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  #626  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 11:33 AM
Anonymous43207
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So I thought I'd share one of the poems I started recently and scratched out. It was going to be a sonnet. Might still finish it. "Sonnet on the Therapeutic Relationship" lol

'Professional collaboration' yes
but masquerading like it's personal
because the work is so relational.
Perpetual confusion at it's best.
Does it work? It's anybody's guess.
Thanks for this!
unaluna

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  #627  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 11:37 AM
Anonymous43207
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Dare I bore y'all with the other sonnet I started and scratched out? This one is about therapy too, of course. That's how come I scratched them both out. Ha!

I watch you, so serene, sitting there.
You're beautiful, you know, listening
intently while I talk. A small thing
really, but also very rare.
Thanks for this!
unaluna
  #628  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 11:59 AM
JustShakey's Avatar
JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post
So I thought I'd share one of the poems I started recently and scratched out. It was going to be a sonnet. Might still finish it. "Sonnet on the Therapeutic Relationship" lol

'Professional collaboration' yes
but masquerading like it's personal
because the work is so relational.
Perpetual confusion at it's best.
Does it work? It's anybody's guess.

I really like this one Art.
In my last session T was asking me to imagine that he was my friend instead of my T. I was blocking myself again, mostly because of this. I don't want to indulge too much in imagining him as a friend. It really f-ing hurts. But, at the same time, the masquerade is the work... So... Yeah...
It does work, I think, if you can handle the bloody pain...
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
  #629  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 12:02 PM
Anonymous43207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustShakey View Post
I really like this one Art.
In my last session T was asking me to imagine that he was my friend instead of my T. I was blocking myself again, mostly because of this. I don't want to indulge too much in imagining him as a friend. It really f-ing hurts. But, at the same time, the masquerade is the work... So... Yeah...
It does work, I think, if you can handle the bloody pain...
Thanks! And, ooh. I like that - "the masquerade is the work". Mind if I use that?
  #630  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 12:04 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post
Thanks! And, ooh. I like that - "the masquerade is the work". Mind if I use that?

go for it.
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
  #631  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 02:26 PM
Anonymous43207
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Just got home from t. I read both of those poem snippets to her. She kinda seemed a little, well, almost offended about my use of the word "masquerade"! I think she felt like I was saying she's fake. I told her I was not being accusatory to anyone and tried to explain what I meant, but I wasn't doing a very good job of it so JS, then I told her what you said about "the masquerade is the work" and she sorta got my meaning a little more then. We had a good session. At the very end, I handed her one of the other poems I wrote, the one that was about ending.... not one I shared here.... and she read it while I got out my hsa card and she said "it doesn't have to end, you know" and then she ran my card through her card reader thingy on her phone and I could barely sign because my hands were shaking. Meh. On the way home, I pulled over and texted her "Oh the feels when you were reading that poem!!" and she replied "Hmm." I hated that response of course. So I replied "I'm good. Laughing at myself, but good. I'll leave it alone now." and she replied with a little flower emoji. I'm SO lame!! (edited to change that last period to a couple exclamation points for effect! Because I am! Lame!) Edited again to add: what the hell does "Hmm." mean anyway?!

goddess help me, I love that woman.

Last edited by Anonymous43207; Apr 16, 2016 at 02:45 PM.
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  #632  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 03:10 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post
Just got home from t. I read both of those poem snippets to her. She kinda seemed a little, well, almost offended about my use of the word "masquerade"! I think she felt like I was saying she's fake. I told her I was not being accusatory to anyone and tried to explain what I meant, but I wasn't doing a very good job of it so JS, then I told her what you said about "the masquerade is the work" and she sorta got my meaning a little more then. We had a good session. At the very end, I handed her one of the other poems I wrote, the one that was about ending.... not one I shared here.... and she read it while I got out my hsa card and she said "it doesn't have to end, you know" and then she ran my card through her card reader thingy on her phone and I could barely sign because my hands were shaking. Meh. On the way home, I pulled over and texted her "Oh the feels when you were reading that poem!!" and she replied "Hmm." I hated that response of course. So I replied "I'm good. Laughing at myself, but good. I'll leave it alone now." and she replied with a little flower emoji. I'm SO lame!! (edited to change that last period to a couple exclamation points for effect! Because I am! Lame!) Edited again to add: what the hell does "Hmm." mean anyway?!

goddess help me, I love that woman.

