Following my toxic session last night with t, this question has stuck with me.
T is a firm believer in this saying yet I disagree with her and find it to be judgemental. She has not been in same places or situations as me so what gives her the right to judge me and say that.
While I do believe that a t should work on their own process and be willing to do on going work on themselves it leaves me with the question. Who knows where a t has been and can they judge you and where you are?

[stopdog]

I don't think a therapist can take a client anywhere no matter what. I would not see one who thought they got to or could

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't think a therapist can take a client anywhere no matter what. I would not see one who thought they got to or could

That's interesting stop dog, t does think it's her god given right that she can take me in this magical journey.
What is you think a t should do?

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I guess I don't understand what that even means or why it would have come up. Is you T saying she can't help you because of her own issues or something? You call that judgmental towards you, but it sounds more judgmental of herself, but again, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.

I don't think I've ever really experienced any of my T's as judgmental. Yes, they had some firm opinions about certain things, but it was more about making me aware of my options (and my stubbornness to even look at them) than about personal judgment.

If thats the case then there must be millions of ineffectuals T world wide. Staggering. So a T who has never suffered physical abuse couldn't treat someone who suffered it. I guess I don't inderstand the question either.

[Bipolar Warrior]

I think I understand what you are saying. If the therapist has not resolved their own issues in therapy I do not think they can help a client resolve theirs because they'll still be stuck somewhere on their own emotional "journey". I don't think they necessarily would have had to go through the same exact things as the client has to be able to understand and help them, but they need to at least understand themselves. Am I close?

[brillskep]

In a way, I do think it's true that a therapist may not work very well with a client who is much more open-minded or experienced than him/herself. A therapist who doesn't know their own issues and blind spots very well may very well block the client's process.

That said, I think this is a but dismissive about the client's participation. The client needs to be open, willing, and prepared to go where the client wants to go. It's not just up to the therapist to "take" the client somewhere. It is the client's journey. In my opinion, the therapist can just provide a healthy, good context and relationship, perhaps questions, interpretations or whatever their chosen method offers. But whether the client can and wants to grow is a different question. So I don't think the therapist's experience has to be a limit - after all, no therapist can have processed everything or experienced every issue the clients may come with. But I do think the therapists' own journey is vital so that the therapist can provide a safer context for clients, free of their own personal conflicts and issues.

Originally Posted by lolagrace

I guess I don't understand what that even means or why it would have come up. Is you T saying she can't help you because of her own issues or something? You call that judgmental towards you, but it sounds more judgmental of herself, but again, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.

I don't think I've ever really experienced any of my T's as judgmental. Yes, they had some firm opinions about certain things, but it was more about making me aware of my options (and my stubbornness to even look at them) than about personal judgment.

Maybe I am not explaining it properly. I am saying it in the context of me as a trainee therapist and t being judgemental of my process or lack as progress as she sees it.

Originally Posted by BunYip

If thats the case then there must be millions of ineffectuals T world wide. Staggering. So a T who has never suffered physical abuse couldn't treat someone who suffered it. I guess I don't inderstand the question either.

Sorry for not really explaining it well, it made sense in my head and yet I was afraid of saying too much. I guess I wanted to protect my own t, me and the process!
I know from experience that there are lots of ts who have not done their work and therefore if we apply my ts view on this they cannot work with a client until they do their own work on themselves.

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I believe as long as a client is working with a therapist who is stable and open-minded, a client should be able to go wherever they need to go in therapy unimpeded.

I do believe that more experienced therapists or specialists are required for challenging cases, but that would be a very small percentage of cases IMO.

Originally Posted by Bipolar Warrior

I think I understand what you are saying. If the therapist has not resolved their own issues in therapy I do not think they can help a client resolve theirs because they'll still be stuck somewhere on their own emotional "journey". I don't think they necessarily would have had to go through the same exact things as the client has to be able to understand and help them, but they need to at least understand themselves. Am I close?

Yes, you are spot on I couldn't have put it better myself! Sometimes you can't understand something unless you have been through it!

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[Argonautomobile]

I sure hope my therapist hasn't been where I have!

[ScarletPimpernel]

If my T has been where I've been... she's freaking awesome for where she is now. I'm already a little jealous, but I'd really be jealous.

I don't think I'd want a T who had/has BPD.

And then you get into the debate: should people with mental illness be Ts etc. Where's the line, etc.

This is why Ts should keep their personal business outside of their client's therapy.

I do want a therapist who has gotten most of his/her serious issues under good control. We do see quite a bit of evidence here on PC of clients who have unfortunately been in the hands of a therapist who had not worked through enough of their own issues and those issues inadvertently bled into their client's therapy creating difficult problems. Is your therapist saying she is concerned you aren't ready to work with clients yet because of your own problems not being resolved far enough?

