[stopdog]

Does anyone tape their appointments? With the t I just quit, we kept getting caught up in whether something was or was not said by her or me in the previous appointment. I sort of resisted the idea of gathering evidence, but it might have been nice when she said she or I did/did not say something or I said she did/did not say something to either be able to reassure myself that either she actually was not a lying b** and really did not do what I thought or reassure myself that I was not completely mad and had really gotten the situation correct. Now that I am going into terror with the other t, I worry this may happen with her (although our whole dynamic thus far has been less contentious). So I was wondering if anyone did this and if it helped.

[beautiful.mess]

I can see why you'd need that witness. Would the random, garden-variety T have any objections to this sort of thing? I wonder....

[stopdog]

To the first t's credit, the big time when she mocked and humiliated me, she did not deny she had said what I thought, she just said she was kidding and that I should have known.

[beautiful.mess]

What's wrong with people?! Seriously. Sometimes I wonder where some these t's come from, don't you?

[ChristineEsq]

I hate to be predictable here, but I support taping therapy sessions - surreptitiously if you have to - if you believe your therapist is creating a revisionist history of events, behavior and/or statements made during therapy sessions. And I think your instincts were probably right, stopdog.

When a therapist - someone you're expected to trust - refuses to acknowledge his/her own mistakes or negative reactions during therapy, he/she is (1) fostering self-doubt by invalidating the client's accurate interpretations of the therapist's statements or behavior, (2) denying the client*the opportunity to gain insight into how his/her behavior and defenses affect others, and (3) discouraging the client from accepting and expressing his/her own authentic responses to the therapist (as well as to others).

It's incredible (and pathetic) that therapists would ever knowingly exploit the power differential in a therapeutic relationship (not to mention your self-doubt and vulnerability) just to save face, but I know for certain that mine did. I believe clients should always have the right to tape therapy sessions (in theory if not legally) if it means assuring themselves that their perceptive abilities are still intact - it's too important to one's psychological well-being. (Incidentally, it would be equally helpful to discover that just the opposite is true both for yourself as well as for your relationship with your T.)

stopdog, I'm sorry your former T left you with the mistrust and confusion you now face (or may face) with your current T. Hopefully your experience with the current T will remain as noncontentious as it is now and that he/she will respect and validate your concerns should you decide to raise them.

[lastyearisblank]

I just want to get this thought out of my head! Well, 2 thoughts!

It might be a really great idea to have a record of the session and I know people who do this with their classes, to have a copy of lecture. The only element that I feel like complicates it is, if the T did it back, that might almost feel like a violation. So although it is a good idea, I am a little wary of that aspect of it.

The other thing is I don't know if other people have this experience but sometimes when I read a book or go to a movie, it will seem really different the second time around because I might be in a totally different frame of mind. .I think a lot of the things that really affect us in session are the unspoken things, that come from our expectations about what should transpire, or the whole tone of the therapy. So it might be harder to put our finger on what the problem really is when that occurs. A tape might not really catch "it" (and if it's that blatent maybe it's time to switch Ts). I think that's why it's so important to trust your feelings and impressions about what is going on with a T.

Stopdog, you must have been going through a really hard time! Just thank good ness that it's over now. You don't ever have to see a bad T again and luckily you know how to spot that kind of thing!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

I just want to get this thought out of my head! Well, 2 thoughts!

It might be a really great idea to have a record of the session and I know people who do this with their classes, to have a copy of lecture. The only element that I feel like complicates it is, if the T did it back, that might almost feel like a violation. So although it is a good idea, I am a little wary of that aspect of it.

The other thing is I don't know if other people have this experience but sometimes when I read a book or go to a movie, it will seem really different the second time around because I might be in a totally different frame of mind. .I think a lot of the things that really affect us in session are the unspoken things, that come from our expectations about what should transpire, or the whole tone of the therapy. So it might be harder to put our finger on what the problem really is when that occurs. A tape might not really catch "it" (and if it's that blatent maybe it's time to switch Ts). I think that's why it's so important to trust your feelings and impressions about what is going on with a T.

I do not think my t (any of them) have wanted to record anything, so I am not really worried about that. I know some of my students record me but I have never had the urge to record my lectures.
I am not sure I have experienced what you are talking about in the second part of your comment, but my purpose is only to listen when I am upset about something so I can double check what really happened. It is really just for fact checking purposes. I doubt I would ever listen to an appointment if I was not concerned about some factual matter arising from it. It would be reassuring to me if I was upset because I thought she had said something and I could find out she really did not, and if I was correct, I would have evidence for when I confronted her should she deny it.

[lastyearisblank]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do not think my t (any of them) have wanted to record anything, so I am not really worried about that. I know some of my students record me but I have never had the urge to record my lectures.

