[MissCharlotte]

T and I had a conversation this week about a mutual friend. I told him I was upset when I found out they knew each other. He said that if it were his T, he would want to now all the dirt because then everything would be out in the open and there should be no secrets.

I have been mulling this over and I think that the reason I found it upsetting that they knew each other is because the more I know about him the more real he becomes. If he is real, then our relationship is real. And if our relationship is real, my attachment to him is real and then there is potential for me to get hurt. (Like I was as a child).

Hmmmmmmm I wonder if he deliberately made that comment. Of course, he did because everything in that room is directed at my therapy. Aha!

reality bites.
i hate it when they do that :-(

[SecretGarden]

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T and I had a conversation this week about a mutual friend. I told him I was upset when I found out they knew each other. He said that if it were his T, he would want to now all the dirt because then everything would be out in the open and there should be no secrets.

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There are certain things I do not wish to know. That blank slate thing does have it's function. The less I know of him, the more I can just be me without fear or saying something that might not be appropriate to his situation or avoiding topics because you KNOW how he feels about THAT...

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I have been mulling this over and I think that the reason I found it upsetting that they knew each other is because the more I know about him the more real he becomes. If he is real, then our relationship is real. And if our relationship is real, my attachment to him is real and then there is potential for me to get hurt.

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I would say that the relationship within the therapeutic environment is quite real. The idea that knowing less I think can be more. Because you can make the environment or relationship in to what you need it to be and that can be quite real. And know that that attachment is quite real and can cause great love, victory, hate and all emotions.

In knowing more about our T's outside of the environment the inside environment is limited due to more knowledge that might impede progress by putting up a bunch of barriers. In knowing more one knows more of what the T thinks and does and that all effects how we might think or react. In this regard...to me... less is more.

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(Like I was as a child)

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Might you expand on this. I think that our child often shows up in therapy so your child can also experience what she needs to in there. And yes... pain.... I think this could be the reality in the environment though safer.

Just my thoughts.....

[SecretGarden]

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alexandra_k said:
reality bites.
i hate it when they do that :-(

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LOL... fewer words.... said it all...

> There are certain things I do not wish to know. That blank slate thing does have it's function. The less I know of him, the more I can just be me without fear or saying something that might not be appropriate to his situation or avoiding topics because you KNOW how he feels about THAT...

yes. yes yes yes yes yes.
thats what i like about the 'i'm not going to tell you anything about myself' line. that is it exactly.

but...

i kinda can get my head around the reasons for disclosing some things too...

but i still stick by the 'reality bites' sentiment :-(

[MissCharlotte]

Secret said,

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That blank slate thing does have it's function. The less I know of him, the more I can just be me

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I would say that the relationship within the therapeutic environment is quite real

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hmmm more food for thought. Yes Secret, I'm sure your relationship with your T is very real. I think that in my case, I have the tendancy to fragment my life into pieces. I can deal with these pieces as I wish and not deal with them when I don't feel like it. I fantasize a lot and can just use my magic to make things go away. Kind of in the same vein as my dissociation. On some level, T knows this so for me, in order for therapy and our relationship to be real to me, they must exist outside the context of the room they occur in. That makes it less likely for me to be able to use my magic and make him go away! Wow, that's trippy. Thanks for the feedback.

[MissCharlotte]

Alexandra said:
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but i still stick by the 'reality bites' sentiment :-(

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Me too, because it does! As Tony Sopano said to his T, "Is this it? Is this all there is? Well I think it sucks!"

[Perna]

I spent a good 7-8 years with the huge imagination/fantasy thing trying to figure out how the "is this all" thing works out so it's not so depressing and I never figured it out but it did work out :-)

I think the imagination/fantasy thing got to be more real in some way, more "mine" and reliable and didn't feel quite like a fluke or something in control of me rather than me it is what happened. It's nice to be able to "direct" it instead of just have it appear and, hopefully, save me in the nick of time.

