i used to get this pain. still do sometimes. i knew it was psychological (mostly). they told me it was an emotion. i didn't believe them. emotions don't feel like that. or... they shouldn't.

that kind of pain is meant to be a narcissistic (ego) defence. against shame.

so... we were both right :-) it ISN'T an emotion. but it is a DEFENCE against one.

shame.

in the absence of affect regulation defences like projective identification and denial and repression etc are meant to defend against the intolerable.

shame.

makes sense to me.

tomorrow... i'm going to try and talk to my t about this.

maybe...

:-)

[jacq10]

i understand you perfectly.....sometimes shame is my shadow.......xxoxox pat

[Talulah]

I think you should go for it, if it's on your mind, there's no better time to bring it to session. You've already begun those wheels turning on it so they'll be nice and greased and ready......

Interested to hear how it goes....

by all means...........talk about it.............!!!!!!

[sunrise]

Shame is so hard, alexandra. If you feel able to bring it up with your T, I hope you will. It will only help to get it out.

Shame was by far the hardest for me to share with my T. The causative events were ones I blocked out of my memory for decades. Just poof, no recollection. Then wham, years later, I remember. T knew I wanted to unload but some sessions I would just sit there and be unable to. Eventually it came.

Good luck. I hope you get the Monday appointment.

sunny

i got the monday appointment :-)

though most of it was talking about my discussion with my friend... (the discussion that didn't go well). talked about different options with respect to MAKING community mental health come out and assess him and ways of communicating with his doctor while making it clear i'm PROVIDING and not SEEKING information.

then... it seemed kinda hard to change the topic really. i sorta tried... but i think he might have been feeling a bit badly about having brushed me off when i tried to talk about my friend before. i guess he didn't realise it was quite this bad.

i said i read the Schore book. he seemed really surprised. said he went to a workshop with shore a couple years back. that he had read a couple papers online. i said i couldn't really find anything online. that i got the book. then he made mumblings about how big the book was. i said 'i read it already'.

then he said 'our time is about up'. which means our time IS up. i said... 'that pain i had that they said was an emotion... he says it is a defence against shame'. kind of rushed... and he said 'what'? and i said it again. and he said 'who'? and i said 'schore. and it makes sense'. and he seemed kinda surprised. and i said 'its okay, i just wanted to say that' and then our time was up.

but i see him again on friday (four days).

so that is good :-)

he told me he found a couple papers online. when i find them i'll post links to them.

ta da!

there are three schore articles available from here (and a whole lot more besides)!

happy reading folks

http://www.trauma-pages.com/articles.php

(if people want to discuss them i would be up for that)

Thank you for posting the link! I've been reading the 2nd article-- very interesting!! It's helping me to make more sense about myself. Like this paragraph:

"Because early abuse negatively impacts the developing brain of these infants, it has enduring effects. There is extensive evidence that trauma in early life impairs the development of the capacities of maintaining interpersonal relationships, coping with stressful stimuli, and regulating emotion"....... it's also interesting about how they've observed dissociating in infants. No wonder it's as automatic as breathing for some of us.

I've been told by a much older sister that when she was at home I as an infant, desperately clung to her-- she was my "safe zone"-- but she was in highschool and moved far away right after she graduated.
I struggle with relationships to this day. -- When I was little I was "in my own mind" all the time..... no friends at all--(explains my "not so polished" social skills ) it was safer to be alone-- one can't be hurt when they're alone, the problem is-- it can be very lonely.