I think hmm is the vocal equivalent of the ellipsis...

I've been thinking about masquerade all day - to the detriment of all the work I need to get done And I have the song from Phantom of the Opera stuck in my head 'masquerade... ...hide your face so the world will never find you'.
...
I think therapy is like a face off between masquerade and drama. Maybe. Wanting the safety of the mask, but needing the visceral realness of the drama.

Sigh, I love my T too, but... I'm longing for the day when I'll have people close to me that I can love in the same way, without the limits of the therapeutic relationship. Of course, real life will have its own limits... But... Sigh...
I'll get there, but in the meantime I'm just really, really lonely.
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
Hugs from:
atisketatasket, unaluna
  #633  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 03:22 PM
Anonymous43207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustShakey View Post
I think hmm is the vocal equivalent of the ellipsis...

I've been thinking about masquerade all day - to the detriment of all the work I need to get done And I have the song from Phantom of the Opera stuck in my head 'masquerade... ...hide your face so the world will never find you'.
...
I think therapy is like a face off between masquerade and drama. Maybe. Wanting the safety of the mask, but needing the visceral realness of the drama.

Sigh, I love my T too, but... I'm longing for the day when I'll have people close to me that I can love in the same way, without the limits of the therapeutic relationship. Of course, real life will have its own limits... But... Sigh...
I'll get there, but in the meantime I'm just really, really lonely.
Yes - the limits of the relationship. That. When I was fumbling for words trying to explain my use of the word masquerade, she was trying to explain something about it is a personal relationship but within professional parameters or something, I don't know. And I said but it's still within a bubble, and I can't squish my feelings for you to just exist in that bubble. Today was one of those sessions I wish I had recorded, because I've already forgotten much of what she said. Interestingly she told me again today that I don't need therapy anymore, what we're doing is no longer therapy, but working on my individuation process. I just realized right now typing this that part of that is separating myself from her. What my break was about. Finding me apart from her. Sorry for rambling. I do some of my best work here on the couch!!

JS, I'm sorry you're lonely. You know, we really need to meet for lunch or something one of these days. Every time I'm up your way, h is with me and it's not the right time. I think I need a girl's day!!
Hugs from:
unaluna
  #634  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 04:07 PM
Anonymous43207
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Reading an article about Jung's idea of the process of individuation. This is by a Martin Schmidt:

"in his autobiography (1961), Jung presents us with a conundrum when he also states that the goal of individuation is detachment from emotional relationships. Emotional relationships he defines as tethered because they are relationships of desire with expectations of others. He recommends that in order to attain objectivity and selfhood, one needs to withdraw the projections inherent in emotional ties to others. In this light, analysis could be seen as the playing out of emotional relationships between analyst and patient with a view to facilitating the reintrojection of projections in the resolution of the transference/countertransference. Jung implies this when he describes the transference phenomenon as, without doubt, one of the most important syndromes in the process of individuation."

This hurts my head haha but I guess is what my t was talking about this morning when she said it's not a masquerade, but it's my projections. Maybe. I don't know. Interesting though.
  #635  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 04:23 PM
awkwardlyyours awkwardlyyours is offline
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But, what is so wrong with saying therapy is like masquerade? I really think the analogy to theatre would be helpful -- one can forget at times that one is watching theater in the most brilliant performances (and the finest actors do tap into very real parts of themselves to make that happen) but at the end of the day it is theater (which of course like all art can and does inform and enrich life).

I wonder why T's (in general) go a little bit nuts when this is pointed out -- I think everyone all around would be better served if this was fully acknowledged and then everything was built on such acknowledgment.

I don't think it'll worsen the quality of the work -- in fact, I think that kind of honesty and authenticity is what will make it so very powerful.

And conversely, I think the refusal to acknowledge the massive amount of play-acting is what leads to so much anxiety and confusion.

