[rainbow8]

When I was crying about the thought of leaving my T, I wrote that I was grieving for endings that come too soon.

With Moms and T's, it's always too soon....

Just wondered what others think about this statement. From a general perspective, not about me please. I thought it was a good beginning for an article about transference.

[growlithing]

I'm confused. Maybe this is because I do not have a good relationship with the woman who calls herself my mother but has really done nothing motherly to claim that title. So maybe that is what is confusing me.

I thought that good moms don't leave. I guess in death? Are you relating leaving your T to the death of your mother? I thought the idea is that the feeling of being cared for is supposed to continue on when she's not there.

I also thought maternal transference only happened when there wasn't a good relationship with your mother although I guess that doesn't make sense. You can project positive stuff I guess.

I don't know. I probably shouldn't even respond to this when I don't have a good relationship with my mother. I'm just trying to understand.

[anilam]

I love my mum. It would never occur to me to compare the grief of her passing away to therapy termination. Not even to Ts dying.
Maybe it's your thing RB? Why you're that hooked up on T and upset about terminating?

[CantExplain]

It was very painful for my relationship with Madame T to fail in exactly the same way as my relationship with my mother. Here we go again. What have I gained by doing it twice?

But maybe my next relationship will be better!

[A Red Panda]

The "good relationship" with my mom ended when I was about three. So yes, it ended way too soon. It's upsetting if I think about it too much. I went through a similar loss with my older siblings and extended family and that was all done and over by the time I was 9. They all hurt the same.

Whenever I've lost other people over the years, whenever they've left... it brings those feelings back up. It hurts and it makes me feel a bit angry and confused, because I don't know what I did to be rejected so often and so easily.

The ones that aren't family hurt the most now, because I'm more numb to the family stuff by now. And I can go "well... I didn't choose my family, but I did think I made a good choice with X." which makes things easier with the family... but harder with friends.

[Asiablue]

I think it's about saying to yourself " yes, endings are painful, whether the ending is thru death or end of a relationship, but i still have me, i'm still in possession of myself, i will be ok."

I struggle terribly with endings of any sort but i think it's because i haven't taken real possession of myself, i'm not enough for myself yet. I don't believe in my ability to survive the feelings of painful endings. But what i have realised this year is that ending are a natural part of life and they will come regardless of how i feel about them, so now i'm trying to tell myself that i will be ok. It will hurt but i will survive it, like i have all the other times people have walked away or things have come to a natural conclusion.

I try to remember that people who come into my life and back out again all have something to teach me, good or bad. And i try to take some sort of learning from my time with them.

I wouldn't begin to compare the loss of a therapist to the deep grief and loss that comes with the death of a loved one. Not even close to the same category for me. Yes, I love my T, but he's not family. He hasn't been in my life since birth. I don't have the family ties with him. When T and I part ways, T isn't dying. We're just going to move on to different stages in our lives. Death doesn't allow that other person that option.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

It was very painful for my relationship with Madame T to fail in exactly the same way as my relationship with my mother. Here we go again. What have I gained by doing it twice?

There are times when I observe myself-- if I have enough self-awareness-- literally putting others into a "role", usually that of my abusive father. My T says that people do this all the time, but mostly we do it unconsciously. It has been very freeing to realize when I'm doing this, and to stop-- to allow people to be themselves, without the role constraints I try to box them into. I find people are usually nothing like my father, once I stop treating them as if they are.

Shouldn't the similarities in the "failing" of both relationships suggest that you had a substantial part to play in what happened-- you are, after all, the common denominator. Instead of looking at that, it seems like you engage in a lot of effort to convince yourself that it was your T's fault.

To Rainbow-- I think the same principle might apply to whatever is going on with your T right now. If you have cast her in the role of "the mother who abandons me", then of course it's going to feel really bad when you end therapy.

I would compare the end of therapy to a college graduation. Of course it is sad to leave behind all the good times, the support, the ability to grow and learn, but the real world calls. Be happy with what you've achieved and move into your life, taking the care your T has given you and the lessons with you. I'm sure you'll be fine. If you're not-- many T's take Medicare, and I think the co-payment is $10 or something like that.

[venusss]

As somebody who lost one of the parents at very young age... I find this bit far-fetched.

For me what is sad about deaths, especially premature ones is not that "I don't have the person in my life anymore" but because something ended with them. They mighta do more things in their lifes. They carried memories that are now gone. Oftentimes I wish I had my grandmother or father or other relatives around to ask them something. But they are not there.

While i miss the living that drifted away from me, I know they are there, living their lives....

Imho, one should not take death or partings personally. As in "I lost somebody". You never owned the person in first place. You lose a connection, sure... but there is a greater picture to look at.

