[peaches100]

Lately in t, I've been encouraged to tell my t (and others) if I feel hurt or angry about something. In the past, I've always just kept my mouth shut to avoid problems. So now, I'm trying to be more vocal. The problem is, it is not going well. I seem to have found an "angry" part of me and get tweaked at my t regularly. I don't try to do it, but it just happens. In the past, she has always been good about accepting my anger or hurt feelings, and trying to find out where they are coming from. Usually, we find out they are based on past hurts, and that instead of t doing something to purposely hurt me, she has just said or done something that triggered "old stuff" for me. We talk it over, and things are good again.

The problem is, sometimes when I get upset with my t, she has suggested that I consider seeing a different therapist. She has told me that there are other t's who are more qualified with my type of issues. She doesn't bring it up often, but when she does, it seems to happen after we've had a rupture of some kind, where I've expressed that she hurt my feelings or made me angry. I have pretty severe abandonment issues, and she knows that when she says this, it triggers those fears. Whenever she has broached the subject of seeing a different t, I have always told her no, I want to stay with her. In about 10 years of therapy, she has brought it up about 4 times.

Anyway, she brought it up again last week, after I reminded her of somethign she'd done in the past that was hurtful to me. So it is making me feel like (1) I can't tell her when I'm upset with her because she will want me to switch t's, and (2) It also makes me feel like maybe she is trying to get rid of me. When she brought it up last week, she prefaced it by saying, "I know you hate it when I bring this up, but I'm going to anyway." So she definitely knows it's a trigger for me.

Well, after my session, it started bothering me more and more what she said. So I sent her this message;

R,


At your suggestion, I'm looking into other therapists. If you feel strongly enough about it to keep bringing it up, you must think it's important. So far, I have seen three possibilities of therapists who might be a fit. But the way I feel now, it's unlikely I would start over with somebody new.


If we can figure out a way to continue working together that seems feasible to both of us, I'd prefer that. But if you feel ambivalent enough to keep suggesting I might want to find somebody else, then we should talk. If you don't think it's working out, you need to tell me that you feel this way, and why. It's not going to work trying to encourage me to leave because I'm not the one having doubts.


T

She replied this way,

T,
Please stop reading what you think is in my mind and additionally misinterpreting my intent. You have now repeated several times that I "keep bringing it up" The other time may have been about 5-6 years ago at another time when you let me know that I had failed or disappointed you in some way. Please stop using words like ambivalence and doubts that do not reflect my sentiments.
Thank you
R

Actually, my t DID bring it up more recently than 4-5 years ago. She also brought it up last year. I remember because I actually researched some t's, but decided not to follow through. And then she brought it up last week. Am I wrong in thinking that she is having doubts about our work together, and wants me to go elsewhere? In her email, she seems to be denying that she feels that way, and that sounds angry with me for "assuming" and "misinterpreting."

I'm not sure what to do. . .

[peaches100]

PS - I should add that my h knows a lot about my therapy, and he says my t is a phenomenal t. He agrees that the problem is that I take things the wrong way.

The thing is, I'm afraid to express myself. . .because every time I do it, it ends up that I'm the one who is wrong because I have misperceived or misunderstood things. Then it ends up making me feel stupid and guilty for being angry in the first place. I end up feeling like I wish I had kept my mouth shut( which is what I used to do). But when I express that I will just stay quiet, I am told "No, it's important to express your feelings."

I feel confused.

[tinyrabbit]

First off, have a hug:

I know this must be really difficult and upsetting, especially given you have really painful wounds where abandonment is concerned. I know from my own experience that any mention of leaving therapy or of your T not being able to help can start those alarm klaxons. I'm always criticising my T (he thinks I'm trying to break down his authority as authority figures are scary and hurt me, he's probably right) but once he said: "Maybe I am inept, maybe I'm not the right person to help you," and I was FURIOUS. I didn't want HIM to say that.

I think email is always problematic because tone of voice gets lost. I also think it would be an idea to say to your T that, whatever she thinks is true, YOUR experience was that she said this. That is your truth, and I think it would be more helpful to look at what you experienced and how you felt about it, rather than her debating over what she said.

I did notice a lot of I-feel statements in your post, though.

Am I wrong in thinking that she is having doubts about our work together, and wants me to go elsewhere?

I think it's worth clarifying that you believe or feel this. Your feelings can't be 'wrong', in that they're information about how you feel, but they don't tell you what's actually going on with your T.