[nottrustin]

Since T's are human and have human experiences I don't expect them to have all of their life issues solved. I know T has childhood issues fortunately, she was never abused (she has stated multiple times she wasn't abused that she knows of). However, I know of some of the challenges she has faced and still deals with. I like that she doesn't lead the perfect life and have ALL the answers. She is normal. She knows how to help see things differently and evaluated and often change my unhealthy thought process.

Originally Posted by lolagrace

I do want a therapist who has gotten most of his/her serious issues under good control. We do see quite a bit of evidence here on PC of clients who have unfortunately been in the hands of a therapist who had not worked through enough of their own issues and those issues inadvertently bled into their client's therapy creating difficult problems. Is your therapist saying she is concerned you aren't ready to work with clients yet because of your own problems not being resolved far enough?

She keeps saying it to me every week, she says we are not getting to the real work as in CSA and sexuality and I have done quite a lot of healing on that myself but I can't with her because I don't trust her. She constantly shames me, blames me and judges me and so I won't go there.
This weeks session was the worst. In fairness I am trusting her to have done her own work and resolved her own issues but the more we continue our work together it is obvious that she has not resolved a lot of her own issues and they do interfere in our work together!
I called her a hypocrite to sit there and judge me. In fairness I have done a lot more therapy than anyone else I know in my class and will continue to be in therapy for as long as I need even though I have more than completed the required amount.
I also told her that she doesn't know the work I do with my clients and I would never judge them like she has and does judge me, I told her to mind her own business and I know it was defensive but she really went too far this week. She never encourages and bits always negative.
I have a really excellent supervisor now, she is not my supervisor and crossed so many boundaries it is hard to seperate who she is and what role does she play in my life. T you are my therapist, not my mother and not my supervisor.

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[Ididitmyway]

There seems to be two separate issues here.

One is the actual question of whether a therapist can take a client further in their healing/development than a therapist him/herself has been able to achieve.

The way I could answer this is just sharing what I know from my personal experience. In all my therapies I could always see clearly when the current therapist had approached his/her limit in how much he/she could help me. There was always a point at which I felt like we were going in circles and were chewing the same gum with no additional insights or any information I could use. At those moments, it did feel like I had outgrown the therapist and had gone further in my healing/development than they'd gone in theirs, so I'd realize that I needed to move on to something more suitable to who I had become. I wasn't always easy to leave because of the attachment to the person and to the process but eventually I'd leave because the wiser part of me knew it was necessary.

A while ago my answer to your question would've been be just "no". At this time, I prefer not to think in terms of comparisons of who's done more personal work, the therapist or I, because that is of no concern to me. What is of concern to me is whether the situation serves me or not. If it doesn't serve me by my assessment, I simply recognize the reality for what it is and try to move on.

As a therapist, I've also tried not to be obsessed about bringing myself to a certain developmental level in order to work with clients. This kind of attitude creates a lot of self-criticism and harsh self-judgement that doesn't help either the therapist or the clients. I've always been engaged in my personal work more than anyone I know, not because I feel that it's my obligation to do so but because I want to do so, because it makes my life more interesting and fulfilling. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, I've always been doing my work to the best of my ability. Setting some kind of "standards" and beating myself up for not reaching them doesn't make any sense to me. From my experience, healing can't be forced. It has its own pace, rhythm and "schedule" for every individual and it is what it is whether you like it or not.

Which brings me to the second point and that is how your therapist is doing her job. She is judging you for not doing the personal work she believes you "should' be doing in order to be an effective therapist. Ironically, she seems to have forgotten that part of being an effective therapist is to listen with empathy and compassion and to try to understand your struggles as opposed to telling you what you "should" be doing. Your being a therapist doesn't mean she should express less empathy and compassion for you than for any of her other clients.

My major "litmus test" for all my therapists had been whether I'd do to my clients what they were doing to me and if my answer was "no" it was a clear indication that my therapy was going in the wrong direction. You mentioned in one of your posts that you wouldn't treat a client the way your therapist is treating you. This is important to think about.

[Merecat]

I think a therapist needs to have undergone a significant amount of personal development to effectively work with clients. I'm not sure I could say they needed to have all their issues resolved, because I don't think we can ever say that about anyone - I've had stuff I thought was resolved only for my circumstances to change and a whole new aspect of the issue appear again. I do think it's important the therapist is self accepting because that means they'll get the support they need when issues do come up, as surely they will.

I think not doing particular work because you don't trust the therapist, rather than because you currently feel resolved about it, is a bit of a red flag. It might be worth changing T to someone you do trust for that piece of work because unresolved it will impact on your practice because there will be buttons that clients press for you without you possibly realising it. As a previous poster said, we see too often here the impact of a T who isn't aware of their own issues or aware their buttons are being pressed. In saying that, good supervision really helps with that and your supervisor should point you back to personal therapy if s/he thinks there's something that needs attention.

In saying that, as the client you get to say what the "real work" is, not your T and if you don't think you need to look at those issues just now, that's your choice. Your healing is as individual as every other client and is hope your T would work at your pace with such sensitive issues. I'm nearly finished my training to become a T, have been with my T for 2.5 years and there are things we're only starting to look at just now. It's ok if you're not ready yet, as you say your personal development is a life long quest.

