When should my therapist be angry with me?

I have not the slightest doubt about her sincerity.
But sometimes she does seem rather sure that hers is the only way!

Hmmm. Sometimes ANGER = LOVE. This requires further thought.[/QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but what I have learned from my therapy is that anger within a therapists office is either countertransference or caring. And in the case of countertransference, you can't take it personally.

If you don't care, why bother getting angry, no one really wants to be angry, in my opinion.

i am a therapist because i want to help my clients. if i feel that i am not helping my clients, then i no longer want their money. [/QUOTE]

It's refreshing to read this, but I do think it is important to acknowledge that there are therapists out there that do not share your opinion. We should all be watching our own progress as well and make sure we have an invested t.

EDIT: why when I quote someone does it not look the same as everyone else ie. it doesn't show that Im quoting? :s

CantExplain, do you have children? Can you imagine having a teenage son, for example, who is messing with drugs? Every time he pulls himself up out of it you will be so happy for him; every time he puts himself in the way of falling into it again (hanging out with bad company, or in places where the opportunity presents), you will feel the danger he risks, and it will cause fear in you for his safety and well being, and you may certainly get angry at his taking the risks; the anger is only the top emotion, the fear for his safety, and yes, love for him, are the ones that are beneath it.

Wow. A lot of stuff going on here. Stopdog, you sound like you're describing a prostitute, and I think that's what Dr Muffin picked up on. That's not an uncommon picture of the situation in T, IME, but I think a less than useful or workable or ideal one.

I think part of what is happening with Kaliope's dueling T and Pdoc, and with CantExplain, is the T's frustration that the client doesn't seem to value the bond the T thought was there, but apparently isn't as strong as the T thought it was. Like the time in the early 80's I told T I got married over the weekend. She was livid! I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Now of course I realize there was a lot more "wrong" (i.e., disconnected, unaware, in denial) with ME, maybe not so much to DO such a thing, but to not be able to understand why she would be angry with me.

This bond thing is apparently pretty important to the therapist, they believe that's the avenue of change. So they are pretty protective or sensitive about it. Sign me, dismissively attached to mother, securely attached to T?

Careful what you're editing out when you quote.

You have to copy both brackets at the beginning and the ending of the quote. What you did was miss the first brackets.

As a social worker I keep enough distance from the client's outcome so that I don't start to own their outcome, which doesn't belong to me at all. If the helping professional becomes too invested in the outcome then they can get angry. This stance, or rather it is really a boundary, is really good for the mental health of the helping professional!

The client needs space for empowerment. If I'm owning their outcome, and violating their boundaries, it is going to affect their empowerment which is a really big deal IMO.

Of course I want the client to get healthy but I have to let them stumble around to get there if this is what happens - patience........

And of course the client might be right!

Whenever I have gotten angry I see it as something that I really need to work on.

I agree.

I don't know what happened here, but maybe the therapist wasn't angry with the client, at all. The response could have been perceived as anger but may have been frustration, disappointment, concern for the safety, or well being, of the client, or may have been their own?

I believe an integral part of this is in how one interprets anger.

Recently, my T and I had a rupture. We made an agreement early in therapy I would not run, but would work hard to stay and work through the really tough stuff. After a particularly difficult week, I reached out to him through his voicemail and email. Days passed. T wasn't there.

The next week I sent him an email saying I was having thoughts of leaving therapy, and wanted to discuss. At the start of our next session, he shared he was irritated with me. I "heard" what he said....he was irritated, agitated... but it "felt" like anger to me. It felt unsafe. I left feeling worse than when I arrived. I didn't return.

A few weeks later, at the advice of some here on PC, I returned to process the session with him. It was one of the MOST healing moments ever in my therapy. T wasn't irritated, or agitated, with ME...he was irritated with himself and his inability to help because he was out of town, his work schedule, etc....He was concerned. disappointed. frustrated and more.