The attachment of hand holding is much better than the attachment of me chaining my T and me both to the briefcase with the bomb in it :-)

[sunrise]

I guess maybe I'm in the minority here, as I find it beneficial when my T self-discloses. It contributes to our therapeutic alliance and allows for achieving a mutualistic partnership in therapy. My T is eclectic with a strong humanistic streak, so it is within the context of his therapeutic approach to use this technique. He weaves his self-disclosure into our therapy very skillfully, yet still maintains his boundaries. Because of a past relationship with a therapist many, many years ago (as well as abandonment by him), self-disclosure was essential to me or I wasn't going to "play ball" in therapy with this T. Thank goodness he "got the message" fairly quickly and was able to provide. I had a dream early on that bonked us over the heads with this so my "message" was loud and clear. (I often use dreams to tell T what I need, or at least get the discussion started, as it is hard for me to just come right out and state it.)

[SecretGarden]

Sunrise... My first T was like yours...and he was a Godsend to me really. He shared... and I appreciated it but sometimes I had to remind him that it was my hour...lol... For the bulk though... I really appreciated this as it allowed me to develop trust of him and of therapy in general. It provided it's function at the time.

Now this T has a different way of doing things (with some similarities... but not alot of self disclosure) and in my personal journey, this is what I need now. I like the idea of not knowing so much...now.

It again is a matter of what each individual wants and sometimes moreso what they need. Your needs are different at this time and you are learning to retrust, etc...

[MissCharlotte]

Sunny said:

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I guess maybe I'm in the minority here,

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I should elaborate.

Now that the disclosure has been put out there, I am not uncomfortable with it. However, that was my initial reaction. You see, my mind sort of plays a little game: if I don't know about T's personal life, then he doesn't exist for real. If he doesn't exist for real, then he can't hurt me, abandon me, require me to respond emotionally, etc.

I think T knows this about me.

It's like this. During one of the first few sessions i found out he sends his kids to a school my oldest son went to. At first I was so happy because I felt it gave us a common bond. After a week or so I was upset because it humanized him and I didn't want that common bond. Now, I'm back to being happy about it. It's just a carousel that my mind creates.

Hmmm, another thought. Maybe the human aspect takes him off the pedestal I have put him on. He becomes just like me--that is, trudging through the muck and the mire. The net effect of that is the realization that there is no magic bullet, magic wand, magic words that he can employ to fix me or take away my pain and my problems. Ohhhh, this is definitely part of it.

Darn, I hate it when that happens.

So, are you going ask your mutual friend about him? Or ask this person NOT to disclose anything? For me, I'd prefer to know nothing.

em

[MissCharlotte]

Well,

I already asked her how she knew him and truth be known I fished around a little. LOL.

She said she knew him through her ex-husband (who is also a T) and said too bad he (my T) was divorced because she had liked his wife.

I told him this and he smiled.

I won't mention him again to her, though, conversation OVER.

A little info goes a loooooong way.

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SecretGarden said:

There are certain things I do not wish to know. That blank slate thing does have it's function. The less I know of him, the more I can just be me without fear or saying something that might not be appropriate to his situation or avoiding topics because you KNOW how he feels about THAT...

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Oooh la la Secret..... have you been reading my mind lately?

Ohhhh, so I have a good friend.... who has a friend who is an intern at the psychoanalytic center where my T works!! She wanted me to meet the friend since we are both therapy interns who want to be analysts... and probably have a lot in common....but she knows my T because she works with him! I haven't met her yet, and frankly.... I don't want to! It would be too weird. If I did meet her, I think I would easily be able to resist the temptation to ask about my T.... because it would really %#@&#! things up for me. BUT-- it would be going through my head like crazy and I don't even wanna deal with that.

What I am reading in "Between Therapist and Client" by Michael Kahn, it is cosidered risky for T to self-disclose because it is seen as interfering, getting in the way. As SecretGarden said, therapy is supposed to be about the client.