[sweepy62]

my relationship with my mom was all over the place , i was neither loved properly, I know I was given alot of mixed messages and no nurturing, lots of emotional and verbal abuse going on.

Cant compare that to my t though, because I am not looking for nurturing or touch with my t nor am I looking for a mom figure with my t, that would be too scary for me, at least at a concious level, maybe I am doing it at an unconcious level who knows.

[gayleggg]

Nothing can compare with the loss of my mother, even though she lived a long life, I was not ready to lose her. I had a therapist that I loved dearly but her death would never create the hole in my soul that losing my mother(best friend) did.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by growlithing

I'm confused. Maybe this is because I do not have a good relationship with the woman who calls herself my mother but has really done nothing motherly to claim that title. So maybe that is what is confusing me.

I thought that good moms don't leave. I guess in death? Are you relating leaving your T to the death of your mother? I thought the idea is that the feeling of being cared for is supposed to continue on when she's not there.

I also thought maternal transference only happened when there wasn't a good relationship with your mother although I guess that doesn't make sense. You can project positive stuff I guess.

I don't know. I probably shouldn't even respond to this when I don't have a good relationship with my mother. I'm just trying to understand.

I"m sorry I was confusing to you. Yes, I meant a Mom's death.

Originally Posted by anilam

I love my mum. It would never occur to me to compare the grief of her passing away to therapy termination. Not even to Ts dying.
Maybe it's your thing RB? Why you're that hooked up on T and upset about terminating?

When I thought I had to end suddenly, which turned out not to be the case, I cried very intensely. I think some must have been about my Mom, not just my T.

Originally Posted by CantExplain

It was very painful for my relationship with Madame T to fail in exactly the same way as my relationship with my mother. Here we go again. What have I gained by doing it twice?

But maybe my next relationship will be better!

I think we have somewhat similar feelings about Ts, CantExplain.

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

The "good relationship" with my mom ended when I was about three. So yes, it ended way too soon. It's upsetting if I think about it too much. I went through a similar loss with my older siblings and extended family and that was all done and over by the time I was 9. They all hurt the same.

Whenever I've lost other people over the years, whenever they've left... it brings those feelings back up. It hurts and it makes me feel a bit angry and confused, because I don't know what I did to be rejected so often and so easily.

The ones that aren't family hurt the most now, because I'm more numb to the family stuff by now. And I can go "well... I didn't choose my family, but I did think I made a good choice with X." which makes things easier with the family... but harder with friends.

Thanks, Panda.

Originally Posted by Asiablue

I think it's about saying to yourself " yes, endings are painful, whether the ending is thru death or end of a relationship, but i still have me, i'm still in possession of myself, i will be ok."

I struggle terribly with endings of any sort but i think it's because i haven't taken real possession of myself, i'm not enough for myself yet. I don't believe in my ability to survive the feelings of painful endings. But what i have realised this year is that ending are a natural part of life and they will come regardless of how i feel about them, so now i'm trying to tell myself that i will be ok. It will hurt but i will survive it, like i have all the other times people have walked away or things have come to a natural conclusion.

I try to remember that people who come into my life and back out again all have something to teach me, good or bad. And i try to take some sort of learning from my time with them.

Thank you, Asia. It's a learning process, and endings are sad, but that's the way of life. I agree. It's just hard.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

I wouldn't begin to compare the loss of a therapist to the deep grief and loss that comes with the death of a loved one. Not even close to the same category for me. Yes, I love my T, but he's not family. He hasn't been in my life since birth. I don't have the family ties with him. When T and I part ways, T isn't dying. We're just going to move on to different stages in our lives. Death doesn't allow that other person that option.

That's why I assume some, or a lot, is transference, when grieving for a T.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

There are times when I observe myself-- if I have enough self-awareness-- literally putting others into a "role", usually that of my abusive father. My T says that people do this all the time, but mostly we do it unconsciously. It has been very freeing to realize when I'm doing this, and to stop-- to allow people to be themselves, without the role constraints I try to box them into. I find people are usually nothing like my father, once I stop treating them as if they are.

Shouldn't the similarities in the "failing" of both relationships suggest that you had a substantial part to play in what happened-- you are, after all, the common denominator. Instead of looking at that, it seems like you engage in a lot of effort to convince yourself that it was your T's fault.

To Rainbow-- I think the same principle might apply to whatever is going on with your T right now. If you have cast her in the role of "the mother who abandons me", then of course it's going to feel really bad when you end therapy.

