forgiveness

following up something that T and I discussed recently, I read an article yesterday that said, unless one has forgiveness for self, it's impossible to truly forgive others. I took exception to this. I felt that I do have compassion for others & am certainly capable of forgiveness...

To prove it to myself I made a short list of people in my life (past and present) who have harmed/offended me, and noted for each whether or not I have forgiveness for them. The results, to my surprise, were mixed. So I am thinking, not impossible, maybe difficult - then again, it is another questoin entirely, whether the two concepts (forgiveness of self & others) are connected at all.

I am aware of a couple of PC people who also struggle with self forgiveness; might I ask how you would stand with a similar list? If this is too personal to post publicly you might PM me? thanks

T and I have been talking about something similar recently... My issue is my concept of myself is that I am a major screw up, I have issues, I am not good, etc.. Therefore there is no way in hell I could ever forgive myself. However, that does not translate into my relationships. I find that I have forgiven most people in my life who have harmed, offended me.

I tend to be really hard on myself, but just really forgiving and compassionate for other people.

Forgiveness is an issue for me.

but CantExplain, Healed84, do you feel that you are unable to forgive anyone? I am not sure that that's valid at all.

I emailed T... having a hard time with this... not having a hard time saying what forgiveness for myself would look like; I can't even get there. Am having a hard time understanding why it's necessary.

She hasn't answered. As the silence grows, I find a growing worry that she's going to boot me. Well, SAWE, if you are OK with the way your life is going, there's nothing that therapy can do for you. yikes........

I detest myself and am very abusive to myself, but I let things that other people do go quite easily. I made a list like you did, and I had forgiven all but one.

This is interesting... I wonder if forgiveness is affected by codependant behavior. I know that I am hard on myself yet I forgive others easily...

There is one person in my past who I will never, ever forgive - ever. I hate his guts and will carry that hatred with me to my grave.

It may (or may not!) indicate a deficit on my part, but I really don't care.

When I was in a 12step group they were heavy on resentments. I nearly killed myself trying to find goodness in everyone, now? I hold a grudge for a while, why? Because I'm human and when hurt to protect myself a grudge gives me the time to work it all through. Once I'm ready, and this happens in its own time, the grudge goes the person concerned means little to me. If I think their worth understanding I will try, if I think they lack any ability to be able to have their own insights then I waste no more time on them. I am not saintly and do not go through live being understanding to everyone, some really are not worthy of it so move on to those that are. Simpledotcom. Those that preach forgiveness I have found to be the least forgiving.

If you really want to stretch your ideas about forgiveness, check out the documentary Forgiving Dr. Mengele. Really fascinating movie about a woman who was in the concentration camps and who, along with her twin sister, was experimented on by Mengele. It's especially interesting to me the hostility and even hatred she receives from other holocaust survivors for choosing to forgive him. Well worth the watch.

Exactly this. Cast not your pearls before swine. That quote from the Bible used to run in my head all the time, until I stopped doing it.

oh, there are so many Biblical quotes to the contrary. "so shall your heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not your brother from your heart".... "even as God has forgiven you, so do you forgive", etc. Lots and lots of them. So yes we should strive to forgive others, as far as in us lies.

I am not finding however any admonitions about forgiving oneself, and wonder how that has arisen in psychological thought.

i don't know to what extend i am able to forgive.sometimes i feel i have forgiven and then the anger and all takes over and forgivness is so so far away.can you kind of forgive when you feel it and then take it back.this is what i feel i do.i know kind of nutty

hmmmm.. yea, makes me think, the ones that say that-- in the profession-- are just saying it to push the client towards self-forgiveness, not that it's a proven fact.

I have forgiven most of the people from my childhood that I was at the hands of their abuse...most... but there are a few things of myself that I haven't yet been able to forgive.....

there were horrific things these eyes saw and doubt the self's reaction or non-reaction to them......

but that sure doesn't mean I haven't forgiven others.

thanks for this thread

fins

SAWE - this is a very interesting question you've proposed. It makes me think a little more deeply about the whole process of forgiving others.

I think, for me, there's an element of dishonesty in my 'forgiving' others. Not intentional dishonesty but lack of clarity of my own emotions. See, I want to be a forgiving person and so I 'decide' to forgive.

Now, we all know that rational thinking is not the same as emotional responses. I have thought I had forgiven people but as it turns out my buried emotions about their treatment of me had not disappeared. And because of that I would find myself reacting in surprising ways.

So, how will I know if I've really forgiven someone? I can intellectualize it all I want but will I 'feel' it and know it's true? I don't know. I'm just pondering this question now.

And if I haven't really forgiven others, is that the reason why it's impossible for me to forgive myself? Very interesting dilemma.

my own $0.02,

forgiveness can vary from point to point in time, as Granite said (no that's not nutty, Granite, that's human nature. We vacillate.... It's part of the territory.)

"feeling it and knowing that it's true" is pairing up two things that don't necessarily have to go together. You can truly, really, love someone, without feeling hearts & flowers at every moment. So if you decide to forgive, while in yr "wise mind", and later yr feeling surprise you, well, I wouldn't stress over it. You may have more to work through, but your resolve is still steady.

I think that wanting to be a forgiving person, toward others, is what's asked. But where self forgiveness comes into it, and why the T community generally points people toward that, is still a puzzle for me.