[brillskep]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Maybe I am not explaining it properly. I am saying it in the context of me as a trainee therapist and t being judgemental of my process or lack as progress as she sees it.

Now I understand. Sorry about that. Sounds like something my therapist might say in anger these days. I think it's a tricky business, being a therapist's therapist, almost similar to supervision but going deeper on a personal level - after all this therapy is not just for the client but it can affect the client's clients as well. And yet, personally I'm for offering a safe space for the client, without judgment, as much as possible. I know that when my therapist judges me negatively I become much more resistant to change and make a lot less progress.

[Merecat]

I'm not sure, my therapy is entirely for me - I don't fel my T has any duty towards my clients, that's my supervisors role. In fact my therapy is the one place where it is entirely exclusively about me, which is very freeing. My T might make reference to my role as a trainee but only to the extent I bring it up.

My clients may be impacted by my personal development or lack thereof but that's about much more than just therapy. In therapy I'm a client, just like the next person.

Unless, I knew they were in training I would never want or accept a therapist that was not reassuring me that they've already done their work and they were solid. In addition they need to be older. I don't care if they've been through heaven or hell, diagnosed or not, they just have to be solid. This does not mean perfect. I would be willing to work with a trainee, and be cognizant that they are training, but I can still learn from them.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

She keeps saying it to me every week, she says we are not getting to the real work as in CSA and sexuality and I have done quite a lot of healing on that myself but I can't with her because I don't trust her. She constantly shames me, blames me and judges me and so I won't go there.
This weeks session was the worst. In fairness I am trusting her to have done her own work and resolved her own issues but the more we continue our work together it is obvious that she has not resolved a lot of her own issues and they do interfere in our work together!
I called her a hypocrite to sit there and judge me. In fairness I have done a lot more therapy than anyone else I know in my class and will continue to be in therapy for as long as I need even though I have more than completed the required amount.
I also told her that she doesn't know the work I do with my clients and I would never judge them like she has and does judge me, I told her to mind her own business and I know it was defensive but she really went too far this week. She never encourages and bits always negative.
I have a really excellent supervisor now, she is not my supervisor and crossed so many boundaries it is hard to seperate who she is and what role does she play in my life. T you are my therapist, not my mother and not my supervisor.

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I don't think I'd last very long with a therapist who made the distinction between "real" work and...what, exactly? Fake work? Isn't it up to the client to decide what sort of work is helpful? Or are we in some sort of competition for spiritual enlightenment in which everything ugly and difficult about us must be cut away and exposed to the light, the more blood and tears the better?

I find myself particularly prickly that she'd have this attitude around CSA. If my therapist had ever gone after this subject with any level of aggression, It would have destroyed the relationship. Because interest like that looks far too much like voyeuristic attunement to me, and the command to "trust" the therapist with this toxic material looks far too much like the command to "trust" the abuser who created that material in the first place.

You are not there to entertain the therapist with intense material or satisfy their need to witness extreme emotional experiences. If the most helpful and healing thing for you is to sit for fifty minutes in companionable silence as you color a ****ing dolphin, then the therapist's job is to sit there in companionable silence as you color a ****ing dolphin. That the therapist might find this boring says nothing about the needs of the client and everything about the needs of the therapist.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Maybe I am not explaining it properly. I am saying it in the context of me as a trainee therapist and t being judgemental of my process or lack as progress as she sees it.

Sorry for not really explaining it well, it made sense in my head and yet I was afraid of saying too much. I guess I wanted to protect my own t, me and the process!
I know from experience that there are lots of ts who have not done their work and therefore if we apply my ts view on this they cannot work with a client until they do their own work on themselves.
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I do believe that a therapist needs to have gotten their own issues under control before taking on clients. So I kind of agree with the therapist on this idea.
I did not understand what you meant in the first post.

[emlou019]

I think you would struggle to find a t who has perfected their journey and their own issues. There is no perfect t. As t's, we learn through our clients and develop empathy of each individual(s) journey. As well as finding stuff about ourselves. Not promising to know everything, just being there and listening. Therapy for t's is important through out a t lifetime.

I don't expect that anyone has perfected their journey (that's the nature of journeys) or to have everything completely resolved; however, I don't want a T who is still in the throes of their own emotional work, unstable, unpredictable, or in any way prone to bringing their own issues into my sessions. That takes being fairly far along that journey.

[WrkNPrgress]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Following my toxic session last night with t, this question has stuck with me.
T is a firm believer in this saying yet I disagree with her and find it to be judgemental. She has not been in same places or situations as me so what gives her the right to judge me and say that.
While I do believe that a t should work on their own process and be willing to do on going work on themselves it leaves me with the question. Who knows where a t has been and can they judge you and where you are?

I think that would be a very limited perspective and it greatly underestimates the process. A session is an activity between TWO people.

This is an artistic process in a way.