I would compare the end of therapy to a college graduation. Of course it is sad to leave behind all the good times, the support, the ability to grow and learn, but the real world calls. Be happy with what you've achieved and move into your life, taking the care your T has given you and the lessons with you. I'm sure you'll be fine. If you're not-- many T's take Medicare, and I think the co-payment is $10 or something like that.

Thanks. I was getting at the transference feelings, of loss and grief, not the practical aspect. Your post is something to think about--T as mother who abandons me. Maybe...

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

As somebody who lost one of the parents at very young age... I find this bit far-fetched.

For me what is sad about deaths, especially premature ones is not that "I don't have the person in my life anymore" but because something ended with them. They mighta do more things in their lifes. They carried memories that are now gone. Oftentimes I wish I had my grandmother or father or other relatives around to ask them something. But they are not there.

While i miss the living that drifted away from me, I know they are there, living their lives....

Imho, one should not take death or partings personally. As in "I lost somebody". You never owned the person in first place. You lose a connection, sure... but there is a greater picture to look at.

Wise words. Yes, you lose a connection but there's more. I guess grief is difficult for me, and losses cause me to think about things. I was trying to explore the transference angle.

Originally Posted by sweepy62

my relationship with my mom was all over the place , i was neither loved properly, I know I was given alot of mixed messages and no nurturing, lots of emotional and verbal abuse going on.

Cant compare that to my t though, because I am not looking for nurturing or touch with my t nor am I looking for a mom figure with my t, that would be too scary for me, at least at a concious level, maybe I am doing it at an unconcious level who knows.

Thanks, sweepy.

[RTerroni]

I don't really have strong feelings for any of my family members so when they die I really don't feel anything. I felt nothing when any of my grandparents passed away.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by gayleggg

Nothing can compare with the loss of my mother, even though she lived a long life, I was not ready to lose her. I had a therapist that I loved dearly but her death would never create the hole in my soul that losing my mother(best friend) did.

Thank you for your perspective. I somehow relate Ts and Moms, as I posted. I guess it's personal for me after all. I cried so much when I thought I had to end, and cried when I ended with my first T. I cried MORE than I cried when my Mom died.

This is something to talk about more in my therapy, as usual.

[SallyBrown]

I've have the curse/blessing of experiencing lots of losses throughout life, though I am lucky to still have my parents, whom I love. Some of my grad school friends were shocked at the number of funerals/memorials I had been to by the time I was in my 20's.

I was thinking hard about your question, and found that the words I don't relate to in it are "too soon". And I think I can see a parallel there with how I often feel about others who are less experienced with loss, or just having a really hard time with it.

I rarely think of someone as having gone "too soon". For sure, I grieve the loss of someone who was very young, or had small children, or was a child himself (truly horrible), probably more than someone who lived to 90. As Venus said, it's the loss of possibility that is so crushing there. But somehow, "soonness" isn't a part of it for me.

I think having to lose a lot of people I love at almost regular intervals starting as a child, it's really a routine part of life to me. People die. People die expectedly and unexpectedly. People leave other people behind. It happens, and the question of "when" seems almost... like it's missing the point. "When" could be anytime. I could die today. Don't know. Hope not.

I often find myself getting frustrated with people who do not live as if anyone they love could die at any time. As if there will always be time to say "I love you" later. As if there will always be time to say "I forgive you" later. Or "thank you". Or "I missed you". Or "I'm sorry". Not that these things should be said insincerely, but that when they are meant and withheld, it's like a scar on the emotional universe that becomes permanent when the opportunity to say them is taken away.

When my grandmother was dying, my family and I were with her in the hospital for the majority of the first day where it was clear she was going soon, and then we went home to sleep (except for my dad). My brother asked me why we weren't staying -- shouldn't we be there until the end? I asked him if he had said everything to her that he wanted to say. He said no. I told him to get in the car and go back to the hospital, and not hold anything back. Because she was dying, and sitting by her would not make up for anything left unsaid. And even if we were there, she could very well pass while he was taking a bathroom break.

This is what your question makes me think about, in my own life. It makes me wonder why you think it's "too soon", and what you envision getting out of having more time. Not that we don't all want more time with our loved ones. But we also owe it to them to let them go, and live our own lives as they are, not as they could have been.

My therapist was the father I never had. I lost him abruptly and it didn't end well at all. I am grieving terribly. It's not like a death grief, but it is grief and should be treated as such. It's horrible and I know this might not relate to mom issues, but I am dealing with horrible loss and grief and sadness and pain and blaming myself and wondering if any of the work we did together was worth anything. It's awful.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by SallyBrown

I've have the curse/blessing of experiencing lots of losses throughout life, though I am lucky to still have my parents, whom I love. Some of my grad school friends were shocked at the number of funerals/memorials I had been to by the time I was in my 20's.

