[sittingatwatersedge]

Lightbulb moment ?

- i realized a possible reason for the Ts' mysterious policy about not being friends with clients.

could it be because we tell them the darkest, most repulsive side of ourselves and they don't want to be friends with someone like that?
but they are too considerate of our already damaged egos, to come right out and sayi it.............. ??

After all I would bet $95857463 they don't know that side of their "IRL" friends.

ya know, if this is it, I can't say I blame them.

[kiki86]

no i don't think that's it at all. i think it's for our safety and their sanity. we can't be thinking about them or we won't progress when we're supposed to focus on ourselves and we wouldn't share what we share with our t's if they knew us in real life, like you say, your friends don't know those things about you, do they? and i would say 99% of patients would have difficulty separating the t from the friend. how could the T ever get a break from being a T if his clients were also his friends?

[pegasus]

No, it's actually part of the rules and ethics of being a professional and if your therapist is part of a professional organisation, they have to follow those rules. The rules are there for a good reason. Even if your therapist wanted to be your friend in real life it's not possible because of the power inbalance. It's not because you feel you are too damaged, they are following their code of conduct and that code of conduct is there to protect you. Hugs

[sittingatwatersedge]

but Kiiki, my closest friend does know some of what T knows; and I see in T a brilliant, interesting person I'd love to know IRL.

You may be different, maybe you are seeing a T for something that doesn't involve yr dark side, grief maybe, lots of other things.

In my own case anyway, I have a feeling I might be right... all the "ethics" rigmarole has never made sense to me, it's hogwash maybe you think? Let me be clear - I am NOT making a pitch for T2 to be my friend; she already knows the despicable thing I am, she would never ever want to be friends with someone like that. I was just thinking.

[unaluna]

umm... from what I found out about my T's dark repulsive side via an email gone awry last year, I would say it's because our damaged egos can't handle all THEIR creepiness. Surgeons scrub for 15 minutes before they operate cos they are full of cooties; IMO, T's do the same. They present us a sanitized version of themselves because that's what we need to heal. But just as we stay out of our parents' bedrooms and private lives in general, and want our own friends, same goes for T's.

[kiki86]

I see in T a brilliant, interesting person I'd love to know IRL

i feel that about my T too. and you're right i don't see a t for any kind of "dark side" though i'm not quite sure what you mean by that, nor do i see him for grief. i have bpd.

i just think like pegasus said the power imbalance is too great. sometimes i wish things were different. but when i think about how a relationship with my T outside of therapy would be, i know it wouldn't be right. he would know all my insecurities and issues and would always be trying not to trigger me. if i found out, for example, that something traumatic had happened in his past, how could i talk about that same thing in therapy because i would be thinking of HIS feelings. which isn't right. what if we had a fight? can you imagine the kind of problems that would cause in therapy? i just don't think you can switch roles like that. a therapist is so different from any other role in your life and they need to be separate i think.

[kiki86]

Surgeons scrub for 15 minutes before they operate cos they are full of cooties; IMO, T's do the same

ha ha. what a wonderful analogy.

I don't know, I'm not sure I agree. For one, we don't know our therapists' own darkest side, and I have a feeling a lot of times they empathize with and relate to us a lot more than we will ever know.

Being trained professionals, they understand that really bad things go on in peoples' lives that do not make the individuals themselves bad or repulsive. No one can say for sure what is going on in t's minds of course, but I believe in general it really is about ethics and safety.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Lightbulb moment ?

- i realized a possible reason for the Ts' mysterious policy about not being friends with clients.

could it be because we tell them the darkest, most repulsive side of ourselves and they don't want to be friends with someone like that?
but they are too considerate of our already damaged egos, to come right out and sayi it.............. ??

After all I would bet $95857463 they don't know that side of their "IRL" friends.

ya know, if this is it, I can't say I blame them.

For me personally, I'm sure it's true - it would never occur to me that it wouldn't be. (and I haven't even started on my most repulsive secrets...) But I'm also sure it doesn't apply to all clients, and the T ethics and rules are the primary reasons why they don't enter into friendships with clients.