"Gill and Kohut strongly imply that the therapist who answers personal questions robs the client of an opportunity to explore the feelings and fantasies that gave rise to the question."

or

"Every question answered is a fantasy lost." from In Session.

It makes sense to me because the minute you know somethng for a fact, you stop wondering about it. The wondering leads to fantasy and reveals more about you (the reasons you wonder and what the conclusions you arive at say about you) rather than having the question answered outright which would reveal about T.

On the other hand, some Ts reveal to demystify the therapist and the process. Like sunny said, it makes the T more human, more real and Kohut says not revealing may make the client feel rejection by the T so that must be considered client by client.

Personally, I have had both. I do prefer very little self-disclosure because it does distract me. It's one of the ways I avoid thinking about my own stuff, to get others talking about them and getting into their stuff.

This T has an adult daughter and her framed picture is on the desk, facing the room (the desk faces the wall/window). I want to turn it face-down when I go in there. I don't want her in there with us!! lol Sibling rivalry?

I think T's self-disclosure is an individual thing and majority or minority don't matter a whit. It's just what you and T are comfrotable with, what you prefer.


ECHOES

[sunrise]

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I think T's self-disclosure is an individual thing and majority or minority don't matter a whit.

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It also depends on what their therapeutic approach is. I believe those references you cited, ECHOES, are more in the psychodynamic field? That is one that models therapist neutrality and little self disclosure. So although what you wrote may be a given for psychodynamic work, it is not necessarily so for other approaches. My T is eclectic, with a strong humanistic streak, an approach that values therapist self-disclosure. Still, I wonder if my T had a client who hated self-disclosure, would he modify how much he self-discloses? Who knows what our T's do with their other clients? Like maybe my T only self-discloses with me, lol. (Hey, that would be cool!!) He does have a strong psychodynamic streak too, so who knows. Sometimes I want to be a fly on the wall in his therapy room and see how he is with other clients. Like, I wonder, is my therapy with him typical of what he does, or kind of weird? Does he do dreams and ego state therapy with everyone else? What if I were the fly on the wall and found out he is a closet CBT practitioner? AAAACCKK! [/flies_screaming_from_his_room] <font color="yellow">(For those who don't know, CBT does not work well with me!)</font>

[MissCharlotte]

Yes,

Echoes,

I agree that I don't want too much disclosure and frankly T didnt disclose much at all. I know his kid went to the same school as mine because it came up in conversation and the info from friend came up accidentaly between me and her because i mentioned his name to her. So....when i told him about the mutual friend he wanted to know if we had talked about him. He wasn't really self disclosing, but I think he was fishing around to see if I was curious about him.

In reality, he discloses very little, just enough to keep me comfortable, knowing he is a human.

Hmmmm more food for thought.

Hey, by the way, unrelated, I bought a Pema Chodron book today & can't wait to get started on it. T thought I would enjoy her writing. I'll let you know.

Hey that's great sister--which book of Pema Chodron's? I'll be excitedly waiting to see what you think of her writing and I truly hope you enjoy it. She is quite insightful and outside the box.

I'm curious that your T wondered if you and the mutual friend talked about him. Sounds like his own needs getting involved there.

I'm glad you're comfortable with his disclosing. That's all that matters!

ECHOES

[withit]

For me, I want therapy to be all about ME. I nurture and give so much to my children I am willing to pay a lot of money once a week to have someone nurture ME for a change. And so I do not appreciate much self-disclosure from t.

In addition, there's the 'blank slate' idea that really helps me make use of the therapy experience.

A part of my therapist's life that she brings into session most of the time is her dog. it is a wonderful caramel brown english springer spaniel...and it very loving.

