i was reading something last night about transference. about how you start therapy and then you start to feel attached. and then transference starts. and then transference neurosis starts. and then that starts to get worked through.

there was stuff on how interpretation is supposed to help the working through.

and about how interpretation isn't a cognitive / rational endevour, it is about linking the affect with understanding the origins of it and so it has an affective component too...

(crappy crap crap just my luck)

but i am becoming sceptical about the utility of transference neurosis.

whats it for???????????????????????????????

make it go away

:-(
:-(
:-(

[MisfitAmongstMisfits]

....was just wondering if someone could explain how to browse for a topic....because i dont understand any of what alexandra_k said about transference?? ...and dont want to make you all have to repeat your info.....but i need to know what that word means to understand what the question is?....sorry...

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/transference.html

http://fox.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a..._neurosis.html

http://fox.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a...ference_t.html

(the last two links contain a link to an 'index' which is a real goldmine of definitions IMHO)

[MisfitAmongstMisfits]

thanks (((((alexandra_k)))) that helped.....i dont feel that happen at all with me and my t...ever...like we have real strict boundaries...is that bad??

and now i'm probably getting carried away but here is a diagram of the therapy (pscyhodynamic) process:

http://fox.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a.../bk43four.html

and here is the first page to the online book:

http://fox.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/psyhthr.html

how long have you been seeing your t?

how do you feel about your t?

(some varieties of therapy try to not encourage transference and there are a lot of therapists who don't like dealing with transference so even if you don't have this it is probably okay)

[sunrise]

Well, holy c**p alexandra! I knew I had transference, but I had never heard of transference neurosis. Now I have to worry about having this too. I sure hope I don't.... When does transference cross the line into neurosis? Alexandra, maybe transference neurosis has no "utility." It just happens sometimes as an outgrowth of the analytic process and is actually not useful. It isn't necessarily "for" anything. It just exists.

i hadn't heard of transference neurosis until last night either. but now it is making more sense to me why my t keeps saying things like 'i am NOT your parents' etc etc etc.

i'm trying to curb this...

but it doesn't seem to be helping. and i think... it is turning a bit nasty too :-( not in a dangerous way (an objectively dangerous way that is) but just in a back off mr. kind of way...

i think transference neurosis is just an intense transference response. most people grant that transference is a feature of most of our relationships. transference neurosis is when the therapist becomes the most emotionally significant person in your life. can lead to obsessional thoughts or very frequent fantasies or whatever.

what i was reading last night regarded transference neurosis to be necessary for a successful working through. but then they were talking about 3-5 sessions weekly and the therapists acting as a 'blank screen' in order to intentionally build the transference into a neurosis...

other therapists try and work through transferences as they arise and attempt to be more interactive and have less sessions in order to intentionally try and curb the transference developing into a neurosis.

i guess that even with those who regard transference neurosis to be necessary there is a considerable difference between obsessing a little and obsessing a lot. a difference between regressing in sessions (at at some points out of sessions) and really regressing across the board and disintegrating... though... some people think it is fine to hospitalise clients for a few weeks while the worst of the working through is done...

ak...

i'm fairly sure this is NOT going to be happening with me.

this is partly why i was concerned about more frequent sessions. we are going to comprimise: see each other every friday and every second tuesday. see whether that makes things better or worse for me.

i'm a bit afraid because w. isn't thinking so kindly of him... and k is feeling really dependent and she won't stop crying because she wants to meet him... but there is no way w is going to let that happen and if he gets too close j is gonna start screaming...

ak...

:-(

[MisfitAmongstMisfits]

been seeing the t for over four yrs. now.....i guess i feel ok about her....a bit intimidated to be honest...dont know why....oh, and so its ok if its not happening too...thanks....sorry if i interupted the thread....

yeah. i'm fairly sure that most therapists are perfectly okay with it not happening.

but...

dare i ask...

whether you remember feeling intimidated as a kid???

(p.s., you aren' interrupting, you are participating)

nice to have you here

:-)

[MisfitAmongstMisfits]

yes I do remember feeling that way as a kid...i was always kind of easily intimidated..

[sidony]

Cool thread! I like the diagram and the technical difficulties. It's interesting. I don't think people will necessarily be aware of transference though (might be going on even if you think it's not!). I wouldn't worry about that part of it. Just my opinion.

Sidony

[(JD)]

IMO, and for CBT, transference is necessary for good therapy to happen.

alex, that your T calls it to your attention means you have progressed in the realtionship. I think at first, getting to the meat of the problems is important, and when the transference is noticed by the T, it's just noted by the T.

