Yesterday, I returned to T for the first time since early January and the rupture.

I tried posting about my experience last night,but it was just too much. The feelings are too BIG.

I am a CSA survivor. One thing T said yesterday is that I allow myself to be too vulnerable in therapy. He asked me to think of ways I can not be SO vulnerable, to get SO hurt when things go wrong.

My answer, "not to trust people , especially adult authority figures". He disagreed. I asked HIM to tell me of ways I can do therapy and not make myself so vulnerable to the process, he couldn't think of any.

He apologized for his part. ( Knowing former MT lied to me, knowing how much his (former MT) sudden departure hurt me at the time given my first T experience, knowing I asked MT for the opportunity to process, knowing MT told me he had to leave suddenly and was no longer there or in private practice with ANY clients, knowing he never left and selectively chose clients to continue to see on a part time basis, knowing HE (T) knew this all along and never told me) I forgave him. I just don't know if I can trust him. AGAIN.

So. Here we are.

I don't trust myself. I don't trust my T. I don't even begin to know where to start picking up the pieces?

I am a mess.

How can I do therapy and, according to T, not allow myself to be too vulnerable?

Lost, so you know and don't feel ignored. I have read this thread, but really need to calm down before I can really respond. I had not made the connection that you were a CSA survivor on top of the issue of your T lying to you and then basically blaming you. SO SOSOSOSO ANGRY on your behalf right now.

So, I'm thinking. and trying to calm down. I imagine that others on the board are having the same response, and we'll be able to respond to you more calmly soon. 'Cause right now, all I got is -- WHAT a jerk! Find a new T. And that is not necessarily helpful or what you want to hear.

[pbutton]

I could tell you the ways I keep myself from being vulnerable, but they're a big reason why I'm in therapy to begin with. So I have a hunch that wouldn't be helpful at all.

I think your T may be trying to get at the stuff my T tells me about identifying emotions and handling them without getting overwhelmed. I have no idea how to do this though. I guess it's somehow possible.

[elliemay]

I'm struck by the words "too vulnerable". I think what he likely meant was "too vulnerable to hurt" not too vulnerable to the emotions and happening in therapy.

I think what he's talking about here is resillience - not withdrawing. If that's the case then he is correct. You both need to think of ways to contain and control the feelings that arise.

It's a task that both of you have to undertake together. For instance, can you think of something that your therapist can do to help sum up or close out a session that would help you?

Can you develop a plan to deal with hurt when you feel overwhelmed by it?

This is clearly not your fault, and I hope you can see it that way. Unfortunately, I think developing the coping skills to deal with things is something that has to happen in therapy.

This whole process doesn't have to be devasting, but it certainly can be. Learning how to deal with that devastion can be one the best things that comes out of therapy actually.

I would definitely try to talk to your therapist about exactly what he meant by the phrase "too vulnerable". I'm thinking he;s trying to help protect you here.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Lost, so you know and don't feel ignored. I have read this thread, but really need to calm down before I can really respond. I had not made the connection that you were a CSA survivor on top of the issue of your T lying to you and then basically blaming you. SO SOSOSOSO ANGRY on your behalf right now.

So, I'm thinking. and trying to calm down. I imagine that others on the board are having the same response, and we'll be able to respond to you more calmly soon. 'Cause right now, all I got is -- WHAT a jerk! Find a new T. And that is not necessarily helpful or what you want to hear.

maybe I am too cranky today, & shouldn't be posting on here, but it sounds like yr T wants you to DIY on "coping strategies". FCOL, grrrrr

maybe if you use the T-speak phrase "coping strategies" yr T will clue in that there was training on this back in T school, and will help you to identify some for yourself. Otherwise... well, your decision.

Thank you. I want to respond to each of you but need some time. Ellie, I think my T was trying to convey a similar thought. I was struggling to find words to tell him how it feels his decision last year left me powerless instead of protected. He did say he was trying to protect me from further damage. I DO forgive him. I just don't know how to move foward from this. First it was the shared email with staff, then his irritation with me last year which was about him yet projected on me. T doesn't feel safe.

[SallyBrown]

I want to echo MKAC. This post is in my thoughts, but I haven't put together how to respond without saying "Your T sounds like a lazy-***** coward."

I promise I will come up with something more constructive. Hang in there!