Hey, that's great you got to meet with T. and that you'll be seeing him again real soon. I'm there with you in spirit- -- hoping this one will be the one that really "clicks".

mandy

[Fuzzybear]

hey. yeah, the articles turned out to be longer than i had supposed! in his book he is quite clear when he is going to be talking about neurobiological processes and when he is going to be talking about psychodynamic / developmental psychology processes. he does this so that people can avoid the neurobiology and still follow things along. he doesn't do this so much in these articles so i found parts of them incomprehensible though there is the odd thing that resonates. i think he talks more about the psychodynamic / developmental psychology processes in the book. he doesn't talk about trauma in the book particularly, though. and he doesn't really talk about dissociation (or disorganised attachment) in the book either. a lot of the neurobiology is well over my head... i think i get the general gist of sympathetic / parasympathetic arousal and neural pathways between limbic and orbitofrontal areas i don't really get the gist of dopamine and serotonin pathways or the more finegrained anatomical detail etc.

i'm glad you got something out of it.

i've been rethinking the 'shame' interpretation on the basis of these articles... i'm not sure what i think right now...

i mentioned to one of my supervisors today that i was getting interested in modern psychodynamic theory and its relationship to cognitive psychology. he looked less than thrilled. lol. still... he looked less than thrilled when i suggested the broad topic i'm doing now ;-)

trouble is that this will have to go down on the 'one day' list as i have about 4 different things i'm working on now with associated deadlines...

a few worries i have with Schore:

- he is dealing with western people. i'm not sure how these findings relate to other cultures where people are raised more communally. e.g., maori culture where infants do not have attachment relationships to their mother. it might be the case that they develop attachment relationships to other people in the community... or it might be possible that more than one person can be attached to...

- if he mentions 'critical period' one more time i have an urge to SCREAM AT HIM. he says he talks about critical period because he MEANS critical period (in the sense that if you don't have the relevant input before the critical time then one simply can't process the relevant information) but then he says he doesn't really mean critical period, or he means critical period in some new special sense where input after the critical period (i.e., in therapy) can teach one to process the relevant information.

basically... he doesn't properly acknowledge neural plasticity until his section on treatment. i think that this is because he is torn between seeing insecure attachments as a major health problem (hence we should intervene early) and between seeing adults as benefiting from psychotherapy (hence neural plasticity makes a bit of a mockery of the notion of a critical period with respect to attachment relationships).

hrm.

in the book he says that ALL psychopathology is a problem with right hemisphere / affective functioning... that is a very bold claim.

on the upside... it is some neurobiological (and psychodynamic) support for my novel theory of delusions (where delusions are a problem with affective processing and hence they are not irrational beliefs (they are true expressions of emotional experience and then as attention becomes focused on the experience - like what can happen with intense pain - the appearance / reality distinction becomes lost).

i don't like it :-(

i thought i had it worked out. shame. that was what it was. the pain was a defence against unregulated shame. fine. i could deal with that. kinda. kinda semi sorta. mention it right at the end so we don't discuss it and fine. i can talk about that. kinda semi sorta.

but i don't like this :-(

i didn't much like Kohut's first book to start with. but then in attempting to summarise a take home message it grew on me rather. the kind of narcissistic injury and disorder of the self that he was talking about... grew on me rather. i could do that.

then the Schore book. about avoidant attachment and ambivalent attachment. fine, i could do that too. the pain is a narcissistic defence against shame. fine.

but he didn't talk about dissociation and trauma and disorganised attachment in the book. wah! i don't like that :-(

i don't like it at all

:-(
:-(
:-(

(the pain can be pain. isolation. despair. or just pain. that was what i thought it was. pain. but dysregulated emotion could be it. isolation. pain. what is the difference? grief. i used to wonder if it could have been that. pain. i don't know)

i hate not knowing.

i hate confusion. confusion. confusion where nothing makes sense. where there is no order to the world. where every hypothesis fails to adequately predict. where you never know where that next horrible feeling is going to come from.

better to retreat to the crystaline purity of logic. whether the world is tropes or universals or particulars at base. whether grue's problem of induction means there is no such thing as a 'line of best fit'. no. scrap that last one... better to retreat to a world of no people and no feeling. %#@&#! the embodied rubbish cognition needs no body and a computer can be programmed such that...