I don't think she's angry. I think her email sounded rather abrupt, but that's the problem with email, it can sound that way when perhaps it's not meant to. I'm just remembering a time recently when I texted my T because I was angry and he sent me this message back saying perhaps there was a misunderstanding that needed to be cleared up. I was absolutely convinced he meant he was going to terminate me, and actually we had the loveliest session ever.

I do think your T sounds abrupt, and it's worth talking to her about that, and about your experience of what she said. But I don't think she's angry.

[skysblue]

Peaches - know that you're not alone in reacting in such a way when a therapist brings up seeing another T. I would feel majorly rejected. I am definitely not an expert but it seems to me that therapists should have better skills at receiving our tough emotions than by advising us to see someone else.

AND, if they deny they've mentioned it, that would be even worse.

One possibility is that she didn't overtly make such a suggestion and that you read into it. I know I do that a lot. I will make assumptions about what someone means even though they actually have not said the words. Could that be the case here?

Anyways, good luck.

[granite1]

i can completely see how you could read into this that your T might want you to see someone else. when my T asks me why am i in T when i dont try and communicate with her,i am convinced she hates me and so on.

i think that maybe you could look at it in a differnt way, reading this it seems to me she may be pointing out that you do have a choice in this. it also seems like you still have some feelings about how she dissapointed you in the past. are you sure it has been worked through for you.

i think i would check things out in person

[pbutton]

Your message to her sounds more like you're telling her how you think she feels, rather than explaining how you feel.

[mixedup_emotions]

((( Peaches )))

I can see the predicament, and I've been experiencing something similar as well...or least, that's my perception.

I get the sense that when I tap into something that my T feels threatened or angered by, he treats me differently - which leaves me feeling like we are not on solid ground and there's a risk for undoing the entire relationship.

It leaves me less willing to talk to my T about certain things out of fear of the result. Ultimately, talking through it is what's necessary - but I understand the fear of the consequences. Maybe setting up a clear understanding and agreement with your T on certain parameters so that you can safely talk about it would be helpful.

[rainbow8]

I'm sorry you and your T are having difficulties again, Peaches. My T never used to bring up my seeing someone else, but it has happened in the last year or so. Like you, it's when I seem angry and frustrated with her. At those times, I want her to be MORE nurturing and attentive, not LESS, but instead, she says something like "if I'm not helping you, you know you can see someone else". I don't want to see someone else. I want HER to help me. So, I understand the feelings you're going through.

I don't think you should suppress your "angry parts". Since you do IFS, I think it would be a good idea to work more with them. Maybe more about your anger towards your T, and see where that leads you, even if you've done that already.

Ts aren't perfect. They can get frustrated with us, especially if they're working with us long-term. Mine told me recently that I'm challenging and I didn't like that. I want her to know what to "do with me" and it's triggering when she implies that she doesn't have all the answers.

I don't think it's helpful for you to guess what your T is thinking and feeling about you and your therapy. It's better to ask her directly, and I know you know that! She cares deeply about you, and wants what is best for you. I know you and I want more from our Ts than they can give us, and that's a huge part of the problem. I keep telling myself over and over that I have to radically accept the reality of the therapeutic relationship, but it's hard! I know we can do it, though!!

[pbutton]

Your email feels very indirect. Like you're telling her that she wants you to quit, so that she will respond and tell you that she does not want you to leave.

I think a direct approach may help clear the air. Can you tell her that you feel like she's pushing you out of therapy? Give her the opportunity to explain her point of view herself, rather than respond to your veiled accusations?

[Freewilled]

I would feel upset too if my therapist's response to my anger at him was to go elsewhere. I can also see how she felt you were telling her how she feels though....Maybe ask her in session point blank, "do you think that you can help me anymore?" Or something like that. I know that might be scary but at least you would know...

You say that your T has only brought this up no more than 4 times in 10 years, and yet you tell her she "keeps bringing it up." You might need to start by putting a reality check on your own thinking. That averages out to mentioning it only once every 2 1/2 years. That is NOT very often, certainly not often enough to really qualify as "she keeps bringing it up".

That kind of suggestion can be made for a number of reasons, probably none of which is that she is angry with you or doesn't like you or is tired of you, etc. More likely, she sees you as either frustrated or not progressing, and she is doing the professional thing in letting you know that you do have other options if you are unhappy. If that doesn't apply to you, simply don't take her suggestion.

