[skysblue]

I am who I am who I am.

I'm not sure how you would define "character defects". I guess if I am thinking about myself, probably my greatest "character defect" would be like like of assertiveness (though, again, I'm not sure about your terminology). It is something about my personality that has caused me difficulties in all aspects of my life. Therapy has moved me well along in correcting this "defect". I'm not all the way there yet, but I'm on my way.

My husband's "defect" was probably his tendency to be "mean" at times when he was stressed. He, too, has come a long way in learning different ways to cope so that this trait is almost gone at this point.

I think I prefer to see these things as inefficient, unhealthy habits we get into. Like all habits, they can be changed over time with therapy.

I have no idea if this addresses your post or not, but that's my take on it.

[WePow]

I agree with Chris here. I also have found that there are certain things about me (such as my anger outbursts at work) that I know are a part of who I am, but I am the one who wants that to change. It takes a lot of work and honesty, but I also think that we can heal some of the wounds who make us respond to things in certain ways.

[Luce]

I think what therapy can help us to do is to learn different ways of dealing with a variety of stressors and situations and - more importantly - learn self-acceptance.
To me the term 'character defects' implies a lack of something that 'everyone else' has, but the reallity is that, by this definition, *everybody* has a 'character defect'. Which is where self-acceptance comes into it. We are all flawed human beings with our unique strengths, weaknesses and downfalls. No one of us has any more value than another (except perhaps for possession of financial worth!) We all have our challenges, our 'defects', our habits and traits that drive others crazy. AND we all have gifts to share with others - kindness, compassion, generosity, love, patience, tolerance or whatever... everyone has their strengths to share with others.
I definitely have areas of character that I consider to be 'flawed', but I don't think it is something that needs to be 'righted'. It is just a part or who I am - my uniqueness. To some others my flaws would be major ones, and too great to be accepted in an ongoing relationship of any kind. To others those same flaws are considered to be endearing quirks. What is seen as a flaw by one is not necessarily seen as a flaw by another.

So I don't believe that our innate character can be altered by therapy. As you say, we are who we are who we are. BUT, therapy can help us change our perception of those character traits that we dislike, and allow us to embrace our humanness, flaws and all.

[skysblue]

I guess I'm not sure myself what I mean. But let's say we believe ourselves to be intrinsically selfish or lazy or greedy or self-indulgent or ....

So, let's say we learn by self-control and willpower to change some behaviors associated with our character flaws, does that mean we no longer have those flaws or that they're held at bay simply by continually flexing those control 'muscles'? And when/if we relax, those defects will become the default again?

Luce mentions accepting our flaws and embracing our humanness. Is that the basic goal of therapy? Or maybe therapy is 2-pronged - building 'muscles' (behavior modification) along with acceptance?

Or as Chris mentions, these 'defects' may just be bad habits that can be changed into healthier habits?

In that case - we're faced with a ton of lifelong work. Or maybe, acceptance is the best route - I am who I am who I am. (Maybe I'm feeling defeated at the moment)

[eskielover]

We are the neuropathways that our genes & our envorinment created in our thinking.....however, neuropathways can be changed. People who have had a stroke or a person who has had a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) can learn to talk & walk all over again. We can learn a new language if we were to move to a foreign country. These neuropathways are the same one that make us who we are....

Therefore, if those neuropathways can be redeveloped, then so can the "who we are" neuropathways....at least the ones that are causing of problems in our life......we can learn new skills to make our life better.....we learn new things & ways of handling things & we practice the thinking that is involved with it & with practice it then becomes the "NEW WHO WE ARE". This implies that there is a mentor or T or DBT group or something out there in our lives that can introduce those new ways of thinking & acting into our life so that we can learn how to apply them in appropriate ways.

Yes, our personalities can have the things that don't work & don't interface well with others change....it takes time, it takes being aware, & it takes PRACTICE with those different ways of thinking.

So NO, we do not have to be stuck with the "I am who I am who I am"....but we have to be made aware of what those character defects are & be provided ourselves with an alternate who to practice replacing the previous who with". It's a long process & has to be something YOU WANT TO DO......but yes, it's definitely possible.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by skysblue

I guess I'm not sure myself what I mean. But let's say we believe ourselves to be intrinsically selfish or lazy or greedy or self-indulgent or ....

So, let's say we learn by self-control and willpower to change some behaviors associated with our character flaws, does that mean we no longer have those flaws or that they're held at bay simply by continually flexing those control 'muscles'? And when/if we relax, those defects will become the default again?

Luce mentions accepting our flaws and embracing our humanness. Is that the basic goal of therapy? Or maybe therapy is 2-pronged - building 'muscles' (behavior modification) along with acceptance?

Or as Chris mentions, these 'defects' may just be bad habits that can be changed into healthier habits?