Oh I see!!!!! Well, the only thing I meant is it might possibly make the therapist a little bit uncomfortable or having their space invaded, I think it's a little more common to tape lectures than the therapy sessions themselves.

Although, I did meet a therapist briefly (like for one session) who wanted to tape our sessions..... and I told her that having anxiety it would make me very uncomfortable to know she had them on record, and she said she couldn't work with me without taping the sessions . So I guess all of them don't feel that way.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

Although, I did meet a therapist briefly (like for one session) who wanted to tape our sessions..... and I told her that having anxiety it would make me very uncomfortable to know she had them on record, and she said she couldn't work with me without taping the sessions . So I guess all of them don't feel that way.

Wow - that would have really bothered me if a t said she couldn't work without recording. I have not had any of the ones I have checked into (many this year) say anything like that. I would have been brief with that t too.

[lastyearisblank]

I know!.. I think it was part of a certification program, so that's all good, I just couldn't do it. A supervisor person was supposed to listen to the sessions. For me that's just...... no. I don't like being videotaped either, which I know some training programs do for their trainees and their patients. Just the idea of them discussing it afterwards. I am sorry I am loling over this right now but at the time it was so dire.

[lastyearisblank]

Stopdog, do you think it would be possible to avoid taping therapy? Maybe a relationship that doesn't have any trust isn't built to last. That's just my two cents. If you tell someone in a relationship they are hurting you, you shouldn't have to bring in the objective proof!!!!

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do not think my t (any of them) have wanted to record anything, so I am not really worried about that. I know some of my students record me but I have never had the urge to record my lectures.
I am not sure I have experienced what you are talking about in the second part of your comment, but my purpose is only to listen when I am upset about something so I can double check what really happened. It is really just for fact checking purposes. I doubt I would ever listen to an appointment if I was not concerned about some factual matter arising from it. It would be reassuring to me if I was upset because I thought she had said something and I could find out she really did not, and if I was correct, I would have evidence for when I confronted her should she deny it.

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

I know!.. I think it was part of a certification program, so that's all good, I just couldn't do it. A supervisor person was supposed to listen to the sessions. For me that's just...... no. I don't like being videotaped either, which I know some training programs do for their trainees and their patients. Just the idea of them discussing it afterwards. I am sorry I am loling over this right now but at the time it was so dire.

[sunrise]

stopdog, how long have you been seeing your new therapist? I think it's not long, is it? I would wait a little while before asking about taping. Get to know each other first. Maybe you will be trustworthy and you will not find that she is saying things about your past sessions that don't ring true. So there would be no need to have those tapes. I think asking for tapes right off without giving the relationship and her a chance sets kind of an adversarial tone. Maybe that's too strong a word... I would give it a little while, or until she starts saying things from previous sessions that you don't believe are true.

You mentioned you are "going into terror" with the new T. Have you told her you are scared? Do you know why you are in terror of her?

Good luck.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by sunrise

stopdog, how long have you been seeing your new therapist? I think it's not long, is it? I would wait a little while before asking about taping. Get to know each other first. Maybe you will be trustworthy and you will not find that she is saying things about your past sessions that don't ring true. So there would be no need to have those tapes. I think asking for tapes right off without giving the relationship and her a chance sets kind of an adversarial tone. Maybe that's too strong a word... I would give it a little while, or until she starts saying things from previous sessions that you don't believe are true.

You mentioned you are "going into terror" with the new T. Have you told her you are scared? Do you know why you are in terror of her?

Good luck.

I have been seeing her for about 8 months. I think I am trustworthy- it is the t I am worried about. I have told her about being irrationally terrified of her. She says it makes sense to her. I have no idea why except it is like she will humiliate me or kill me (I know she will not actually kill me). It would be not bad for me to hear the tape and find out I am wrong. That way I would not become as angry and frustrated. I am looking at it as not adversarial, but reassuring, sort of like, well I did misunderstand - good I can go on with my life without worrying about why I am paying some stranger to be abusive or just dead flat wrong . Even if I am right, it is reassuring and I would not (I think) get as upset because I would have a way of proving it. With that proof in hand, I would be more willing to believe the t's denial was a memory lapse rather than a lie or an attempt to avoid taking responsibility for what t did, because with the proof the t could not continue to deny it occurred and blame me for being upset without cause.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think I am trustworthy- it is the t I am worried about.

Yes, I agree! That was a typo on my part--I meant your T not you. Sorry.