T and I talked years ago in therapy about why we could never be friends. He said that if therapy ended, and we became friends, then I would be losing a therapist...I wouldn't have him to call when things came up and what I needed was a therapist to work through it with me. It made sense, and I also felt (a little desperately!) like "no way, it's okay! I'll find a different T"

T HAS told me that he thinks if we met in "real life" that we would be great friends. He knows I am not the darkness of my past. Your T knows that too, sawe.

Now that I have the experience of ending therapy, I am SO GRATEFUL that T has that boundary in place. Something came up in my life this week that was a pretty enormous deal - having to do with the health of one of my children - and I was able to call T for help in dealing with it. It made me feel so much safer knowing that he was out there, that I could reach out for help that was all about ME (because I was supporting everyone else and really needed support), that he will always, always be there for me as a therapist if I need him. I *could* find a new T, of course, but this one knows me inside and out, and being able to call in a time of crisis and knowing that he knows me and my son and my family situation and exactly what words would help was more helpful than I have words for.

I love my ex/part-time T SO very much and I would love to be friends with him. But I can't, and this is really good too.

I used to be sad about that boundary, but now I'm grateful for it.

[stopdog]

I don't think that is the reason. I was friends with an ex therapist. Not that different than with any other friend.

[geez]

It can be just as hard for T's as it is for us. T2 told me once that she sometimes may have something in common with someone and wishes she could spend time outside of the therapy room but that can never happen.

[sittingatwatersedge]

FWIW I ran this theory by my T. she seemed amused.

and among other things, she said, Therapists have dark sides too. I am no better than you.

Now that's something I will never believe !

[autotelica]

Originally Posted by hankster

umm... from what I found out about my T's dark repulsive side via an email gone awry last year, I would say it's because our damaged egos can't handle all THEIR creepiness. Surgeons scrub for 15 minutes before they operate cos they are full of cooties; IMO, T's do the same. They present us a sanitized version of themselves because that's what we need to heal. But just as we stay out of our parents' bedrooms and private lives in general, and want our own friends, same goes for T's.

So true. I love my therapist in the confines of her office, where our time together is limited and there are prescribed rules of conduct. But outside, it's fair game. She can already be *****y in session, so I can just imagine how she is with waitstaff in restaurants. She speaks of her husband in loving terms, but there's something about her that makes me think she can be a screaming nag. She seems patient and all-forgiving in session, but who could keep that up in real life? And why should she?

My problems with people usually crop up when I see "how they really are". My therapist may be a beautiful person outside of the office, but I'm too afraid to find out.

[WikidPissah]

SAWE - you are NOT creepy and/or dark. You have a point though, I don't know that kind of dark stuff about my friends.

Hanksta - How do you get past creepy email? I got one of those accidentally from t over a year ago and it still freaks me out.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

Hanksta - How do you get past creepy email? I got one of those accidentally from t over a year ago and it still freaks me out.

Why am I only hearing about this NOW??!! Okay, so maybe it happened before we knew each other

Step 1. Reply to it, saying you got it by mistake, then delete all copies of it on your side, in your trash, your sent box, everywhere, so you can never look at it again, because you know you will if you can.

2. your email should elicit a phone call of apology. if it doesn't, call T (give them a few hours) and yell at them.

3. keep talking about it (they should give you some free extra sessions - this is their *****, not yours). They should see someone too.

4. Get a consult, someone you trust. I asked 3 people, my former t/pdoc, a good friend who is a counselor (Masters degree), and my MD neighbor I sometimes shrink-rap with. They all just asked, was he helping you, and do you think he can keep helping you? These are the ONLY people I talked to about it, which is surprising, given my usual big mouth.

5. During this whole time, I felt like I was hyper-aware, like of my feelings? I certainly didn't snooze during sessions. I interrupted him as often as I wanted, if he started yakking about a phase of it that was irrelevant to me.

6. and now that it's a year later, I think we need to revisit it. I need to ask the questions I was afraid to ask last year.

But I have totally no regrets about it. I wouldn't have come looking for PC if not for his errant email, and PC has been the best frickin thing that ever happened to me. And it brought me closer to T. So it turned out pretty darn good. Plus it was a well-written email, he got points for that!