I think at times we need to stop reading all the books and just pay attention to how our recovery is working for us? I remember a time I thought I was going to find ME in a book. Find exactly what was going on for me in a book. I didn't. But when I pay attention to myself after a therapy session and the next couple of days as the dust settles, I get that aha moment, now I know.

descartes noted that he had many beliefs. he also noted that through the course of his life he had discovered that many of his beliefs were in error. he wanted to secure knowledge on firm foundations and so he locked himself away in his oven room with a question 'what knowledge is there in the world that is so certain that no rational man could doubt it?'

now if he had attempted to list all of his beliefs in order to assess them one at a time he would have died before completion as people have an indefinately large number of beliefs. (i believe that 2 is greater than one, i believe that 3 is greater than 1, i believe that 4 is greater than one etc etc). so in order to save a little time descartes divided knowledge up into two kinds: 1) a-priori knowledge (knowledge prior to experience or that can be worked out on the basis of reflection alone like mathematical and logical truths). 2) a-posteriori knowledge (knowledge post, or after experience or that which is based on observation like the natural sciences).

Regarding a-posteriori knowledge he says that sometimes he dreams and yet he thinks he is awake. it is thus possible that that is happening to him now. as such all the beliefs he has about where he is and what is in the world might be false. a rational man can doubt all the deliverances of science because he might well have dreamed the deliverances (this is aka 'brain in a vat' scepticism that has been popularised by 'the matrix').

Regarding a-priori knowledge he says that sometimes he makes a mistake when he does math or logic. it is possible that there is some evil genius / demon who is systematically leading him into error every time he attempts to add 2 and 2. since he can't rationally rule this out it is possible for a rational man to doubt his a-priori beliefs.

then he says that hard as the evil demon could be intent on deceiving him by leading into systematic error it seems that the evil demon must be persuading SOMETHING. so long as he was thinking HE WAS THINKING. from this comes descartes first indubitable proposition (that no man can rationally doubt)

cogito ergo sum

which is sometimes translated as:

i think, therefore, i exist.

(there is a joke about 'i drink, therefore, i exist'. this does not work for the reason that the dream argument rules out your indubitably knowing that you drink).

this is problematic for a number of reasons:

who is the I who does the thinking? (descartes was a substance dualist but this is a since discredited position)

the use of 'therefore' makes it sound like an inference. but we can rationally doubt inferences (as shown by the evil demon argument)

so sometimes it is translated

cognition = existence

roughly... roughly...

there is a thought

there is a thought

apparantly i don't have an i

but there is a thought

(from here he offers arguments for the existence of god being indubitable and from there the notion that clear and distinct ideas are true. this is sometimes called 'the cartesian circle' because he relies on clear and distinct ideas being true in order to prove god exists and he relies on the existence of god assuring that clear and distinct ideas are true)

that is one take.

another is this:

clear and distinct ideas = god

if you apprehend the equivalence before your mind
(so it is not an inference)
if you apprehend the equivalence before your mind
(the whole thing)
it is self-evident such that no rational man can doubt it

like
2+2=4
like
p=p
like
either 'goldbachs conjecture is true'
or 'goldbachs conjecture is false'
(whichever it is)
when apprehended by an infinite mind
(clear and distinct ideas = god)

indubitable...
but strangely empty

damn, i'm so bad at capturing that.

here is a thought experiment (follow along if you like you don't need laboratory access to do philosophy)

lets try and doubt this proposition 'there is a thought'

'i doubt that there is a thought'

what was that?

a thought

in doubting that you are thinking
you are doubting
doubting is a form of thinking
doubting is thinking
doubting proves something exists
(proves what exists?)
a doubt exists

why is there something rather than nothing
(w. says this is a proposition that has no answer)
where there can be a question there can be an answer
where there is no answer
the answer lies in the dissolution of the question

the solution to the problem of space and time lies outside space and time

if you have a system of proof there will always be a proof that lies outside the system (the proof that that system is true)

he says the question
why is there something rather than nothing?
has no answer

it is meaningless.

but why is it... that it seems meaningful to me

(and can't something SEEM certain but not be? why is a sense of conviction or certainty a guide to truth?)

all these delusions in my head...

etc.

the more there is doubt that there is a thought
the more there is a doubt
the more there is a doubt the more there is a thought
(because doubting is a kind / type of thought)
doubting there is a thought
confirms there is a thought
such that... no rational man can doubt there is a thought...

bingo!

