You know I post on a 12step associated recovery site. I posted there since I first got sober 4yrs ago. I thought those people in 12 step recovery groups were honest brave folk. I thought I was not worthy of them. But posting here in this forum particularly and other "therapy" orientated sites I witness True self honesty and bravery. People not afraid to talk about their own "shadow" I don't see that in 12 step reocvery sites I see pepole disowning their shadow side and associating themselves with the percieved goodness of someout "outside" higher power. fI find myself being scapegoated in these other forums for wanting to talk about "real" issues. I was believing maybe there is something wrong with me? Maybe these people are "good" people and I am just plain "bad"

I;m not! I'm just at a more realistic level of self honesty!

I guess I just want to thank everyone for all the hard work and honesty I see in this forum!! ((YOU))

[kimmydawn]

It's so great that you've come to an awareness with this, mouse. Thank you for sharing that.

I agree in that after hearing sooooooo many stories of survival, healing and struggling, there are different ways of reaching that same goal. My way might not be your way, but it's the best for me kinda thing.

I've always kind of done things bass ackwards, ya know? In school, with math formulas the teachers would be amazed and try to understand my formulas for coming to the correct answer when they seemingly made no sense to them. Life is that way.

We have to be creative with the tools and individual understandings that we have. You've done that! Bravo!

Some latch on strong and hard to their Higher Power...very cool! Some go to their own inside resources...very cool! Some use a combination of both...very cool! The goal is healing and we all use our individual strengths, resources, beliefs and understandings to get there.

How cool is it that we can share in our journeys, learning as we go, doing our different jobs based on many things, while all sharing a goal?

KD

KD, I think you mis read me. I was meaning that I am being shuned for not doing things their way. I don't see that as bravery on their behalf nor honesty! Yes I agree there are many paths to enlightment but some seem particularly set up to shun any way but "THEIR way" and amongst the worse offenders I see the less bravery. This was my point.

Because I refuse to megre with a higher power I was told that am trying to get people to drink again. Duh? I listen to "them" share their journey but my take on things is squashed. I just see defence of a higher power going on and not self honesty to the degree I read here.

I guess this links into my anger yesterday. I feel let down by peoples self deceptions. the more I learn and grow and no its ok to be human the more angry I feel that I was being shuned for this for not talking the talk. I don't feel that here. I feel real people talking about real issues. I see humanity here.

oh forget it.

perhaps this is all about feeling different??? am I outing out old feelings???? do I put myself in a "group/sect/organisation to work out these feelings off difference???? is my anger "rage" from a time long ago when I was different????? when put into a different familys home??????? yes maybe! a power struggle? what people see as a natural difference .. I see as a battle for my existence!! not to be swallowed up by something that isn't mine???????

you know T always said my adoptive mother never "held" my baby rage. Maybe thats what I am trying to fix. People run from me when I am angry. I wouldnt hurt them but I test them. Will they still accept me once they've seen my rage????? I know now it never was about just my birth mother. Its about the rage any baby would feel at having the "wrong" mother...but having a good enought 2nd mother that could have contained this rage and loved me anyways would have made a lot of difference.

This big block of yuk I always feel inside is rage!. I will look in the mirror and with rage on my face and love me anyhow!!

so many people will only love you and help you if your "docile"? that pisses me off. The messge life gives out is "Don't be angry" ! well I say bollocks to that! LOL

[sunrise]

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mouse_ said:
I was meaning that I am being shuned for not doing things their way. I don't see that as bravery on their behalf nor honesty! Yes I agree there are many paths to enlightment but some seem particularly set up to shun any way but "THEIR way" and amongst the worse offenders I see the less bravery. This was my point.

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Mouse, I have a friend who had very much the same experience with 12 step groups (AA for her). It was their way or not at all and as she grew in her recovery process she discovered the way best for her and AA was not the best fit. What was especially hurtful to her is that as she moved on along her path to recovery, she left AA behind, and the great friends she thought she had made through AA totally "dropped" her after she left AA. She was shunned. It was emotionally very painful to her to realize that they only "cared" about her if she chose their recovery path. Please continue trying to find your own path. Only you know the way to heal--others cannot tell you what will work for you. Hang in there!