As one progresses in therapy and is ready, the T will call attention to when you are treating the T as though they were another person in your life(transference.) Once you begin to realize those thoughts and feelings, for all the ppl in your life, you're on the home stretch, imo, to begin healing and working on your own boundaries etc and other's boundaries, and how it all affected you.

TC

[OliviaC]

Informative thread! Thanks for the links, Alexandra. I have only been seeing current T for a couple of months. I know I am forming an attachment to her but at the same time feel intimidated.

I am so sure that if she gets to know me very well she won't like me at all; which probably is a very common feeling. So I have all these things I want to tell her and then get there and chicken out! And, she is going out of her way to seem non-threatening, so I guess it's just my nature to be this way. I like her approach though, as a cooler, more distant therapist does me no good at all - even more intimidation.

[Perna]

Transference happens in all relationships, it's just looked at and worked on in therapy. I don't think one can't change emotional behavior unless one can see what is going on in the first place; it's like the person who keeps picking the same rotten type of partners or friends, etc., doesn't seem to learn. Transference, to me, just helps one "get it."

[withit]

I had lots of strong transference issues with my former t, and she so competently and skillfully helped me work through them. We did psychodynamic work, I saw her twice a week, but eventually we pared it down to once a week and it was still very useful.
I am now seeing a new t, and after 3-4 sessions I was getting highly impatient about the fact that I did not see the development of a transference. But after session four I became aware of a mildly positive transference and that's when I knew that the neurotic negative transference was not far in coming. Sure enough, after session five I became aware of it. The reason I am so excited about it is because it is grist for the mill. I have learned via experience with my previous therapist that transference is how our deepest core issues get worked through and dissolved.

Transference is really important because the way you relate to people outside of T will mirror itself with your T. Your T can represent anyone to you. For example, if engage in a lot of black and white thinking and feeling, you may do the same with your T. But with your T, you will begin to learn that you can hold multiple feeling for him and he won't go anywhere. If you transfer anger onto your T, you will see that he won't react the same way someone else would. You can work through the anger and learn tons and tons of stuff about yourself. I transfer onto my T all the time. I even transfer myself onto T (telling him that he is frustrated with me, when I'm really frustrated at myself).

[Talulah]

http://www.drzur.com/cgi-bin/search....s=transference

I like these articles I found as well...

[sidony]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
i think transference neurosis is just an intense transference response. most people grant that transference is a feature of most of our relationships. transference neurosis is when the therapist becomes the most emotionally significant person in your life. can lead to obsessional thoughts or very frequent fantasies or whatever.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I know one woman (I promise it's not me here) who says she's in love with her therapist (she's very upset about that). Is that transference neurosis? If so, it sounds like it probably isn't too abnormal given how emotionally intense therapy can get.

Sidony

I'm pretty sure I have the neurotic transference going on. :-( but I haven't read the linked info yet.

Not with a t exactly... I have been corresponding online with someone who has a doctorate in psychology but who isn't a psychologist. Our corresponding was very much like therapy for a while. We've been writing for almost 2 years. It isn't like therapy at all now. She is the one who really pushed me to get into face-to-face therapy again. ... anyway I am still caught up in the transference and it is really hard to deal with.

The last t kept referring to it as an obsession, which I guess is right. They even talked and t said, What a sweet lady!... sigh. yes..

This person I'm attached to was so warm and soothing to me when we began writing that she became a mother figure to me. She became the mother I never had as well as the mother I fantasized about for hours and hours, all my childhood. How do I let that go?

Thing is, even though it causes me a lot of grief it also is a fulfilling experience. and it's hard sometimes to not respond to her in that way, but I am trying. She knows and is helpful about it.

I tried so hard to talk about this with that last t who didn't want to talk. I told her that I saw this person in a mothering way and that I didn't know what to do about it. ... She just called it an obsession, asked me if I "really" "need" this person (well, no.. YES!.. no.. YES!... oh, I guess not...no). lol. And then when I asked that t how I should address her (her business card has a nickname on it), she said, "Well, ' Dr. so-and-so'.... because of what happened with" the person I am so attached to. I felt like she thought I was judging me, afraid of me (!), disliking me right off.

Now the new t. I told her about it. I wasn't clear in my explanation that although we still correspond very frequently, it isn't like thearpy any more. She said something about that being 'hard to compete with' and it has me worried that she will expect me to stop writing to this person, but I won't. I can't. I tried. I couldn't.

Anyway. I am now going to go read about it.

Thanks for sharing the links!