T acknowledged his part (which he was unaware until we had a chance to discuss ) and we both learned, and grew, from the experience.

I'm sorry this is a very condensed version, but I hope through my example, the OP (and you) can see there are MANY explanations on why a T might be "angry". Some may be incredibly healing, others less so.

that is definitely a conversation worth having with her...whether she's angry or not. rigidity tends to breed rebellion, i've learned!

times when ive seen therapists get angry at clients (and times when i have felt myself becoming angry) have been times when the therapist is (or thinks he/she is) working harder on the client's issues than the client is. and that is a problem in and of itself....that's the therapist's issue to explore.

in my case when i feel myself getting angry, i really wonder why that is. and every time, its been that i am feeling WAY too invested in "saving" someone, rather than helping them find their own way. i dont have much of a savior complex so it doesnt happen very often....but certain clients can trigger that in me (specifically when i worked with children)

We are not supposed to take this into consideration while in therapy. Ts are supposed to be paid professionals, and as professionals being paid out of our pockets, their emotions should be held in check. We have the right to get angry at them if it comes to that, but they are not supposed to reciprocate the anger toward us. The day Ts begin to get angry at us we should then start to bill them for our services...

My t has gotten angry a couple times. Its ok with me. She has feelings too. It makes me feel safer and better when she expresses herself and i know shes being truthful, not hiding anything from me. I like her honesty.

My T got irritated with me once and she explained that my behavior caused it and she apologized but she has never explained WHY my behavior would bother her. I thought i my actions were relatively minor. It's a rupture in my mind that still hasn't been repaired. I don't think about it much but it's still an issue that needs resolution and I've told her that in the past. But we haven't yet taken time to sort through it.

I also believe T's should never get angry. They're supposed to be in touch with their own ***** and not let it flow over on us. They're there to help us with our emotions and if we have to face their anger, it then becomes an unsafe place for us.

I also LOVE an honest reaction from a therapist. I am then able to know where I stand and I think they're dealing with me on a "real" basis. And we can go from there...

I get creeped out when I think they're kind of sanitizing things for me..or speaking in a fake "calm" and "calming" voice and just generally treating me like i am unable to deal....as if I am fragile.

I would rather hear the whole truth and have a meltdown if I cannot handle it, than have them "handle" me. Of course, I do have the occasional melt-down.

I think each person has different needs when it comes to the emotional reactions of their T. Some people need a blank slate that doesn't reflect anything back at them and others need honest emotional responses.

For me, I need my T to show honest, appropriate emotional responses, because I need to see that having an emotional response and displaying that response is okay. I appreciate that she isn't a blank slate and can give me emotional feedback. In my family of origin, expressing anything other than happy emotions was completely unacceptable, so it's helpful for me to see someone model appropriate expression. Plus, it makes my T easier to connect with and trust when I feel that she's being honest with me.

T's are human, and should be expected to feel all kinds of emotions, including anger. I think it's more important how those emotions are displayed towards a client. A T that rants and raves and has an extreme expression of anger is probably not being at all appropriate or helpful to their client. A T that becomes angry for some reason and is able to discuss that anger with the client in a helpful way would be an appropriate response.

Personally, I would actually find it helpful if my T did become angry with me and then expressed it and worked through it with me. The only real models I have for anger in a relationship are violence or silence, and sometimes I think it would be so helpful to have someone be angry at me and talk with me about it in a calm, rational, non-violent manner! Of course, I tend to go out of my way to prevent people from being angry with me, and my T doesn't seem like the type to get angry, so I doubt such a situation would ever happen.

As for when a T SHOULD be angry with a client...well, I would think that would depend on the personality of both the T and the client. Everyone has different things that trigger anger in them. I would think that breaking rules or promises would frustrate some and anger others. I imagine most T's would be upset at being lied to, but it's all about context too. And, yes, I'd expect a T would be angry if their client harmed themself or others, but I also expect that anger would stem from caring about the client and wanting them to be safe.