In that case - we're faced with a ton of lifelong work. Or maybe, acceptance is the best route - I am who I am who I am. (Maybe I'm feeling defeated at the moment)

There are many different theories about human development, and many of them believe that there are certain aspects of character that are unchangeable. For instance - extroversion vs introversion. If one sits at either extreme I don't believe there is any therapy in the world that could shift it, although by being aware of one's own tendencies one could work at developing more balance in life.

Some of my less desirable traits are that I am lazy, I have a low threshold for sensory stimulation and I am highly introverted. They are part of my neural make up - I doubt I could chang any of them. BUT I *can* change my awareness of them and take them into account when planning my daily life. My social calendar is planned with lots of breaks to give me time to recharge myself, my daily tasks are ordered to maximise effeciency while minimising effort, and I always arrage and 'escape route' of sorts to remove myself from situations where I am sensorially overwhelmed.

Maybe the first step is to change from thinking about aspects of character as being 'flawed' or 'defective' to simply being part of who you are. Embrace your laziness!

By the way, every single one of us is intrinsically selfish. It's necessary for survival. Even when people are *apparently* not selfish, they are - their need to give to others is exactly that - their OWN need. They give because doing so makes THEM feel good. Don't get me wrong, I fully admire people who give to others. I just have the belief that pretty much everything we do as humans at it's most basic level is driven by fact that it primarily serves ourselves. (Probably not a popular view, but there you have it. My strong viewpoints are probably one of my greatest character flaws.)

This is way too deep for me to even comment on. I don't get this at all.

[Dinah]

Originally Posted by skysblue

I guess I'm not sure myself what I mean. But let's say we believe ourselves to be intrinsically selfish or lazy or greedy or self-indulgent or ....

So, let's say we learn by self-control and willpower to change some behaviors associated with our character flaws, does that mean we no longer have those flaws or that they're held at bay simply by continually flexing those control 'muscles'? And when/if we relax, those defects will become the default again?

Perhaps those things are more inclination than defect. If you use will and self control to become productive despite inclinations to laziness, you clearly aren't lazy. If you use will to overcome inclinations to selfishness, then clearly it's important to you to consider the needs of others.

As the Sorting Hat says, our choices affect our destinies just as much as our natures.

Your not who you think you are, is what I found. I'd tsken in other peoples sickness and made it "me", I begun to view the world in certain ways because of this, thinking "this is who I am", all this is a defence against the pain of finding out the emotional abandoments I expereinced that prevented me becoming who I could be. My B/w thinking is changing now, my persaonal prejudices and beliefs I thought were mine are falling away.

[Sannah]

Skysblue, I get the feeling that the character defects that you think you have you were told that you had?

[stopdog]

With character flaws, I think there is a distinction between those one is willing to change and those one accepts about oneself/unwilling to change. I have some that I acknowledge but that do not bother me/my relationships enough to change. Others I compromise on. I do not think they are so essential that I cannot change, but certainly there are some I am unwilling to change. I guess I do not believe the ones I am unwilling to change are actually flaws. Others, of course, may disagree.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by earthmamma

Your not who you think you are, is what I found. I'd tsken in other peoples sickness and made it "me", I begun to view the world in certain ways because of this, thinking "this is who I am", all this is a defence against the pain of finding out the emotional abandoments I expereinced that prevented me becoming who I could be. My B/w thinking is changing now, my persaonal prejudices and beliefs I thought were mine are falling away.

I could not agree more. I made many assumptions based on others' behaviors, values, judgments, and many of them turned out to be false. Others' decided what I was, and I accepted it. Now, as I get older, and stop 1) second guessing myself; 2) looking for ANYTHING in terms of self-definition outside of myself, I'm freer and happer. And therapy doesn't work as well, because (see above). I was looking for definition from a therapist or from the process of therapy and I am not finding it. I think the fact that I did not idealize my last T was a clue, and there have been other indications as well. I am going to need a hell of a new T...... A lot of what I thought was mine, was (quoted again) and is falling away. Hurahh!

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by skysblue

let's say we believe ourselves to be intrinsically selfish or lazy or greedy or self-indulgent or ....

All those words describe not factual character traits, but emotional reactions to them. Instead of someone admitting to themselves that they feel uncomfortable when they see a certain behavior by you, they say you are "selfish" or "lazy" or... Then, of course, you internalize that judgement made by them...

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

All those words describe not factual character traits, but emotional reactions to them. Instead of someone admitting to themselves that they feel uncomfortable when they see a certain behavior by you, they say you are "selfish" or "lazy" or... Then, of course, you internalize that judgement made by them...

I think I need to disagree. Sure, there are situations in which people are told they are certain things and it's not true. So, yeah, that happens.