I was thinking hard about your question, and found that the words I don't relate to in it are "too soon". And I think I can see a parallel there with how I often feel about others who are less experienced with loss, or just having a really hard time with it.

I rarely think of someone as having gone "too soon". For sure, I grieve the loss of someone who was very young, or had small children, or was a child himself (truly horrible), probably more than someone who lived to 90. As Venus said, it's the loss of possibility that is so crushing there. But somehow, "soonness" isn't a part of it for me.

I think having to lose a lot of people I love at almost regular intervals starting as a child, it's really a routine part of life to me. People die. People die expectedly and unexpectedly. People leave other people behind. It happens, and the question of "when" seems almost... like it's missing the point. "When" could be anytime. I could die today. Don't know. Hope not.

I often find myself getting frustrated with people who do not live as if anyone they love could die at any time. As if there will always be time to say "I love you" later. As if there will always be time to say "I forgive you" later. Or "thank you". Or "I missed you". Or "I'm sorry". Not that these things should be said insincerely, but that when they are meant and withheld, it's like a scar on the emotional universe that becomes permanent when the opportunity to say them is taken away.

When my grandmother was dying, my family and I were with her in the hospital for the majority of the first day where it was clear she was going soon, and then we went home to sleep (except for my dad). My brother asked me why we weren't staying -- shouldn't we be there until the end? I asked him if he had said everything to her that he wanted to say. He said no. I told him to get in the car and go back to the hospital, and not hold anything back. Because she was dying, and sitting by her would not make up for anything left unsaid. And even if we were there, she could very well pass while he was taking a bathroom break.

This is what your question makes me think about, in my own life. It makes me wonder why you think it's "too soon", and what you envision getting out of having more time. Not that we don't all want more time with our loved ones. But we also owe it to them to let them go, and live our own lives as they are, not as they could have been.

Thank you for sharing, Sally. I'm sorry you've gone through so many losses. Your perspective on it is helpful to me. I think, in my case, I still regret "checking out" when my Mom was sick and dying. I wasn't there emotionally because I couldn't deal with it. Looking back, I see myself almost like dissociating through her last months. She didn't talk to me, and I didn't talk to her. I didn't have words to even say "I love you." I didn't talk about death and neither did she. For a mother and daughter who were so close, it seems weird. I wish I had been in therapy then, to get help with how to have closure with a dying mother when I didn't know how.

I've written letters to her in my therapy, and written answers back. That helps, but doesn't take away from the way I handled her death back then. One of my Ts said that my Mom could have initiated a conversation. It wasn't my fault. It is just the way it was. I was 33 with a child, my Mom's only grandchild. We knew this was coming; she was sick for about 3 years. My family did the best we could, in the way we could. I just wish I had told her "I love you". I don't know if she said it to me either. I remember how much it hurt for me to be in the room with her, and I didn't know what to say. I wasn't ready to see her like that. I wanted her to still be around and be a Mom and grandma, and a great grandma like my Dad was. It's really sad for me.

So, the phrase I wrote is significant for me, in my own way. With Ts and Moms, it's always too soon.... I know that Blur will say it ties in with my other statement: "If I stay in therapy forever, it's like my mother never died." I think I cried because T is like my Mom. She always praises my artwork and my writing; she is there for me, she says nice things to me, she is kind to me, she smiles at me, she cares about my life--all the details like my Mom did. When I quit seeing my T, it's the loss of 2 very important people in my life, not one. That's how I feel, but intellectually I know it's not quite like that. When I wrote those two statements, they came from my heart, in a deep place, not from my brain. They aren't meant to be logical. I can see it's personal, not general. It's MY stuff, not anyone else's. It's okay if no one understands. Your perspectives are your own. We're each different.

Originally Posted by roseleigh7

My therapist was the father I never had. I lost him abruptly and it didn't end well at all. I am grieving terribly. It's not like a death grief, but it is grief and should be treated as such. It's horrible and I know this might not relate to mom issues, but I am dealing with horrible loss and grief and sadness and pain and blaming myself and wondering if any of the work we did together was worth anything. It's awful.

I'm very sorry that you are still grieving the loss of your T. Please don't blame yourself. It's not your fault. I would think that a lot of the work you did in therapy was worthwhile. I'm sorry you don't have an opportunity to discuss your feelings and questions with your former T. Is there any chance at all of doing that?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

Shouldn't the similarities in the "failing" of both relationships suggest that you had a substantial part to play in what happened-- you are, after all, the common denominator. Instead of looking at that, it seems like you engage in a lot of effort to convince yourself that it was your T's fault.