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

maybe I am too cranky today, & shouldn't be posting on here, but it sounds like yr T wants you to DIY on "coping strategies". FCOL, grrrrr

maybe if you use the T-speak phrase "coping strategies" yr T will clue in that there was training on this back in T school, and will help you to identify some for yourself. Otherwise... well, your decision.

In the end, they always end up being DIY coping strategies. I think that's just the reality of the situation. Your therapist isn't always going to be there, so, yeah, there has to be some pretty intense work on our parts.

Ideally, the therapist and the client would work together to come up with some stuff, but it's us that has to do them to make our lives better.

I've been there and this is tough stuff to be sure, but no one but us can make these strategies work.

Wow, that sounds like a pretty major collusion between your T and the former T. And then he's saying you need to be less hurt by things like this? And then he tells you to trust him again?

Um, no. I know that when bad things happen which shake our very core, it can be difficult to trust our instincts. I know we hear from our Ts that we learnt our 'coping strategies' in our pasts, and that they were adaptive back then but are unhelpful now. But it sounds like both your hurt and your reluctance to trust him again are perfectly adaptive human responses. I don't see you as being the one who has to change here.

Thinking of you, ((lost in termination))

Originally Posted by elliemay

In the end, they always end up being DIY coping strategies. I think that's just the reality of the situation. Your therapist isn't always going to be there, so, yeah, there has to be some pretty intense work on our parts.

Ideally, the therapist and the client would work together to come up with some stuff, but it's us that has to do them to make our lives better.

I've been there and this is tough stuff to be sure, but no one but us can make these strategies work.

I work VERY hard in therapy, T comments often on how hard I work in therapy to do the right thing, to not bump against boundaries, to be a good client, to be honest, vulnerable and open to the process. T often comments on how strong I am and how well adjusted I appear even in those moments I am falling apart.

Right now, I need to feel safe again. I am trying to discern if "safe" is with or without my T.

[sittingatwatersedge]

>> In the end, they always end up being DIY coping strategies. I think that's just the reality of the situation.
I didn't mean that, I meant that the T seemed to be asking LostinTermination to DIY, figure out her own strategies - I don't think that is the way it's supposed to go. I for one wouldn't know where to start, that's one reason I'm in therapy!

Ideally, the therapist and the client would work together to come up with some stuff, but it's us that has to do them to make our lives better.
yes but this isn't DIY, it's together.

I've been there and this is tough stuff to be sure, but no one but us can make these strategies work.
Agreed. But first they have to be identified!

[SallyBrown]

Well, ok, so, before I say anything else, I do think it's worth it to go back to T and try to work this out. I don't think this is an irreparable. And I do think that you have in the past had some really amazing connecting moments with this T, and it's not impossible that there's a way to talk through this that will help things get back on track. I have a T whose greatest weakness is occasionally resorting to becoming defensive at inappropriate times. Your T seems to do something like this but it really needs to STOP.

I am a CSA survivor. One thing T said yesterday is that I allow myself to be too vulnerable in therapy.

What. The f***. Is that.

I am trying to think of ways to make what he said ok but it's really not. Even if he meant "not so vulnerable to hurt when he is not meaning to hurt you", that's still a really inappropriate question. Therapy is where you are SUPPOSED to be vulnerable, and SUPPOSED to show your genuine feelings, even when they are overblown. Even when you KNOW they are overblown. And he is supposed to take it, tolerate it, and help you find a way through it. There IS no "too vulnerable".

I could see maybe if it seemed like you were making no progress in finding ways to tolerate some of your really strong emotions, he might say that this is a repeating pattern that is making you unhappy and you (BOTH) need to find a way out of it. And yes, ultimately, you will be the one to arrive at the answer that works for you, because he can't know what will be best for you, and there will continue to be misunderstandings that you will have to find a way to endure at least partly on your own. But it's a journey you take together... not something where he says, "Could you try to be less vulnerable?" and you say, "I don't really know how to do that, what do you think?" and he says "I dunno."

He apologized for his part. ( Knowing former MT lied to me, knowing how much his (former MT) sudden departure hurt me at the time given my first T experience, knowing I asked MT for the opportunity to process, knowing MT told me he had to leave suddenly and was no longer there or in private practice with ANY clients, knowing he never left and selectively chose clients to continue to see on a part time basis, knowing HE (T) knew this all along and never told me) I forgave him. I just don't know if I can trust him. AGAIN.