Yeah, and get this, PC:

There is also a second part of this bible verse, which I find really instructive. HERE: It urges people not to cast their pearls before swine lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces

Having been torn to pieces (notably during my last therapy) I watch out for my pearls these days.

How are you stewarding your pearls?

Its only when the forgiveness question comes up do I think about it. I really don't feel there's anyone to forgive. People did what they did and I realise now that I've just come to a place of acceptence over it. I don't wish harm to anyone from my past, I think everyone including myself is "right sized" now. Self forgiveness? That would mean I'd have to be thinking about myself in some over sized propotion. I accept myself and don't see why self forgiveness would even be an issue. Its never come up in my therapy, I've not been directed in that way, but then I'm not part of any christian society that gets off on beating oneself up to then dust oneself down. Its all to me me me focused to be fair. I am who I am until I am no more.

In Modern Man in Search of a Soul, Jung wrote: “The acceptance of oneself is the essence of the moral problem and the epitome of a whole outlook on life. That I feed the hungry, that I forgive an insult, and that I love my enemy as myself in the name of Christ are all undoubtedly great virtues. What I do unto the least of my brethren, that I do unto Christ. But what if I should discover that the least amongst them all, the poorest of the beggars, the most impudent of all the offenders, the very enemy himself – these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of the arms of my own kindness. What if I am the enemy to be loved, what then?”

My T is Jewish (as are my husband, and most of the people I claim as 'family' now). In the Jewish faith, in order to obtain forgiveness, you must speak to the person you harmed, apologize with a genuine intent not to commit the harm again and do what you can to make restitution. THEN, God will forgive you. Jesus created a handy dandy short-cut, but I'm not a fan of it. [no disrespect intended, really.]

Anyhow . . . My T's thing is that other than my father, no one has ever apologized for the stuff they did to me, first. Second, no one involved has any intention of doing anything differently in the future. Therefore, "forgiveness" is not one of the options. There is grief for the losses involved, and acceptance at some point, and hopefully an awareness of why it isn't MY fault. But no forgiveness. If I wish to forgive them, fine, but it's not something we even strive for in therapy.

interesting.....
I tend to think of compassion/forgiveness along the same lines perhaps...I don't think they're the same, but surely interrelated. Anyway, I do have a capacity to feel compassion for others' faults/failings or even the hurts they've caused me......I think of my parents. I don't know if I even ever thought of 'forgiving' them per se, but over the years I realized that anger/bitterness toward them had dissipated and instead there was a compassion, an acceptance of what had happened/maybe a sorrow over it perhaps, but just a feeling of being sorry for them, for their failures, lacks, etc. Not sure how to describe it because I don't think it was a conscious event, but a gradual one.....maybe something in distancing/detaching from the anger. Why should I hold to anger/bitterness because of someone's hurtful words/actions toward me and hurt myself more, in a sense allow their hurt of me to be continued in perpetuity? Maybe that crosses over into looking out for my own emotional interests...
Nonetheless, though I have the capacity for compassion/empathy toward others, an ability to let go of anger/bitterness toward others, I seem to lack the same capacity yet for self-compassion.....at least this is how my Ts each saw it. Why not forgive myself, accept forgiveness for myself? Why not let go of anger/disgust for myself? Maybe I don't feel I really am forgivable, that I am only judgable, so to speak. I don't know, still working on that!
What I know is there needs to be a balance somehow.....for each of us, the balance will look a little different.....

In my upbringing, I was always taught that forgiveness is done for myself so that I can hopefully find some peace. It really has nothing to do with showing any kind of approval for what someone has done. There are people in my life who have been absolute monsters. They don't care about what they have done, nor have they apologized. But forgiving them is not contingent on either one. I choose to forgive so that I don't continue to be eaten up inside.

I also agree with what Granite said. I think forgiveness is not necessarily a once and for all event. I may forgive my abuser, but then a new memory comes up or something triggers me, and I go through the process again.

I haven't struggled too much with a need for self forgiveness. Some, but I was able to wrap my head around that fairly easily for the most part.

I kind of see forgiveness and healing as going hand in hand for me. It is a process of finding some peace with myself and my life. Not easy though at all. I really struggled with forgiveness when I was younger, but it has become easier as I've come to understand it better.

I think like grief, forgiveness may have "steps":

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ts-forgiveness

Perhaps one has to be familiar with the concept from forgiving one's self to be able to apply something learned then, to other people. If we have no experience with something ourselves, it's hard to "do" it outside ourselves?

So many people, so many things to forgive. I struggled for so long and it's only recently that I can truly say I've been able to "wipe the slate clean" and forgive the people who have hurt me.

The biggest act of forgiveness was myself. Forgiveness for the lost years, for the bad decisions, for the things I did do, the things I didn't do. I've finally come to a place of healing where I can truly and honestly say I've forgiven myself. It took lots of hard, agonizing work, self reflection and brutal honesty to get here. But I finally like and love the person I am. And that's a major change from where I was only a short time ago.

Lots of love and hugs to everyone on their own journey to forgiveness

My wife said something very like this. "Some things are not supposed to be forgiven."

I have a problem with forgiveness. I don't do it. That is the problem, haha. But i have read many times that forgiveness is a choice. I doubt it's that easy though. Sounds wayyyy too easy!