I don't see how blaming myself would be any better.
I worked harder on my relationship with Madame T than with any other relationship in my life.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thank you for sharing, Sally. I'm sorry you've gone through so many losses. Your perspective on it is helpful to me. I think, in my case, I still regret "checking out" when my Mom was sick and dying. I wasn't there emotionally because I couldn't deal with it. Looking back, I see myself almost like dissociating through her last months. She didn't talk to me, and I didn't talk to her. I didn't have words to even say "I love you." I didn't talk about death and neither did she. For a mother and daughter who were so close, it seems weird. I wish I had been in therapy then, to get help with how to have closure with a dying mother when I didn't know how.

I've written letters to her in my therapy, and written answers back. That helps, but doesn't take away from the way I handled her death back then. One of my Ts said that my Mom could have initiated a conversation. It wasn't my fault. It is just the way it was. I was 33 with a child, my Mom's only grandchild. We knew this was coming; she was sick for about 3 years. My family did the best we could, in the way we could. I just wish I had told her "I love you". I don't know if she said it to me either. I remember how much it hurt for me to be in the room with her, and I didn't know what to say. I wasn't ready to see her like that. I wanted her to still be around and be a Mom and grandma, and a great grandma like my Dad was. It's really sad for me.

So, the phrase I wrote is significant for me, in my own way. With Ts and Moms, it's always too soon.... I know that Blur will say it ties in with my other statement: "If I stay in therapy forever, it's like my mother never died." I think I cried because T is like my Mom. She always praises my artwork and my writing; she is there for me, she says nice things to me, she is kind to me, she smiles at me, she cares about my life--all the details like my Mom did. When I quit seeing my T, it's the loss of 2 very important people in my life, not one. That's how I feel, but intellectually I know it's not quite like that. When I wrote those two statements, they came from my heart, in a deep place, not from my brain. They aren't meant to be logical. I can see it's personal, not general. It's MY stuff, not anyone else's. It's okay if no one understands. Your perspectives are your own. We're each different.

This seems very insightful to me, Rainbow. I wish I had a way to tell you how to process your mom's passing and the regrets you have surrounding it, and it's not really surprising, in light of what you said, that it's coming up again now with leaving T. They might not BE the same, but the feelings that are getting dredged up are the same.

When I terminated with my T last year, I had actually just experienced two deaths in my family -- actually, my T informed me he had decided we would not meet anymore on the same day that I found out my great-uncle (who was basically my surrogate grandfather) was dying. That was a crappy day.

Anyway, my great-uncle was a really good man. Just a really great guy. And he was over 90, and it was time for him to go, but I was very sad. And his passing made me think of my actual grandfather's death. I did not know my grandfather well; he walked out on my dad and grandmother when my dad was little, and never really got his act together. Most of the time when he called, it was in a drunken rage. I remember when he died, I was just angry and upset. Not because I missed him. But because it wasn't fair to my dad, that we had to go out to another state and take care of his dad's stuff because my grandfather had no other family, not fair for my dad to have never had a father that loved him and wanted what was best for him. My great-uncle couldn't be more of a contrast -- that guy saw everything through, and I knew how he felt about me, and he knew how I felt about him. No loose ends. My actual grandfather was a hot mess of loose ends.

I wrote to my T about all of this, because terminating with T really WAS a time of grief. It wasn't the same kind of grief, but I realized I was angry at my T in the same way I was angry at my grandfather. We were parting on terms that were so unnecessarily bitter. I knew I'd be very upset when my great-uncle finally passed on, but I was surprised at just how ok I was. I would have liked him to be there for the birth of my first child, but it was ok. He knew I felt that way. I knew he would have liked that. It was ok. So all of this really did resurface -- I mean, obviously, my great-uncle's death happened right at the same time, but what was remarkable was how both events made me think of my grandfather's death over 13 years before... one because it was just like it, one because it was nothing like it.

Just wanted to say I don't think you need to be logical about this, or that you need to say it exactly the right way. It's not really a logical thing.

ETA: I hope you know that no one really knows how to deal with death while it's happening. I know you feel a lot of pain and regret over what happened with your mom, but I hope you are more able to forgive yourself now for not really knowing what to do or how to deal. Nobody really does.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thank you for your perspective. I somehow relate Ts and Moms, as I posted. I guess it's personal for me after all. I cried so much when I thought I had to end, and cried when I ended with my first T. I cried MORE than I cried when my Mom died.

This is something to talk about more in my therapy, as usual.

Me too! We feel what we feel.

With Mum, I lost the relationship twenty years before she died. To me, losing the relationship hurts more than losing the person.