I somehow missed this thread when you posted it but I went back and read it. That is some real dishonesty on his part. And his explanation makes NO SENSE. It's just defensive. I mean, let's say for a moment that he didn't tell you about MT at the time because he felt uncomfortable talking about a colleague, especially one whose approach he disagreed with. Well, what made him suddenly so comfortable with it now? And what on EARTH would make him think it was ok to suddenly drop that bomb on you and have you be cool with it? Maybe if he had said, "I'm sorry I didn't tell you this at the time, it was very complicated and uncomfortable, but here is what happened..." Something. Anything that acknowledged you at all.

And something about how he can't do anything about your running into someone you know at the office? Uh, yes he can. He can reschedule you. So what if he has a waiting list, you are his patient NOW, why do you need to go on a waiting list? Here is what my T would do: find another patient who sees him at the same frequency who would be willing to switch times, and switch us. It's not that hard.

And letting you terminate that first time. I'm glad he admitted he made a mistake, but you need someone who is not going to let you run away in the first place. Yes, you know that you need to run TOWARD, not away, but you need someone who will HELP you with that. And the e-mail thing, which I don't think I even need to touch.

When I first came to PC, it served two purposes. First, like you, I saw that there were more nurturing Ts out there, and if I wanted to try a new style, I could find someone closer to what I felt I needed (my T was being distant and rather cold at the time). Second, I also realized how inherently talented my T really is... I saw the mistakes other people's Ts were making, and knew that my T would have just KNOWN better. It helped the rupture get repaired because I felt that if I could just get him to alter his style a little bit to make therapy more like what I needed, it could really work.

So, deciding about this T will be a similar balancing act. Are the good times good enough to endure the repair process? Do you think he "gets it"?

Ugh, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. "Too vulnerable." WTF.

[unaluna]

This is kind of abstract, and I'm a little confused. A month or so ago I read all the original posts, so I THINK I understand why MT stopped seeing you, or decreased his practice, or whatever he did? For one thing, I think he was WAY out of line in his original actions. But come to the end, I don't think current T can legally (or really wants to) speak to MT's specific issues, and that's what it sounds like you are asking for. If that's what you are basing your willingness to trust a T on, then yeah, I get what you're saying about not being able to tell about what's real and what's not real. Only I wouldn't say "real", I would say, as 3rdTime once explained to me here, the difference between concept and ... I forget the other word. The point is, your current T yes has a responsibility to help you with your feelings about MT, but it was never his responsibility to tell you exactly what MT was doing with his practice. He is not there to inform you, especially if it's a problematic situation for MT. Why would he want to "borrow" MT's problems, or in any way make them his own? So T dealt with you at the level of information you had. I think that is all he could do, ethically.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by hankster

This is kind of abstract, and I'm a little confused. A month or so ago I read all the original posts, so I THINK I understand why MT stopped seeing you, or decreased his practice, or whatever he did? For one thing, I think he was WAY out of line in his original actions. But come to the end, I don't think current T can legally (or really wants to) speak to MT's specific issues, and that's what it sounds like you are asking for. If that's what you are basing your willingness to trust a T on, then yeah, I get what you're saying about not being able to tell about what's real and what's not real. Only I wouldn't say "real", I would say, as 3rdTime once explained to me here, the difference between concept and ... I forget the other word. The point is, your current T yes has a responsibility to help you with your feelings about MT, but it was never his responsibility to tell you exactly what MT was doing with his practice. He is not there to inform you, especially if it's a problematic situation for MT. Why would he want to "borrow" MT's problems, or in any way make them his own? So T dealt with you at the level of information you had. I think that is all he could do, ethically.

I guess the problem I see is that if he did not feel he could make a satisfactory disclosure, he should have not disclosed the part about MT not leaving private practice either. It's the lack of consistency that makes the insensitivity less forgivable IMO.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Lost, so you know and don't feel ignored. I have read this thread, but really need to calm down before I can really respond. I had not made the connection that you were a CSA survivor on top of the issue of your T lying to you and then basically blaming you. SO SOSOSOSO ANGRY on your behalf right now.

So, I'm thinking. and trying to calm down. I imagine that others on the board are having the same response, and we'll be able to respond to you more calmly soon. 'Cause right now, all I got is -- WHAT a jerk! Find a new T. And that is not necessarily helpful or what you want to hear.