I can remember my T suggesting the same thing some years ago. He was simply concerned that I wasn't making progress, and wanted me to feel open to other options if that would be helpful. I told him that no, my lack of progress was not due to him at all, and I would be continuing with him. End of discussion. My pdoc, about that same time, asked me to go to another pdoc for a second opinion. He wasn't saying he didn't want to work with me. He wanted someone else to put eyes on my case and offer of suggestions for any changes in treatment. I really respected that from him.

It does seem like your abandonment issues have been triggered, but understand that generally things trigger us because we aren't seeing them through clear eyes.

[Anne2.0]

I think that the other, more accurate interpretation of what your T "meant" when she said you could look for other therapists is a reminder that you are not trapped in therapy with her. You don't have to see her, you are free to find someone who won't keep hurting you-- which is how it might feel to be on the other end of those words.

Can you not imagine how it might feel to be the person on the other end of your words? I think that you are illustrating your own insensitivity in this scenario. It feels to me like one of the two following scenarios:

1. My friend and I have a standing lunch date every Thursday at a restaurant we agreed upon, that we both say we love. One week, my friend vocalizes her dissatisfaction with the food and the service to me. I'm really fine with the service and was happy with my meal. I ask her if we should switch restaurants next week. No, she says, let's meet here again. I want to respond to my friend's unhappiness with a "fix".

2. I used to teach undergraduates at a college, a course related to legal issues and social science. The first day of class, I handed out the syllabus, which listed the work students would have to complete, along with the topics for each week of class. About 8 weeks into the semester, a student came up to me and said that he was unhappy that we "kept studying women's issues." I explained, showing him the topic schedule that I'd given out, that there were issues unique to women in law, such as reproductive freedom and some forms of victimization, but that these issues were just some of many topics in this area. I didn't apologize for doing my job and I might have said that I was sorry he was disappointed. I suggested he explore other classes that might not disappoint him.

I think that pbutton hit it exactly on the head, that your email to her sounds just like you're telling her what she feels. And although I think her response to you is strongly worded, it is straightforward (rather than what yours feels like, which is indirect, to quote from pbutton again). What you might consider is that your expression of feelings is not a problem per se, but rather, if you are expressing your feelings by telling others what they think and feel, you're going to piss not only your T off, but everyone else. Perhaps it would be useful to you to take a look at HOW you are expressing your feelings and distinguishing the how from the what.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by peaches100

The thing is, I'm afraid to express myself. . . I end up feeling like I wish I had kept my mouth shut( which is what I used to do). But when I express that I will just stay quiet, I am told "No, it's important to express your feelings."

I feel confused.

I think learning to express our emotions is very confusing, especially when we are just starting to learn how

We first have to realize the feelings are always there, whether we recognize it or not, we just haven't been focusing on them. It's like the old "don't think of pink elephants" line where you then see/have to think of pink elephants or when you decide to buy a "red car" and suddenly the streets are full of red cars.

Our brain is geared to protecting us; expressing emotions in your childhood might have gotten you in trouble? Now your T is saying you should get your frontal lobe to focus on feelings, whatever is there and you have the larger-than-life problem so all your little former annoyances with T, you see as larger and think you must "express" as anger.

"Express" though is a loaded word in itself. You could say, "Ah, I feel angry right now," in a sense of wonder, as in, isn't that interesting and exciting, I don't recall feeling that so much lately; I wonder what is going on with me that I feel this way" or you can launch into an "I'm angry at you because every time I express that I am angry at you you suggest that if I don't like you maybe I should find myself another therapist and that makes me feel like I'm being abandoned."

The "how" of the expression makes a big difference, yes?

Now, look at that second "launch". What is the bottom line? You feel like you are going to be abandoned and that scares you. That is what anger is for! To help you get to the bottom of what you feel has been taken from you and, hopefully, get it back.

There is a lot of distance between the "I feel angry" and the "why" I feel angry that has to be explored, much of it in our own head and hearts because, in the end, it is about us and our individual/particular fears.

That being true, trying to get the other person not to "trigger" our anger can't work (quit suggesting I find another therapist so I don't have to feel I'm being abandoned); instead, we have to work on a dialog with ourselves and the other person to (1) make sure our perceptions of the situation are correct (why do I think T is suggesting I find another T?) (2) to see whether I have a problem or T has actually crossed a legitimate boundary and taken something that is mine from me (is my security in danger?) and (3) to decide what action to take as a result of the conversation.