I don't disagree with you. The next line of my post (which was not included in the edited version of your post) said I AGREE if they can't check their feelings at the door and provide HEALTHY ways of helping a client, then they need supervision or to consider a referral.

Are we talking about the regular old anger that all of us feel when we don't get what we want? Or is this a more complicated anger, based on not being able to help a patient (as some other people mentioned)? This is a really important distinction IMO. I am ok with having people angry at me, but not getting angry over every little thing when it doesn't fit their idea of how reality should conform to their wishes. Yes of course, we all feel irritation or frustration when people don't follow our advice. But part of the learning experience for me of therapy is being around someone with the emotional maturity to look at their interactions objectively and I feel like it kind of detracts from the lesson if a therapist shows a lot of anger over relatively petty things.

So Ts are protective and jealous. I can believe that. But when I asked her, my T was dismissive of the idea that she might be jealous.

I don't know what "sign me" means. My mother was unsatisfactory and I regard T as my mother now. I take her flowers on Mother's Day.

Draft of what I want to say to my therapist:
I want to talk to you about being angry with me.
I believe that you feel protective of me and of our relationship, and that your anger comes from love. I want you to keep on being angry with me. But recently I have found it a little difficult to take.
We did a lot of good stuff last session, but your anger is what I remember.
If I were harming myself physically, I would want you to be angry. But what I heard was that some of my behaviour is equivalent to cutting myself. I don’t see that.
You are usually willing to be wrong, but not always. On some issues you have very firm opinions and get angry with me when I disagree. I usually take your advice but sometimes not, and I don’t think anger is the appropriate response.
Sometimes I make up my mind before I’ve consulted properly with you. That makes you really angry. But it cuts both ways. You have made up your mind without consulting properly with me.

Oh CE, I hope you share this with your T.

I agree with you. Your T, WHATEVER she is feeling, is coming from a place of caring and concern. That is HUGE. She has YOUR best interest at heart.

About the anger, I would encourage you to talk to T and share your experience and ask her to share hers. You many have a better understanding of the feelings behind her statements.

If a child is about to place their hand on a hot stove and get burned, and an adult yells, 'STOP"! It doesn't mean the adult is angry. It may "feel" like anger because the adult wants to get the child's immediate attention, but it MAY not be anger.

I hope you are both able to gain some additional insight in your next session together. Good luck!

Before you communicate these thoughts to your T, do you think she will admit that she got angry, or has she admitted being in a state of anger before? I ask since I'm afraid of the possibility of your T not admitting of ever being angry at you.

I meant protective in the sense of, as a workman is protective of his tools, as the bond is a tool of psychotherapy. I didn't say "jealous", altho it's interesting that you took that direction. Maybe your wife is jealous and to keep peace in the family, you chose the wife's recommendation rather than T's? Plus bringing T flowers, whatever the rationale - I think there's trouble in River City... that's why T is dismissing HER jealousy. Your wife's jealousy of T's ability to "make" you change makes as much sense as if she were jealous of your dentist's ability to whiten your teeth.

Does this sound like what is going on? Are you caught in the middle of this catfight? If so, I think you are putting yourself there, although I can see how and why it's happening. You can't exactly tell your wife to back off, unless you like sleeping on the couch? Just wondering if this is what is going on.

That's easy. If she says, "I was never angry with you", I can reply, "Well that's what I heard."

And I've made a list of eight things I think she was angry about. If she wasn't angry, she can tell me how she DID feel about those things.

[quote=hankster;2077262]Your wife's jealousy of T's ability to "make" you change makes as much sense as if she were jealous of your dentist's ability to whiten your teeth.[quote]

Where does this "wife's jealousy" motif come from?
I certainly didn't mean that!

I took my wife's advice in this instance because hers made better sense.
My wife often gives me very BAD advice, such as, "Don't tell T about that because you'll make her angry."

Dude, you're losing me. I have no idea what this means, even after I Googled it.