Hey. Yeah, that sounds like transference to me. Seems that rational understanding (while helping a little) really isn't the answer... I guess I kinda knew that already... It is funny (strange not ha ha) because they used to say that transference couldn't / wouldn't develop online. That that was a downside of online / internet therapy. Seems they were wrong though, huh ;-) I've experienced intense transference responses to people online too. In a way maybe even more intense than anything I've experienced IRL because they are more of a blank screen (since you can't see them) and because it is safer for me too (with them all the way around the other side of the world and all).

Lol. I'm wondering if you mistook your last therapists meaning... When she said you could call her 'Dr'. Sounds like you get idealising transference. Calling her 'Dr' might have been intended to foster that ;-)

And with new t... I'm pretty sure she won't expect you to stop writing to this person.

I've heard about their being 'two types' of patients. A rough over-simplification, no doubt, but anyway, here goes: The first kind is prone to idealising transference and feels attached fairly quickly. The second kind doesn't seem to attach to the therapist, mostly because they are getting their attachments from elsewhere. Maybe she is worried that you won't attach to her because of the other person in your life.

Attachment takes time though. See how it goes :-) It might be easier to deal with the transference stuff with that other person with your t initially. That might kind of pave the way for later stuff.

yeah, it isn't that uncommon for people to think they love their therapists. or for people to think they hate their therapists lol. strong reactions either way.

but on the other hand it can take time to develop... really... i've read some stuff about it taking like 2 years or 4 years to develop in some cases (and that is in 3-5 times a week).

intimidation can be a transference response too...

i guess that however you feel about your therapist you can ask about when you felt like that in the past (who were the people you were responding to?) it might be the case that your t isn't doing what those other people were doing to you but you have come to think that people will behave that way because that is what you experienced in the past.

of course this isn't to say it is all in your head. most people acknowledge that transference responses typically have a reality based component to them (with respect to the t's behaviour) but... it is something to think about (and talk to t about) at any rate.

can you tell her you find her intimidating at times?

[withit]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:

can you tell her you find her intimidating at times?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I think talking to your t about your transference is key to resolving it.
Someone just told me that she is 'scared' of her therapist. I said to her that I think it's important to mention that to her t, it will help her move forward in therapy. She said she'd never tell her t this! I cannot see this woman making much progress in therapy, because the resolution of the transference cannot happen if she is unwilling to talk about it. Push yourself if that's what it takes, but by all means do tell your t when you are feeling scared/intimidated/discounted/disbelieved/etc. vis a vis the therapist.
A good t will attend to your self-disclosure with sensitivity and compassion.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sidony said:

I know one woman (I promise it's not me here) who says she's in love with her therapist (she's very upset about that). Is that transference neurosis? If so, it sounds like it probably isn't too abnormal given how emotionally intense therapy can get.

Sidony

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Not abnormal at all. Lots of people say that. It has a lot to do with the way some of us (hi) tend to idealize our therapists. It's hard not to experience that kind of transference when you have this idealistic view of someone that is giving you their complete attention and unconditional positive regard, one on one, for however long the session is. I would never consider myself "in love" with my therapist, but I know at this point, I am experiencing a level of transference that generates a feeling that goes well beyond what I've ever felt for someone before-- and I'm sure some of it is normal, it doesn't all have to be transference. I think if we have a good, deep relationship with our T's, there is going to be a level of emotion that's extremely powerful. Sometimes transference makes it even more so.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
and now i'm probably getting carried away but here is a diagram of the therapy (pscyhodynamic) process:

http://fox.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a.../bk43four.html

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
alexandra, I really liked this link with the triangles picture and especially the "legend" to the picture where it outlines the psychodynamic therapy process step by step. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I've heard about their being 'two types' of patients. A rough over-simplification, no doubt, but anyway, here goes: The first kind is prone to idealising transference and feels attached fairly quickly. The second kind doesn't seem to attach to the therapist, mostly because they are getting their attachments from elsewhere.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
For me, whether transference happened was dependent on the T, rather than the type of patient. I had almost immediate transference with my current T but never with my former counselor. I think maybe it is a function of how well you "click" with your T. I didn't have the bond with the counselor that I have now with T. I remember the session where T made his first transference interpretation. I loved it! I thought, how cool, a TI! I just sat in it and ate it up. I felt we had "arrived."

Positive vs. Negative transference: I have pretty much only positive with T. I think.... What are some examples of negative transference? I know I've never been angry with him. But what are some non-anger, negative transference examples? Maybe I have had those. Or maybe it is too soon for the negative. I have only been seeing him for 5 months.

I am not "in love" with my therapist, but I experience deep and powerful feelings of warmth and affection for him. It would not be a stretch to say I feel love for him. But I don't want to jump in bed with him or ride off into the sunset with him or anything. I'm OK with the way it is. It feels natural to me to feel this way about him, and I bet a number of his clients do.