It sounds to me like you should start just expressing the name of what you feel; "I think I am annoyed/angry/really pissed right now" and stop, to open the conversation with T. Get specific (correct degree; realize that thinking about anger is going to bring up angry situations and that's a good thing as you want to learn about anger but think about the actual situation; you're sitting at T's in a therapy session, discussing anger and all the two of you are doing is talking; nothing can seriously be wrong (so far) because you are just talking, so perhaps you could skip to realizing you are afraid she is going to abandon you or annoyed and frustrated because you have seemingly been in this situation before and the pattern is repeating and you don't know what to do, or whatever; but first learn to identify what you are feeling as well as you can). T will probably say some T-classic like, "Oh? Why are you feeling angry?"

That's when you get into thoughtful/dreamy mode and start a stream of consciousness connecting dots. "Well, you just said X and that is what triggered me; I think you suggested I see another T because you don't want to see me anymore, is that correct? You start reality checking with other person, exploring what you think/feel deeper and what they think/perceive,etc. Sometimes that mini-conversation will solve whatever the problem is. What is wonderful, to me, is that focusing on exploring takes away the need for the stronger, more difficult feelings, the talking is taking action and that's the point of having feelings, to help you take effective action.

But you continue like that, exploring and going back and forth, in good faith, with the other person. Sometimes the other person IS an ***/idiot/not helpful and then you know and can fall back and regroup (decide that you want to find another T, not that the other person is abandoning you and wants you gone); you become the actor instead of allowing yourself to be acted upon.

[likelife]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I think that the other, more accurate interpretation of what your T "meant" when she said you could look for other therapists is a reminder that you are not trapped in therapy with her. You don't have to see her, you are free to find someone who won't keep hurting you-- which is how it might feel to be on the other end of those words.

I don't know - it seems presumptuous to know the "more accurate" interpretation of what her T meant. I think this is certainly a plausible interpretation. It sounds like Peaches' interpretation was off, given her T's response. But since her T didn't actually state her perception, it seems best to go to the source. And perhaps I'm more biased than most right now - I see this as a reasonable interpretation, IF the T's feelings are not playing a role in her response. I don't think it's always a given that T's are perfectly rational, reasonable beings.

I wonder, Peaches, if there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy happening for you. You expect your T to abandon you (as you have experienced in other relationships), perhaps leading her in part to suggesting another T who might be better versed in working with individuals with abandonment issues.

When I read the title of your thread, I also wonder what it is that you envision "expressing emotions" working toward? If it was "working," what would be happening? What would be different?

I tend to be sensitive to rejection too. And I know that there are times when my emotion brain hijacks my rational brain and sets off warning bells that rejection is about to happen. When those bells go off, I'm more focused on putting out the fire than to determine its cause. But, sometimes, there isn't actually a fire, and I've dumped all of my resources into taking care of something that doesn't exist.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's necessarily your T's job to avoid doing/saying things that will trigger abandonment fears. That would be like her trying to help you put out those non-existent fires (or prevent them in the first place, I guess). But it seems it would be useful for her to help you to learn that where there is smoke, there's not always fire.

(Probably I should skip the metaphors. It's hard for me to make them completely coherent!)

[blur]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Am I wrong in thinking that she is having doubts about our work together, and wants me to go elsewhere? In her email, she seems to be denying that she feels that way, and that sounds angry with me for "assuming" and "misinterpreting."

I'm not sure what to do. . .

hi peaches. yes, i think you are wrong in thinking she is having doubts about you working together and wants you to go elsewhere. here's why i think that: you asked her and she said no. pretty simple, huh? i know you are getting triggered but i think the question is why do you believe you know better than your T what she is thinking and feeling and why are you now asking us, after she has told you you are wrong, to confirm those suspicions of yours rather than believing her.

if your T really wanted you to go elsewhere she'd terminate with you and refer you out. i doubt she has problems with assertion and has probably done that with other clients. yet, she goes out of her way to see you when she has modified her practice. it seems obvious to me that she wants to continue seeing you as a client.

just wanted to add that i find it interesting that you titled this post 'expressing emotions' when i don't see you expressing any emotions. i do see you confronting your T with what you think. i see negative perceptions on your part but not any feelings in what you wrote. you did though tell her what you thought her negative feelings were. like anne said, maybe you are perceiving a poor response from your T because you are telling her what her negative feelings are when she doesn't even feel these things.