Sunrise! Thank you for your imput. I don't feel so odd or alone now!

[withit]

Old friend called me today, said she's on 12-step program for compulsive overeating. What drives me insane about her 'talk' is when she says that she has no control over her overeating and she has to tell her sponsor what she's going to be eating on any given day, and I'm like OHMYGOD! They give over their freedom of choice, somehow they buy into the belief that they don't have control over their own actions! aaarrrrggghhh....

Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

If I understood you correctly, Mouse, you're saying among other things, that you are being condemned for not submitting to a 'higher power'. Oh well, we submit to the power within us You also mention you may have an issue about 'belonging' etc. The truth is that notwithstanding your desire/need for belonging, the reality of the groups's attitude is not to be dismissed. Let us not forget that though the present reality and historical experience may converge to make for a painful experience they both deserve our attention. The group of people you are referring to may or may not be shunning you for not submitting to a higher authority. One way to know that is to ask. If their response is that they do respect your journey then you know that you have simply been projecting your feeling of not-belonging onto the group. But if the response it that your journey is somehow 'wrong' or something of that nature, then you know that your experience of not-belonging in the group is a reality. Armed with this info you can now make an informed decision whether this group meets your needs for improved well-being.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you. I may have to reread your post. I will re-read it anyway because i find your insight and self-disclosure so refreshing and always-capable-of-making-me-nod-my-head-as-I-read-your-posts!

Take gentle care,

[Soidhonia]

Hello Mouse.
I hope things are going well for you . I think I understand what you are saying for some groups it is go with the rest of the group or feel alone in your thinking and acknowledgements and empowerment. Since you have grown in your understanding and awareness it is possible that you need a higher understanding group to keep growing to feel that you are still available for growth. I think that a lot of people in groups reach a point of self discovery and awareness and then seek other groups to join for that reason because your insight and productiivity in life is not being fe, but altered by others who are less applicable in wanting or needing to grow in awareness and insight. I would suggest not trying to just stay in this one group but looking for other groups that grow in more mature levels of growth as you grow so you wont feel alone in your journey of awareness. I hoep the best for you Mouse and I hope you find what you are seeking from your search for understanding and growth. Take care and good day. Soidhonia

Withit! you understand me perfectly! Thank you!

[January]

Mouse,

I agree with Sunrise. Each of us have our own paths to follow. Just because you follow one and I follow another, one of us isn't wrong. I know you as a caring, thoughtful member.

Hugs,

Jan

I struggled with AA / NA as well. Mostly because of the 'higher power' stuff (I'm an atheist) but also this notion that you are powerless to your addiction and without the AA / NA group you are apparantly on the road to jails, institutions, and death (that is in their blurb). Sigh.

Took me a long while... I found this book by this guy on 'rational recovery' which is a kind of a CBT / agnostic version of the 12 step program. He had altered them considerably... But still...

In the end... I figured that dealing with my addiction was about moving forward in life towards things that I want rather than associating with people SOLELY because we were supposed to have the same problems. Those only held me back. Especially the 'disease' talk and the 'you are powerless over your addiction and then along comes God' stuff that I found really hard to palate.

I know AA / NA works great for some people. There are a number of people who don't really benefit from it, however. It simply isn't true that those people who don't benefit are on the road to 'jails, institutions, and death' as there are other varieties of therapy (including group therapy) and other programes out there.

One thing I found hard was the slogans. Some people seemed to live their life repeating slogans from the AA 'bible'.

Reminds me of some people who live their life repeating slogans from their bible...

Reminds me of the skills trainers and what they were teaching us in DBT too... Slogans from the skills manual... Viewing and classifying everything you do in your life into the diary skills cards...

Helps people cope for a time... But after a while the slogans can seem kinda empty. Simplifies things considerably for a time but after a while... Life provides more diversity than any of those classification systems...

For me anyway. Hang in there.

Hmm. It is hard.