...but i sort of hate that this dog is there in MY session, because it feels like it distracts my Therapist's attention away from me....

most of the time the dog lays quietly...but if it is a certain time of the day...the dog might need to go out and is getting restless and whining and needs to be taken out...so attention must be split between my T and the dog.

it doesn't happen all the time. maybe about 20-25% of the time i'm in session is the dog a distraction.

i called my T about a month ago saying I was thinking of returning ffrom my break from therapy...but I felt like for my first session back I wanted her dog not be there. she said that would be hard to do.

she may have personal reasons for her dog being there...but it didn't seem like much to ask for just one hour for a single session to have the dog NOT be there (when i'm trying to make a decision about returning to therapy or giving up altogether). i'm probably asking too much though.

is my T's dog being there too much of her personal life being there?

oooohhh, I would be a bit upset if T told me it would be hard to not have her dog there. more than a bit upset. I would be questioning everything.

If it was me, I might have liked meeting the dog (maybe) but I'm sure I wouldn't want it there every session. That is my time and pup can go take a nap!.(I love animals and have a cat, but they have their place and having their presence being insisted upon... well too much for me.

No, I don't think you are asking too much at all, Ipse_Dixit.
It's too much for you and that's what is important.

Part of my mind usually has a good way of twisting things.

And with this issue of my therapist bringing her dog into session...it is like her bringing her personal life into my session (in some ways).

But there are some circumstances that make it hard to discount her "need" to have that dog around. She is a single woman now. She didn't tell me, but I know she was divorced recently (well a 1.5-2.5 years ago, I can't remember now). I know because she used to hyphenate her name. She doesn't anymore. Plus, I was looking for her practice online and did a search for her name and that search brought up a list from a local newspaper that lists "marriage dissolutions" and her name was there. So she is a single woman, and she lives alone and sometimes she works late and the neighborhood after dark may not be the safest. So she needs to protect herself. God forbid she gets hurt because she doesn't have her dog around to protect her. Also, she has other clients besides me who might be served well by having the dog around. It may actually be an asset for them.

But I'm still left with the feeling that the dog is taking her attention from me, not the majority of the time mind you, but about 20-25% of the time.

But here is where my mind twists things..........

Part of me wants to bring up the thought that she has put me in a difficult position, by bringing her personal life in the form of her dog into my therapy. And then say to her, "it seems like you need to make a choice: between removing the dog from my therapy sessions or me not returning for any therapy sessions". Essentially, it asking her to decide between me and her dog.

And that may genuinely put her in a bad position and perhaps even our entire relationship in a bad position, because either way it seems like a "lose-lose" situation. If she chooses the "dog", I leave. If she chooses "me", the dog is gone but she may resent me underneath.

And even if it never explicitly comes down to that...if our therapy relationship is not maintained much longer, I may subconsciously wonder if she indeed did choose the dog over me, by pulling back her desire to actually work with me anymore.

And if she chooses the dog over me, I'll go around thinking: "Wow, I suck. She took the dog over me."

Of course, this goes back to what me and my T have talked about for 3 years: my "black-and-white" or "all-or-nothing" thinking.

But as I write this, I'm just probably overblowing things.

[sidony]

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Ipse_Dixit said:
but I felt like for my first session back I wanted her dog not be there. she said that would be hard to do.

she may have personal reasons for her dog being there...but it didn't seem like much to ask for just one hour for a single session to have the dog NOT be there (when i'm trying to make a decision about returning to therapy or giving up altogether). i'm probably asking too much though.

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Wow. You are not asking too much! One of my best friends IRL is a psychologist, and she actually takes her dog with her to therapy. I told her that if I were one of her clients, I wouldn't want the dog there (nothing against dogs, I'd just prefer to have no distraction). She said she does have a couple of clients who don't like the dog present. In those cases, she puts the dog in a crate in another room, and they never even see him. Lots of her clients like the dog though so she mostly leaves him out. But she definitely considers her clients' needs first! Your therapist should have put your needs ahead for the therapy session!!!

Sidony

I do admit it is hurtful and I really don't like to compete for my therapist's attention with that dog. Truely, 80-75% of the time the dog just lays there and naps.

I wonder if I'm doing my usual thing and just trying to make a bigger situation out of something to push people away.