Anyway, she brought it up again last week, after I reminded her of somethign she'd done in the past that was hurtful to me. So it is making me feel like (1) I can't tell her when I'm upset with her because she will want me to switch t's, and (2) It also makes me feel like maybe she is trying to get rid of me. When she brought it up last week, she prefaced it by saying, "I know you hate it when I bring this up, but I'm going to anyway." So she definitely knows it's a trigger for me.

rather than projecting your fear and doubts onto your T why not say something like this where you do express some emotion:

i feel anxious & afraid when i want to tell you i am upset with you because i believe i will be told by you to switch Ts.

you probably already know about that little formula for making "i" statements and expressing your feelings but in case you don't here it is:

i feel ___________ when ______________ because i _______________________.

after the word "feel" you must put in an actual feeling like scared, anxious, angry, confused, etc. after "when" you say what the circumstances are when you feel this way and lastly after "because" you are expressing why you believe this is happening. it is really helpful in both taking responsibility for our feelings and distinguishing between thoughts and feelings.

while i haven't read it yet i believe the book nonviolent communication goes into greater detail about all this. maybe that would be something helpful to look at.

[peaches100]

Hi Tinyrabbit,
I took your advice and talked to her this past session. She told me that the reason she has suggested that I consider another therapist is because I’ve told her on several occasions that she has done something that has been “retraumatizing” to me.
This is true. What has happened a few times is that she has allowed discussions of trauma (or trauma work) to flood me emotionally without offering enough help to cope with it – essentially, I went away feeling like I’ve gone through the trauma all over again, feeling extremely depressed, and needing 2-3 days to recuperate. In each case, it felt like a replay of my childhood because whenever I was going through a terribly hard trial and needed help/comfort, my mom would ignore it and look the other way.
So my t said that she felt very bad that I had these retraumatizing events in therapy with her. She felt responsible that she didn’t provide what I needed at the time to prevent that from happening. She wants me to feel better, not feel worse! So ethically, if therapy with her appears to be damaging me in some way, she is legally and ethically required to remind me that there might be other t’s with more experience and skill who might do a better job working with my issues. She said she does not want me to find a new therapist, but she must remind me that it’s my option to do so. I understand now and realize she doesn’t want to get rid of me. She just wonders at times if she has enough skill to help me.

Hi Skysblue,
You’re right, I did make an assumption. I assumed that my t didn’t want to work with me anymore. But really, she was just concerned about whether she was doing a good enough job with me, and if a different t would be able to help me more. I just freaked out because any mention of going to see somebody else sets off my abandonment alarms big time!!!

Hi Granite,
You honed in on an important point. . . My disappointment in t because of repeated experiences of feeling overwhelmed in therapy, and experiencing t’s reluctance to offer more comfort as an abandonment. I think you are correct in saying that this probably has not been worked through to a resolution. T has told me that in the future, she will try to do a better job of gauging how I am doing, and not let me get flooded. But I think that, after it happening several times, I’m pretty skittish. Also, she has let me know that I can ask her to sit next to me or hold my hand if needed. But my shame about needing it, and my knowing that she has been reluctant to do it in the past because of my SA as a child, I don’t feel comfortable to ask her to do that, even if I need it. The reason is because I always felt like, with my mom, that she only did things for me out of obligation, and not because she wanted to. So with t, I just can’t ask for something that I know she is/was reluctant about doing. I would feel like I was manipulating her to get comfort, and I would hate myself for that. But it kind of creates a standstill when it comes to doing trauma work. . .I can’t handle the emotional overwhelm myself, but I don’t want to ask her to help me more. I guess I just need more coping skills first.

Hi Pbutton,
I realized after I sent her the message that I was focusing too much on how I thought she felt, rather than my own feelings. I have such a bad habit of what my t calls “mindreading!” It is so ingrained in me. I know it would be better for me to just ask my t in person if she wants me to go elsewhere. But I am afraid to ask and afraid to hear what she says, so I don’t ask. Instead, I go away seeming like things are fine. But then later, it still bother me. So I try to figure the situation out by analyzing things my t said or did. I end up making assumptions which I am sure are true. And then, feeling horrible about it, I bring it up in an email to her. By then, she says I have created a whole story that is just not true. But I just don’t see it at all when I am doing that. I think I am understanding how things are! It’s frustrating! Usually, it is not until I see my t again, and we talk about it, that I find out why she said what she did.