Thank you MKAC.

I don't think I have done a good job of writing it all on paper. T didn't lie to me, he deceived me. He "knew" the story I was told by my MT was untrue. He knew I had sent an email to MT and asked for the opportunity to process the sudden departure ( I did this, in part, because I did NOT have the opportunity to process with Terminating T). He knew I needed closure. I understand the reasons he gave me for not sharing the "truth" back then, he wanted to protect me from further harm. I get it. Basically, he didn't lie to me. He didn't tell me the "whole" truth because I didn't know to ask different questions.

The whole ordeal left me feeling powerless. If T#1 wants to terminate without cause, he can. If MT wants to lie and then send me an email saying he can't process because he left suddenly (when he didn't), he CAN. Isn't there ANY responsibility on the part of the T? Any?

@pbutton - thanks!

@sawe- your post actually made me smile. So, thanks. I NEEDED that!

@SallyBrown- thank you for your posts. You have given me alot to think about. I want to comment on your longer post, it will just take me some time.

@Improving- thanks! Collusion is a great word to describe how it felt.

Originally Posted by lost in termination

Thank you MKAC.

I don't think I have done a good job of writing it all on paper. T didn't lie to me, he deceived me.

I see this as the same as lying. Lies of omission are still lies. But maybe that's me and my issues. Your T is just acting like an ***** in trying to turn this around on you. I see his reasoning, but he KNEW that honesty and trusting were issues for you. He KNEW that previous incident was painful for you. All he had to do was say, "hey, here's the actual situation and it really sucks. Your anger and pain are totally understandable. Let's talk about what a jerk MT is and how you didn't deserve to be treated this way."

Ultimately you have to decide what is best for you. I know myself well enough that I could not deal with this situation and I would walk away. That's why I kept waiting to reply. Not quite sure why I'm so mad on your behalf. OHH, is this what you guys are talking about when you say you're triggered?? 'Cause I am totally totally irate and this didn't even happen to me!

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

>> In the end, they always end up being DIY coping strategies. I think that's just the reality of the situation.
I didn't mean that, I meant that the T seemed to be asking LostinTermination to DIY, figure out her own strategies - I don't think that is the way it's supposed to go. I for one wouldn't know where to start, that's one reason I'm in therapy!

Ideally, the therapist and the client would work together to come up with some stuff, but it's us that has to do them to make our lives better.
yes but this isn't DIY, it's together.

I've been there and this is tough stuff to be sure, but no one but us can make these strategies work.
Agreed. But first they have to be identified!

I agree SAWE. It IS why I am in therapy. I can do-it-myself, I have done it my whole life....the key is to find "healthy" coping strategies instead of "unhealthy" ones.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by lost in termination

Isn't there ANY responsibility on the part of the T? Any?

This isn't about T's responsibility. You wanted these T's to do something and they said no. You couldn't make them say yes. When you say, why isn't there any responsibility on their part, it makes me wonder, who shirked their their responsibility and allowed you to suffer CSA? Who would you want to confront IRL if you could and ask THEM wth happened, that they left you unprotected?

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I see this as the same as lying. Lies of omission are still lies. But maybe that's me and my issues. Your T is just acting like an ***** in trying to turn this around on you. I see his reasoning, but he KNEW that honesty and trusting were issues for you. He KNEW that previous incident was painful for you. All he had to do was say, "hey, here's the actual situation and it really sucks. Your anger and pain are totally understandable. Let's talk about what a jerk MT is and how you didn't deserve to be treated this way."

Ultimately you have to decide what is best for you. I know myself well enough that I could not deal with this situation and I would walk away. That's why I kept waiting to reply. Not quite sure why I'm so mad on your behalf. OHH, is this what you guys are talking about when you say you're triggered?? 'Cause I am totally totally irate and this didn't even happen to me!

Yes, it does still feel like a lie. I just wanted to make the distinction that he didn't blatantly lie to me like my MT did. Absolutely, he knows honesty and trust are HUGE, HUGE issues for me.

Last fall, I sent T an email. In it I wrote, one thing I cherished about our therapy relationship was it was built on the foundation of truth and mutual respect. ( We had just survived a rupture where T admitted his part and I learned I could trust myself again) I said, not many of my relationships in RL, were built like that and it was...nice. In early January, it felt my relationship with T was built on sand and I lost my footing.