[WikidPissah]

hmmm....needs enlightenment, but I don't want to hijack SAWE's thread. I did do number 1, then I just got in the fetal position, covered my eyes and ears and chanted "I didn't read that". Because you know, that's what T's do when they see our yicky stuff.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

then I just got in the fetal position, covered my eyes and ears and chanted "I didn't read that".

that would have been awkward for me to do, I was in the downtown public library

[stopdog]

I have friends who are therapists and they don't know the stuff I tell the therapist. They don't even know I see a therapist. And they are certainly not all better than anyone else in their real lives and they do have dark sides. Why would a therapist not have a dark side or troubles. So many of them become therapists because their families/lives were/are so messed up. One friend who works as a therapist can barely find her way to her car each day - she loses everything. We have spent hours looking for keys, books, wallet etc before we could leave the house. I am often surprised she can find her way to her office and not misplace her clients.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

a possible reason for the Ts' mysterious policy

No, and no. It's hardly a mysterious policy. Not being friends with clients is because there is work and there is one's life. Are you good friends with your lawyer? Your accountant? Your dry cleaner?

Friends come into our lives and we into theirs at a certain time over a certain period around a certain issue. You were friends with neighborhood children because you were in the same neighborhood, school friends because you were in the same class/school, work friends because you worked together, hobby and volunteer friends because you volunteered for the same group/cause. When whatever goes away, usually the friendship drops off too. My very very good friends from work, I haven't seen/done anything with for several years (I retired in 2005), all the "we must get together!" in the world can't do much with that. My high school friends I'd give my life for, I see them at 10 year high school reunions ((next will be 50th) we go and get a room together in the hotel the reunion is in; they're out of town, I'm not). One can't be friends with one's T during therapy, that would mess up the therapy and, afterwards, everyone is moving on with their lives which aren't similar unless you are another T, live in T's neighborhood, went to school with T, etc.

I know some of my good friends' deep dark secrets and they know mine too. My friends (family and work friends) know about my therapy, what I'm working on and why, etc. I share myself with my friends and family, that's one reason I was in therapy. When I am stumped about myself, I ask my husband to describe me, to tell me why he likes and loves me as I trust him and his judgement and he's articulate enough to do a good job so I have something to grasp and work with.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by Perna

Are you good friends with your lawyer? Your accountant? Your dry cleaner? .

Hm..... a friend of mine said,

I could be friends with my doctor;
but I could never be friends with my gynecologist.

[unaluna]

good points, perna. there was an article in last week's nytimes about how hard it was to make n friends later in adulthood. they didn't really mention your T as a possible source!

[Perna]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

but I could never be friends with my gynecologist.

My sister use to run into her OB/GYN at parties and was not thrilled with that

[bamapsych]

I wanted to be friends with my now exT so bad that she terminated me. She and her supervisor said that she probably had some counter-transference going on, but wouldn't elaborate on that. I still to this day think about her multiple times each day. I know so many ways of contacting her, but I don't want either of us to get into trouble. I always held back from telling her the dark stuff because I thought "I don't want her to know this just in case we ever become frineds when therapy is over." My current T, which is exT's supervisor, is great. I like her and she is friendly most of the time, but I don't want to be friends with her IRL. I have been able to open up and tell her dark stuff, so I'd feel really uncomfortable with her outside of therapy. And she just isn't my type either. We have tons in common, but I know we would have issues as friends.

My uncle is a pdoc and I told current T about it. She admitted that T's CAN be friends with FORMER clients, but once this happens, they can NEVER be your T again. It happens more than they will ever admit to lol. They use the "ethics" as an excuse to protect themselves. They don't want to deal with us outside of therapy, and I don't blame them one bit. She said that when I'm finished with therapy that we might "have coffee or something like that, but we can't be friends." I was sitting there thinking "Yuck! not with you!" I'd jump on that with exT, but not with current T even if my work with her was finished...

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by bamapsych

She admitted that T's CAN be friends with FORMER clients, but once this happens, they can NEVER be your T again. It happens more than they will ever admit to lol. They use the "ethics" as an excuse to protect themselves. see, I knew it. They don't want to deal with us outside of therapy, and I don't blame them one bit. *sigh* yeah, me either. She said that when I'm finished with therapy that we might "have coffee or something like that, but we can't be friends." .

I might settle for having coffee with T2 some time, after our work is done, if she was agreeable.
I don't say that we could be friends; I doubt very much that she has any friends at all like me. But I like her, I respect her, I have admiration for her great compassion & intelligence. It doesn't seem like such a big bad thing. oh well.