P.S. Don't mind me if this seems off -- am a bit grumpy with my T now for harping on about the 'relationship' being real which is leading to further navel-gazing.
Thanks for this!
atisketatasket, MobiusPsyche
  #636  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 04:37 PM
Anonymous43207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours View Post
But, what is so wrong with saying therapy is like masquerade? I really think the analogy to theatre would be helpful -- one can forget at times that one is watching theater in the most brilliant performances (and the finest actors do tap into very real parts of themselves to make that happen) but at the end of the day it is theater (which of course like all art can and does inform and enrich life).

I wonder why T's (in general) go a little bit nuts when this is pointed out -- I think everyone all around would be better served if this was fully acknowledged and then everything was built on such acknowledgment.

I don't think it'll worsen the quality of the work -- in fact, I think that kind of honesty and authenticity is what will make it so very powerful.

And conversely, I think the refusal to acknowledge the massive amount of play-acting is what leads to so much anxiety and confusion.

P.S. Don't mind me if this seems off -- am a bit grumpy with my T now for harping on about the 'relationship' being real which is leading to further navel-gazing.
No I'm right there with you. I don't understand why she seemed to feel offended by something that I see as not as an attack, but just as 'how it is' - it's not a personal relationship in any way, if it were, I wouldn't be paying her! Perhaps I should have substituted the word "natural" instead - this relationship is not natural. I don't know. It feels convoluted and confusing and that's what I was trying to get across to her. I know what you mean about it leading to further navel-gazing. Perhaps 'they' count on that (?)
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Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #637  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:01 PM
Anonymous37941
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I need to stop wanting to reach out to other people. I need to stop wanting to love other people. If therapy canot teach me those things, what good is it?
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  #638  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:08 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post

JS, I'm sorry you're lonely. You know, we really need to meet for lunch or something one of these days. Every time I'm up your way, h is with me and it's not the right time. I think I need a girl's day!!

That'd be lovely Art. I can't go too far or for too long without kids in tow. If you know you're going to be up this way let me know and I'll make sure I have some free time

That's the downside of being a divorced parent of young kids. Being parent-on-point at all times gets like that. You don't realize how much you rely on a partner for support, even if he is a ****** paperweight of a parent (as my T says) like mine was. You're always the one giving the support and then when it comes to getting any for yourself you're too exhausted, and all you want is a nap
Don't ask me how many times I've sat down in T's office and asked him if I could just take a nap... I never do, but the desire is still there.
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
  #639  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:10 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocus View Post
I need to stop wanting to reach out to other people. I need to stop wanting to love other people. If therapy canot teach me those things, what good is it?

I dunno Crocus, I think wanting to love other people is pretty normal, if anything can be described as normal... Very human at any rate.
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #640  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:12 PM
Anonymous37941
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On a less whiny note, next week I'll tell T that I want to go back to speaking English in session. We switched languages a few months ago and it's working okay but I want to do some stuff that I think I need to do in English. I don't believe he'll have a problem with it and it has to be my decision anyway. I rather look forward to it.
  #641  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:14 PM
Anonymous37941
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Originally Posted by JustShakey View Post
I dunno Crocus, I think wanting to love other people is pretty normal, if anything can be described as normal... Very human at any rate.
Absolutely, I don't deny that at all.
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  #642  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:15 PM
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atisketatasket atisketatasket is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocus View Post
I need to stop wanting to reach out to other people. I need to stop wanting to love other people. If therapy canot teach me those things, what good is it?
Trade you my near-total inability to reach out to other people? Which therapy has not yet helped with. Win-win!
  #643  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:19 PM
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unaluna unaluna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post
Reading an article about Jung's idea of the process of individuation. This is by a Martin Schmidt:

"in his autobiography (1961), Jung presents us with a conundrum when he also states that the goal of individuation is detachment from emotional relationships.

Emotional relationships he defines as tethered because they are relationships of desire with expectations of others.

He recommends that in order to attain objectivity and selfhood, one needs to withdraw the projections inherent in emotional ties to others.

[I]In this light, analysis could be seen as the playing out of emotional relationships between analyst and patient with a view to facilitating the reintrojection of projections in the resolution of the transference/countertransference.

Jung implies this when he describes the transference phenomenon as, without doubt, one of the most important syndromes in the process of individuation."
Crocus - apparently Jung is in 100 percent agreement with you!