[biiv]

guess i should have read this thread before replying to the other two
im in awe of how you can grasp things in your mind alex.

hey biiv. nice to see you here :-)
i've been wondering how you are doing.
i hope you are doing okay.
i think i understand what you mean about not being in the place to post sometimes. hope you hang in there and feel up to posting about stuff soon.

((((((biiv))))))

hey mouse. yeah... i guess i read for a couple of reasons. trawling for stuff that is / might be relevant for my work... and trying to make sense of my stuff, yeah. i need to make sense of things. because i never could before. so i need to make sense of things now.

it isn't so very bad. i'm a bit confused. but some time and distance, yeah. i'll probably read those articles again. because my t has read them. i guess i'm unclear on the pain. is the pain a defence against a feeling of shame? is the pain intense shame? if it is about shame then what is the shame about? fear of what he will think of me, sure. but what is behind that? why do i feel ashamed? and about there it gets a bit much for me.

nothing really happened to me, you see. and... i'm simply not that bad. i identify more with the stuff on narcissism / borderline disorders / avoidant / ambivalent attachment than i identify with the stuff on disorganised attachment and response to trauma and so forth. i really don't think... i'm that bad. i really don't think...

i guess it is about looking forward instead of looking back.

i don't know.
i guess i just know i don't want to go that way.
am i in denial?
perhaps.

i guess i just need to take a deep breath and see how it goes...

but i guess i will keep reading... but i'll focus on the stuff i can more readily identify with. or something. i'm sorry.

[biiv]

thanks so much alex.
wish i knew if it was shame too and if so why i feel ashamed too because nothing really happened to me either and maybe im not that bad. i just sometimes feel like im bad. like my feelings are bad. i dont know why. and i get to the point of asking what is it that i feel thats so bad and thats where it gets too much for me too. dropping me off the edge of the cliff too much. like now. im so lost right now and that pain is there so much. i cant think with it. its there through everything i do so everything hurts right now from breathing to talking to thinking.
i should never have gone near finding out what my feelings are. and now i cant see my T for over two weeks and im so adrift i dont even know if thats good or bad or if i feel relieved or disappointed. i do know i feel abandoned even though it was me that said i couldnt go next week because i have lectures.
cant say any more.
did you mean you dont want to go forward or go back alex? i wonder maybe im in denial too. how do we decide whether our reality is real or if theres another reality out there thats more real? is it a choice regarding what reality we choose to focus on? is there no such thing as objective reality? if so perhaps it would be easier for us to focus on a reality that gives us peace but then perhaps that wouldnt fit with the objective reality if there is one? or the generally accepted reality which there seems to be. and if thats the case... are we destined always to be alone in our pleasant reality which would make it painfully lonely and no longer pleasant? and which might run the risk of hurting others because we cant understand their reality? what do you think? dont know if any of this can be followed or is worth following. am really struggling with mad thoughts like this right now. its not good. its very hard to stay with life when you re thinking and feeling like this.
guess i ll take a deep breath too.

hey. i think sometimes there are so many things there all mixed up together that the answer probably isn't going to be 'it is x' or 'it is y' it will probably some mixed up combination of x and y and z... sometimes the feeling of badness... well... Schore is pretty focused on the attachment bond, I guess. He talks about how (m)others regulate the infants emotions. sometimes (because of their %#@&#!) (m)others can react to the infant with fear or anger or something like that, though. and then the (m)other does look other. especially if the infant was in a happy state 'mummy look at me!' and then to see other instead of (m)other... he thinks that is the origin of shame. expectation of mirroring and finding other. it can lead to a sense of feeling bad... don't know if that helps.

i've not gone to therapy a couple of times because various things came up for me. conferences and the like. didn't stop me feeling abandoned ;-) maybe... you miss your t. and if you have been abandoned before then that lonliness can feel pretty horrid, huh.

i meant... i didn't want to go back. forward is okay. back isn't okay. but if one has to go back to move forward... well... i don't like it is all.