Thanks for being angry for me MKAC. I have been angry. I told T yesterday I was angry . Now, I feel confused.

Originally Posted by hankster

This isn't about T's responsibility. You wanted these T's to do something and they said no. You couldn't make them say yes. When you say, why isn't there any responsibility on their part, it makes me wonder, who shirked their their responsibility and allowed you to suffer CSA? Who would you want to confront IRL if you could and ask THEM wth happened, that they left you unprotected?

Ok, Hankster. I understood in therapy there is a responsibility on the part of the T to do what's in the patients' best interest BEFORE their own. I was asking how do they know what is in my best interest? Isn't there a responsibility, on their part, to ask?

I DID ask my MT to process. He didn't say NO, he lied. I didn't ask anything of my T.

[unaluna]

I don't think any T is going to put our self-interest before his. That's saying he would harm himself for us.

I think you're getting somewhere now - you were kind of stuck in a logic loop you couldn't get out of? keep going. but you haven't really answered my post? I don't mean to annoy, I am just trying to find a way out of the pain.

Originally Posted by hankster

This is kind of abstract, and I'm a little confused. A month or so ago I read all the original posts, so I THINK I understand why MT stopped seeing you, or decreased his practice, or whatever he did? For one thing, I think he was WAY out of line in his original actions. But come to the end, I don't think current T can legally (or really wants to) speak to MT's specific issues, and that's what it sounds like you are asking for. If that's what you are basing your willingness to trust a T on, then yeah, I get what you're saying about not being able to tell about what's real and what's not real. Only I wouldn't say "real", I would say, as 3rdTime once explained to me here, the difference between concept and ... I forget the other word. The point is, your current T yes has a responsibility to help you with your feelings about MT, but it was never his responsibility to tell you exactly what MT was doing with his practice. He is not there to inform you, especially if it's a problematic situation for MT. Why would he want to "borrow" MT's problems, or in any way make them his own? So T dealt with you at the level of information you had. I think that is all he could do, ethically.

Thanks Hankster for your reply.

For a very abbreviated clarification, my H and I had been seeing MT for a long,long time. We were scheduled to go to appointment one day and I happened to email him that day to confirm. I received an automated reply stating he was no longer in private practice. I sent an email and he responded. The first time, he responded defensively saying he had sent us several emails notifying us of his departure. When I emailed again writing that was untrue. He wrote back and apologized saying he had looked back in his records and had never sent. In the first email, I asked for the opportunity to process and he replied, with his apology, that he was unable to meet because he had to leave suddenly to take another position in another town. I learned he never left completely....he reduced his client load.

There are NO easy answers here, I agree. Had he shared the truth with me it would have hurt, also. No doubt.

I struggle with T's part in all of it.

A few months after MT's departure, T and I ruptured. He had shared a personal email I sent him with a staff member. In processing the rupture, T and I talked about TRUST. How difficult it is for me to trust others. T asked me to trust the process, even in those moments it felt like I didn't trust him.

Weeks later, I saw something in T's office which made me think MT *might* still there. Basically, I convinced myself, I was wrong. ( I didn't trust myself after T#1 termination) I thought I was over-reacting, hypervigilant. I reminded myself to trust the process. Blah, blah, blah.

Recently, I learned the truth. It's hard not to fall back into the old patterns. It is hard for me to know what is true and not true...real and not real. I spent my entire life being lied to by others and lying to myself.

I do wish i could just snap out of it and KNOW.

Originally Posted by hankster

I don't think any T is going to put our self-interest before his. That's saying he would harm himself for us.

I think you're getting somewhere now - you were kind of stuck in a logic loop you couldn't get out of? keep going. but you haven't really answered my post? I don't mean to annoy, I am just trying to find a way out of the pain.

Most of my T's , especially the two after TT, have said it. (Both said it in reference to TT who terminated me because of his own stuff)

Maybe, I misunderstood?

Originally Posted by hankster

I don't think any T is going to put our self-interest before his. That's saying he would harm himself for us.

I think you're getting somewhere now - you were kind of stuck in a logic loop you couldn't get out of? keep going. but you haven't really answered my post? I don't mean to annoy, I am just trying to find a way out of the pain.

I did ask them. If you want to know their reply, read T's reply to this incident. You'll get the idea.