Your response changes how I look at this question. I thought this was a brand new T and that it was just your former T who had the problem you described about saying things about previous session that you are sure were not actually said. I didn't realize your current T was also denying saying things in past sessions. The fact that both Ts did this does give cause for doubt and I can see why you would want to listen to the tape. Because if two Ts in a row are doing this, then you begin to think, hmmmm, could it be me?? So yes, I definitely recommend taping a session to put your mind at ease. And if you find things on the tape don't match up to what T is saying now, you can listen to the tape along with her and get things sorted out.

[unaluna]

Why don't you take notes during session, or just slow things down in session? I have this bad picture in my mind of you listening to the tapes later and them just reinforcing, not alleviating, your fears and misconceptions. I'm not criticizing, but I am pointing out that you pick and choose what you respond to here on PC. A person writes 3 messages in their post, you respond to one thing, and seem to pass over, discount the goodness of the other two things. There is a lot of stuff here for you to go back and absorb, or to take to T, as Squiggle did.

The looking for "proof" is sounding a little paranoid, or just very high anxiety? Maybe that's where you are, and we need to accept that. I don't remember ever discussing medications - do you have a pdoc? You know I am saying this with great affection for you.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Yes, I agree! That was a typo on my part--I meant your T not you. Sorry.

Your response changes how I look at this question. I thought this was a brand new T and that it was just your former T who had the problem you described about saying things about previous session that you are sure were not actually said. I didn't realize your current T was also denying saying things in past sessions. The fact that both Ts did this does give cause for doubt and I can see why you would want to listen to the tape. Because if two Ts in a row are doing this, then you begin to think, hmmmm, could it be me?? So yes, I definitely recommend taping a session to put your mind at ease. And if you find things on the tape don't match up to what T is saying now, you can listen to the tape along with her and get things sorted out.

It has not happened with the second one yet. Just the other one. But yes, what you describe is the idea. It would provide a way to work things out rather than the constant "You are wrong " "no you are wrong" that we had going on.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by hankster

Why don't you take notes during session, or just slow things down in session? I have this bad picture in my mind of you listening to the tapes later and them just reinforcing, not alleviating, your fears and misconceptions. I'm not criticizing, but I am pointing out that you pick and choose what you respond to here on PC. A person writes 3 messages in their post, you respond to one thing, and seem to pass over, discount the goodness of the other two things. There is a lot of stuff here for you to go back and absorb, or to take to T, as Squiggle did.

The looking for "proof" is sounding a little paranoid, or just very high anxiety? Maybe that's where you are, and we need to accept that. I don't remember ever discussing medications - do you have a pdoc? You know I am saying this with great affection for you.

I need evidence because the t I just quit with would never acknowledge she was wrong or mistaken. Often it was like we had been in two different universes. I would ask what she had meant about x and she would respond she never said x. Or she would insist I had said something I knew I would never have said. With a tape of it, we would know. Listening to the tape would either help me see she did not say whatever was upsetting me or would make it so she could not act like I was making something up. Me writing stuff down would not help prove or convince the t what occurred at the appointment (the info that she was denying) ever happened. I know this because I do take notes after each appointment and it did not help the t remember or believe me.
I do not take meds. I do not go to mds. I do not have this problem with anyone but the t. I only respond to what I think needs a response.

I know some people do record their appointments. I just wondered if it helped them or why they did it.

[elliemay]

I don't know if the tapes would help or not. One thing I feel pretty safe saying is that if you go into therapy looking for the therapist to make a mistake, or to say something that needs a response, then you are going to find it -regardless of the intent or lack of intent behind it.

It must be very very hard to accept help from someone when you are so vigilant about them being wrong.

There has certainly been times when my therapist has said something that he denied saying, or forgot about.

Of course, there are also times when he said one thing, and I heard another.

I don't know if this is the case for you, but my therapy was way more about what I heard and remembered versus what my therapist said or didn't say.

It's clear you've had a very very bad experience with one therapist and you're carrying that betrayal with you. Completely understandable don't you think?

But I guess I would have to ask myself, how beneficial is it to me to hold this therapist accountable for a bad lesson I learned from another.

Don't know.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by elliemay

I don't know if the tapes would help or not. One thing I feel pretty safe saying is that if you go into therapy looking for the therapist to make a mistake, or to say something that needs a response, then you are going to find it -regardless of the intent or lack of intent behind it.

It must be very very hard to accept help from someone when you are so vigilant about them being wrong.

There has certainly been times when my therapist has said something that he denied saying, or forgot about.

Of course, there are also times when he said one thing, and I heard another.

I don't know if this is the case for you, but my therapy was way more about what I heard and remembered versus what my therapist said or didn't say.

It's clear you've had a very very bad experience with one therapist and you're carrying that betrayal with you. Completely understandable don't you think?