I'm talking about self-realized, self-acknowledged character weaknesses. And of course, there IS an emotional reaction to them also, in my case. But the emotional reaction is NOT the flaw.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Skysblue, I get the feeling that the character defects that you think you have you were told that you had?

No,not really.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by skysblue

I'm talking about self-realized, self-acknowledged character weaknesses. And of course, there IS an emotional reaction to them also, in my case. But the emotional reaction is NOT the flaw.

I think I need to disagree. Are you certain the emotional reaction is genuinely yours, or something that was originally outside of you but which you have internalized?

[Dinah]

Originally Posted by skysblue

I think I need to disagree. Sure, there are situations in which people are told they are certain things and it's not true. So, yeah, that happens.

I'm talking about self-realized, self-acknowledged character weaknesses. And of course, there IS an emotional reaction to them also, in my case. But the emotional reaction is NOT the flaw.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taking a moral inventory, and being honest with ourselves. I'm inclined to sloth and self absorption. And a bit to self indulgence. I fight the first two, but not the last so much.

I think I just disagree that inclinations make up who we are. They're more the potential of who we are. It's our choices that determine who we are. You can choose to fight the inclinations if fighting them is important to you. Or not fighting them if it isn't. It would be a sad world if there was no possibility of will overcoming inclination.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Dinah

I

It's our choices that determine who we are. You can choose to fight the inclinations if fighting them is important to you. Or not fighting them if it isn't. It would be a sad world if there was no possibility of will overcoming inclination.

Yeah, but here's the kicker - how to find the will. Strong desire to change but obviously not strong enough.

So, add to the dismay of having the defect, the lack of enough "will" to change. Double whammy!!

So, the obvious answer then is that the 'winner' is the defect. (by choice)

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Yeah, but here's the kicker - how to find the will. Strong desire to change but obviously not strong enough.

Maybe changing these things isn't really what you want? Or having these traits has a positive pay off?

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Maybe changing these things isn't really what you want? Or having these traits has a positive pay off?

Well, now we have a triple whammy! I think I'll just go bury my head in the sand right now, ok?

[Dinah]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Yeah, but here's the kicker - how to find the will. Strong desire to change but obviously not strong enough.

So, add to the dismay of having the defect, the lack of enough "will" to change. Double whammy!!

So, the obvious answer then is that the 'winner' is the defect. (by choice)

Well, I find that too. I find myself wondering why I do the things I do, and don't do the things I want to do. Sometimes I even hate myself for that. I've tried admitting my failures and asking a higher power for strength. But all too often I end up not doing what I should. (Which for my inclinations is a lot more of a problem than doing what I shouldn't do.)

But sometimes I succeed as well. And I suppose I find the fact that I fail more often than I'd like no excuse for not continuing to try.

I'm not sure that I can think of a character flaw that doesn't have a positive side to it. Selfish-- at least you take care of your own needs, which is something a lot of people have trouble doing, and end up focusing exclusively on other people. Lazy-- at least you (not you, skysblue, but the generic you) know how to slow down and rest, which is critical for health. You get the idea.

But I would agree with the person earlier in this thread who wrote about the distinction between who we are versus how we behave. For example, I believe myself to be a person who desires to control other people, and I salivate at how easy my life would be if I could get my husband and son to do exactly what I want, when I want it. I also have a job where I have a fair amount of influence over people and, although I don't feel the same pull to control my clients and others, I realize it would not be hard to do. I consider myself to have the ability to influence others (certainly my family), and feel I have to be aware of myself and my own desires in how I treat other people. I don't believe like I act like a control freak, however. I often consciously stop myself before I try to get my husband to do the 1,239th thing Exactly The Way I Like It. If it's something important to me, I try to be direct about it, rather than using a coercive or manipulative tool. I don't always succeed. I try to respond to my 10 year old son in ways that encourage his critical thinking, rather than try to get him to be just like me. This was put to the test not long ago, when he decided he wanted to "support" a political candidate for president who is an utter lunatic. That lasted about a week, fortunately.

I don't know if therapy or anything else can change who we are. I think that therapy has definitely changed a couple of things about my flaws: 1) made me more accepting of them; and 2) made me more aware of them, and this allows me to be more mindful in my relationships to other people, so I don't act on them.

Anne

[PreacherHeckler]

I don't think of therapy as something that will change who I am. I think of it more as something that can help me become the person I was meant to be, and in the process of becoming who I was meant to be, I need to learn more about who I am so that I can make lasting changes in my behavior.

[skysblue]

I'm resurrecting this thread because it's still an issue that haunts me. As I fail and fail at self-improvement, it seems that my problems are a result of a serious character defect that cannot be corrected. If that is true, then how can therapy help? Just give up and somehow accept what a wretch I am?