of course i actually talked to him today. this morning. feels an age away already. receeding fast... but i talked to him about how i really don't think that anything much happened to me. and he said he understood that i didn't remember... and i reiterated that i don't think it is that i don't remember... i really do think that nothing much happened to me. i was just lonely that was all. and i never did get along with my mother. she was invasive. or i felt invaded at any rate. she was loud and boisterous and i found her to be overbearing and invasive. and so i receeded... into books... and i talked about it for a while. and cried a little. and he said it was good. really important. and we will revisit it. and he seemed really pleased.

so maybe that is what it is about. just kind of talking about it. a lot of the time it wasn't really that anything happened. it was just that i felt really really awful. and i couldn't take that to my mother because she wasn't soothing at all. and so i had to struggle with the feelings myself. and i didn't know how to soothe myself. and so they amplified. and those feelings are what is the hardest, i think. and that they are so hard to verbalise because nobody ever talked me through it and i never talked about it before and it is really hard to put it into words.

memory is hard. cognitive psychological wisdom is that 'every retrieval is a new encoding'. that means that everytime we remember things are added so next time the additions and the memory is all jumbled up. some things are fairly factual. 'dad left when i was 7'. but WHY he left... i don't really think there is a fact about that... and how it affected me. especially if you are dealing in the episodic 'flashbulb' memories... each remembering alters the memory and IMHO facts of the matter are irrelevant because the real issue is the FEELINGS. processing the feelings. getting through the distress.

hope you are feeling okay today. take care of yourself.

and it is receeding. i guess it occurred to me that i might get more flashbacks and memories and stuff during the week since i actually talked about some of it last week. but... i haven't really. i've actually had a pretty good week. not too much ruminating. but then i've also had a week pretty filled up with social stuff too and so there hasn't really been all that much time to ruminate.

i have been trying to remember though... i remember a good memory :-) a few of them :-) i never could before... i remember going on trips to the beach with me and my father. just the two of us. i must have been 7 or 8 or 9... i really loved those trips. i have a couple flashbulb memories from those and they are good :-)

remembering a little more about my mother. and trying... trying... to remember back. hard. helps when you are half asleep (trying to get off to sleep at night). i wonder if parts do have different memories. i didn't think they did. had different thoughts and emotions sure. but memories? i didn't think they did...

nothing happened to me in a sense. when you read about some of the horrible stuff that happens to some people. compared with that nothing happened to me. but compared to the memories / childhood of the 'happy healthy' people out there... i said something to my t last week... about how my mother spent quite a bit of time ruminating / reflecting on why i was such a horrible child. he kind of flinched / cringed. i didn't really feel anything. but afterwards... i guess it occurred to me that most parents probably don't say 'i wonder why you are / were such a horrible child?' to their kids. and my brother squeezing my temples when he wanted me to shut up. i thought that was funny in hindsight 'cause i bet i was an annoying little kid. but someone looked at me a little strangely when i told them about that. i don't know. don't know what i'm saying.

electrical storms used to get to me. black sky and all that electricity in the air. used to hide in my room. dissociation... derealisation that was what it was. escape into books. who am i? if you escape into books you assimilate the identity of the people in there i guess. their experiences become your experiences in a way.

i think i'm a chameleon.
my experiences flow through me
assimilated
and spewed out the other side

me
me
me
was never meant to be

he said they formed with a sense of self. but that i don't have one because all of me is cast off to them.

i don't have a sense of self?

i thought i did...

but don't push me on that.

smile sweetly
look inconspicuous
gentle so gentle
and cry quietly at night
so nobody hears

http://www.sanctuaryweb.com/Document...0Part%20II.pdf

feel sick

((alexandra_k))

Thank you for that link. I went there for a few minutes this morning and am off to work and I want to return to it later. It's very interesting and will be helpful to me. I hope it is helpful to you too.

((hugs))

((AK))

'working with shame in psychotherapy'
(PDF)

http://www.brisbaneselfpsychology.com/Shame.pdf