But I guess I would have to ask myself, how beneficial is it to me to hold this therapist accountable for a bad lesson I learned from another.

Don't know.

I did not go in looking for the t to make mistakes, it just happened that t did and then it became a problem between us. If she would have simply admitted she could have been mistaken ever, or maybe even apologized, then I would not have needed to become so vigilant. The point of taping is to separate out when they said something they claim to not remember versus when I hear it wrong. What I heard and remembered was almost always in conflict with what the t heard and remembered. It is hard to discuss something if one of the pair is denying it ever occurred. It became a huge problem in the therapy. If the newer one and I do not have these troubles, then I don't see how having the tapes cause harm. I simply never have to use them.

If you have seen this new T now for 8 months and this probably has not been an issue, why are you making it an issue? At some point you are going to have to stop "expecting" this new T to hurt you. Eight months is a pretty good length of time to start letting go of what the old T did to you and stop holding it over the new T's head. And by letting go, I don't mean you have to forget, but it is kind of like having a new significant other and not trusting the new relationship because of something that happened in the past with an old relationship. That's not fair to the new relationship/T. And it's not fair to yourself really. Do you work with your new T on exploring the lack of trust and the hurt that developed about therapy because of your past experience? I hope so. It will be hard to move forward in your therapy while you are still so stuck in the old experience. That really needs to be resolved in your mind somehow. I'm not sure taping with the expectation that you will have to prove your new T wrong, with the expectation that your T will inevitably hurt you, is a particularly healthy move.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

If you have seen this new T now for 8 months and this probably has not been an issue, why are you making it an issue? At some point you are going to have to stop "expecting" this new T to hurt you. Eight months is a pretty good length of time to start letting go of what the old T did to you and stop holding it over the new T's head. And by letting go, I don't mean you have to forget, but it is kind of like having a new significant other and not trusting the new relationship because of something that happened in the past with an old relationship. That's not fair to the new relationship/T. And it's not fair to yourself really. Do you work with your new T on exploring the lack of trust and the hurt that developed about therapy because of your past experience? I hope so. It will be hard to move forward in your therapy while you are still so stuck in the old experience. That really needs to be resolved in your mind somehow. I'm not sure taping with the expectation that you will have to prove your new T wrong, with the expectation that your T will inevitably hurt you, is a particularly healthy move.

I only ended with the other t two weeks ago. And I don't think she hurt me as much as really frustrated me. The one I still have is not really new. The one I just quit was about a year and the one still going on is 8 months about. So they were not really that different in time especially. I kept meaning to pick one and never got around to it. I guess now I did choose. The reason I bring it up now is because I am just now starting to be as terrified of the second one as I was of the first. I am trying to be more proactive this time. The first one and I were in conflict from the start and I was terrified from the start. For some reason with the second one I was not. And by this I mean even before meeting them I was in high anxiety over the first but not as much the second.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I am trying to be more proactive this time.

Here's an idea for being proactive: talk to your T about it. Tell her that you were seeing another T and what happened. Tell her that you've been so affected by this experience that you want to tape your sessions. Actually talk about it with her, see how she responds to you.

Anne

[learning1]

I think it wouldn't hurt to ask the t if she'd mind being taped. If you explained why the way you explained it here, maybe she'd understand and want to do it to help you worry less.

I don't know if what somebody posted, saying that listening to the recordings could make you anxious, could be true, but you could work that out if it happened.

I've read on here about people recording their sessions because they tend to have trouble remembering them, so it's not that unusual. A lot of people are really uncomfortable being recorded, but other people aren't. It doesn't usually bother me. I don't know why. So I think it doesn't hurt to find out how your t feels about it.

I wonder if it would make your t more anxious because you're a lawyer, and you would have evidence if they make a mistake. If your t is nervous about it, you could offer to leave the recordings with her and only go back and check them together during sessions.

It is unusual to be so focused on getting the facts right that you need to record something. But maybe it would help and it doesn't hurt to ask.

[stopdog]

Sorry, I seem to have been unclear. The t does not have a problem with it and did not press to get a detailed explanation as to why I wanted it. And if she did have a problem, I would not have a problem doing it anyway. I don't even think the first one would have objected really. I just wondered if it was very common and if it helped. I did not realize it was so unusual to be focused on getting the facts right between the client and the t.

It is completely bizarre to me that you would take your time, money, and energy in order to go to therapy and consistently refuse to talk honestly and openly with your various T's. I'd like to see the "evidence" that this approach is successful, either in theory or in your own life.

It's only slightly less bizarre to me that I read and actually occasionally attempt to respond to your posts. Because I consistently feel like beating my head against a wall afterwards. Perhaps I have learned my lesson now.

Anne