Destination: Curmudgeon. Thanks Artie - great quote. I dont feel so bad for enjoying my solitude now.
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #644  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours View Post
But, what is so wrong with saying therapy is like masquerade? I really think the analogy to theatre would be helpful -- one can forget at times that one is watching theater in the most brilliant performances (and the finest actors do tap into very real parts of themselves to make that happen) but at the end of the day it is theater (which of course like all art can and does inform and enrich life).

I wonder why T's (in general) go a little bit nuts when this is pointed out -- I think everyone all around would be better served if this was fully acknowledged and then everything was built on such acknowledgment.

I don't think it'll worsen the quality of the work -- in fact, I think that kind of honesty and authenticity is what will make it so very powerful.

And conversely, I think the refusal to acknowledge the massive amount of play-acting is what leads to so much anxiety and confusion.

P.S. Don't mind me if this seems off -- am a bit grumpy with my T now for harping on about the 'relationship' being real which is leading to further navel-gazing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis-within View Post
No I'm right there with you. I don't understand why she seemed to feel offended by something that I see as not as an attack, but just as 'how it is' - it's not a personal relationship in any way, if it were, I wouldn't be paying her! Perhaps I should have substituted the word "natural" instead - this relationship is not natural. I don't know. It feels convoluted and confusing and that's what I was trying to get across to her. I know what you mean about it leading to further navel-gazing. Perhaps 'they' count on that (?)

It's the idea of 'hiding' and 'pretending' they don't like. Early on in my therapy I accused my T (in a playful way) of acting. I apologized for that recently, because at the time I did mean it as an insult.
But it *is* a drama... Like you say, theatre is an art, and it is not about hiding or pretending. The opposite I would say...
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #645  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:39 PM
Anonymous43207
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Anyway I think I'm going to keep working on that particular poem, and try to come up with a word that matches how I feel a little more closely than "masquarade" does. I showed her that I'd scribbled what I'd written out... so that should have been evidence that it was exactly what I was trying to say. I think you're right JS that the use of that word gave the impression that I thought she was pretending.
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #646  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:42 PM
MobiusPsyche's Avatar
MobiusPsyche MobiusPsyche is offline
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Therapy is embedding genuine feelings in an artificial relationship. Maybe? (artificial in the sense of not-natural like Art said)

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk.
__________________
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned." --Richard Feynman
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #647  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:49 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobiusPsyche View Post
Therapy is embedding genuine feelings in an artificial relationship. Maybe? (artificial in the sense of not-natural like Art said)

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk.

I don't know if artificial is the best word either, but yeah. Maybe 'synthesized relationship'...
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours
  #648  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:52 PM
Anonymous50005
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I don't find the therapy relationship "artificial." It is always been a completely genuine relationship. I think it is a unique relationship with a very specific purpose (but all relationships have very specific, unique purposes), but that doesn't make it any less genuine or an act or a masquerade. I can understand why a therapist would be offended with an accusation that their caring for a client is just an act or a masquerade; it devalues the work they do and I have found all of my therapists to be professionally emotionally invested in my well-being -- that wasn't an act.
Thanks for this!
precaryous
  #649  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 05:54 PM
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MobiusPsyche MobiusPsyche is offline
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I think the caring *is* genuine (at least in the best therapeutic relationships). The artificiality comes in the structure and limits put on the relationship by the nature of therapy.

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk.
__________________
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned." --Richard Feynman
Thanks for this!
atisketatasket, awkwardlyyours
  #650  
Old Apr 16, 2016, 06:01 PM
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JustShakey JustShakey is offline
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Well, the therapeutic relationship is one that is carefully constructed - synthesized, by both parties, and real life dramas are acted out in microcosm. It is much more than 'just' an act, but it *is* a drama that happens within a confined time and space.
Now the repercussions of that drama are far-reaching, but the drama itself is contained...
__________________
'...
At poor peace I sing
To you strangers (though song
Is a burning and crested act,
The fire of birds in
The world's turning wood,
For my sawn, splay sounds,)
...'
Dylan Thomas, Author's Prologue
Thanks for this!
atisketatasket, awkwardlyyours, MobiusPsyche
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