, even though its still sad. .

You have been so brave through all of this!

[zooropa]

blah. I don't know...I want to go see T, I want get some closure and to hopefully have some better feelings about everything, but there is such a real chance that it won't go well, that I will leave more upset and more torn up than before. Which in itself is not fun, but it's the fact that it takes me DAYS to get back to something resembling baseline that is giving me second thoughts.

Diz, thank you for saying I have been brave. I don't know if I am brave enough to keep taking that chance, though. It would be a lot more peaceful to just stay home in bed with my knitting.