I guess that when it really is 'one day at a time' then the little slogans can help. It can get to the point that they automatically occur to you and help counter some of the other (more detrimental) automatic thoughts / behaviours that get us into trouble...

But there comes a point where you move forward and try and live your life. I always feel a little sad when I hear of people who 5 years + or 10 years + or 20 years + are still living their life thinking that they can only get by because of their group attendance. I know some people hang around to help others for the most part and sometimes become addiction therapists (or play that role informally).

I guess drugs and alchohol can become a habitual way of coping. They help numb the emotions. After a time of not using the feelings can come back full force. It can be hard.

I also think that there can be a lot of diversity between the different chapters / meeting groups. With respect to how much they get through 'one day at a time' with the slogans and with respect to how much credance they give to the program 'as written' with respect to working through the steps and the like.

My main problems with AA / NA were the steps which became progressively more oriented towards something approximating the christian god. I know they typically say that your higher power can be your bedpan, but it seems a little silly to be confessing your sins to your bedpan (a requirement of a later step). My other problem was the notion of addiction as a 'lifelong disease' instead of a problem with behaviour. I think that it is up to the individual to decide (over time) whether they can be an occasional user or whether total abstinence is the best way for them. I don't think that there is anything at all that is 'inevitable' about one drink then the slippery slope back to death and despair.

I also have a problem with the courts requiring people to attend AA / NA programs (sometimes as a way of avoiding jail or as a way of reducing jail time or whatever). IMHO that constitutes the state prescribing a religious program.

End rant...

mouse>>>>>>>>

[Perna]

I think the problem is that most people, especially the people in your particular 12 step sites it sounds like, aren't as brave as you are mouse. It is my experience that people with only one way of doing things are more scared of themselves and life and of things feeling "out of control." I think there is a lot of all or none, black and white thinking with the one way right/everything else wrong. Life isn't that simple for me; there's too much "gray"?

With your therapy I think you've grown past the belief that there's an "easy", just follow these particular rules (12-steps), and Life will all be wonderful and you'll always be/stay safe and sound, etc. You are developing better coping tools than that in therapy is what I think, mouse.

[__zh]

book suggestion from your first sentence containing "baby rage"

have you read this? and if so thoughts please! am an adopted person who is now adult and have checked into this issue before but am only now learning about this deep loss that can be there even if everything was planned and smooth.

TWENTY THINGS ADOPTED KIDS WISH THEIR ADOPTIVE PARENTS KNEW
Written by Sherri Eldridge
October 1999
978-0-440-50838-0 (0-440-50838-X) link to publishers site

btw your writings are powerful in your focus on your healing despite whatever challenges life continues to put in your way. go mouse_ !

_zh, I will look that book up.

Thanks ofr all that took part in this thread. I've just come back from T and spoke about my anger. Tried to put narrative to my history and now feel at peace!

You know the next time I see an angry person I shall ask them if they want to talk. The greatest gift we can give anyone is to listen to their feelings.

I want to reply to other threads here today but feel unable too at this precise time. But I will get back to them.

[biiv]

i have a very confusing time with addiction and 12 step programs but i have looked into them a fair bit. ive been really really struggling to try to understand their concept of a higher power and i am just not getting there. also there is just something in the AA philosophy that seems to deny me my difference (despite the fact i hate being different!) and my atheism and that just makes my skin crawl so i think i understand where you are coming from.
so anyways i searched the net and found a site called i think smart.com which is for addictions but totally not AA oriented. i havent looked at it enough to devote myself to it (as i said... complicated. lol) but mayeb it can help you. it seems very interesting.
i also totally appreciate what alex and perna said in this thread. very very cool.
about angry people though mouse. its something ive been feeling a lot of recently and i dont know what to do with it! its an horrific emotion! id almost say its the worst! im with whoever it was said in another thread recently that an anger forum is a good idea.
wish i could speak to T at all about it. maybe next week. considering i had to cancel this week and about 5 hours later found it wasnt necessary but i now i have to wait over a week again to see her. waaaaaahhhhh!
shutting up now. i really do love your posts and insights though.
take care
biiv

ps i think smart.com incorporates more of a CBT approach than 12 step