Shame..

BudFox posted this quote in another thread and it pierced me so precisely that I felt it warranted its own thread. I seriously felt like someone was looking straight into my brain when they wrote this (and Bud if you can tell us, I'd love to know)




Depression, anxiety, doubt. These are all just symptoms. Symptoms I have been able to effectively treat....in therapy, or with medicine, or on my own with self-care.

But the shame? Haven't figured out how to rid myself of shame. I've decreased myself of the emotional dependence on others....and THOUGHT I rid myself of shame. But under extreme duress, I still can find it there.

I'm not complaining. I'm doing well right now. I just realize that this is just a facet of me that I don't "get rid of". I just carry it.

The first one has brought shame up to me before. I find it an interesting idea.

We work on shame a lot in my therapy. Have you ever heard of Paul Gilbert? He has much to say on the topic. This is just the first thing I saw on a Google search but his stuff is well worth reading. He's developed compassion-focused therapy in an attempt to really deal with shame.
http://self-compassion.org/wp-conten...rt.Procter.pdf

There's a lot of stuff online - this is good too
http://www.compassionatemind.co.uk/d...ay_handout.pdf

A quick Google search brought up this source for the quote (OP, if that's what you're looking for).

You may find this video helpful

And I find it interesting to see it as an "idea" rather than something else. Might be interesting next time I'm in a tough place to back off and view Shame simply as an idea. Strangely helpful comment.

Yes that's the article where i got the quote.

This article describes a central aspect of my existence. But it also captures what happened with my last therapist, which was a recapitulation of past humiliations and rejections. The shame spiral was devastating, reaching its peak when she cut me off for good. And then after a while there was the inevitable eruption of rage. But the literal and symbolic target of my rage (my T) was now ignoring me, which only magnified the shame and rage.

This is why i now consider therapy such a dangerous game. And why i find the idea of therapists unilaterally imposing termination to be so abhorrent. It represents a rejection, a profound disempowerment, a potentially devastating break in connection or attachment, and more.

Bud, your quote struck me powerfully, too. A central aspect of my existence, too. Something that I would think more in the therapy business would understand but apparently, in my experience, few do.

One of my typical defenses against the feeling of fear and powerlessness about any abhorrent reality is to try to "solve the problem", to "fix it". So with this, too. But, again, I am struck with my powerlessness.

As von moxie pointed out in another thread, there is healing power in being able to put words to our emotions. But it often seems to me that I don't HAVE the words to express the awfulness of my experiences in therapy. Or my existence sometimes -- devastatingly disconnected. (To reuse some words that you used.)

I've been Googling "Shame" some and found this quote in a review of a book called "Shame: the Exposed Self" by Michael Lewis:

I hadn't really followed this thread because I truly believed that I wasn't ashamed of what happened to me but I think today I have come to a realisation. Trying to write a list of words that make me feel uncomfortable I realised that they tell my story. That is why I don't like hearing them because they remind me if what happened. I know what happened but I don't like to be reminded of it because it makes it come out of the box.

Thing is I think it needs to come out of the box in order to be dealt with. So why don't I want to show the list to my T. Because she will, through it, guess what happened and that will mean she knows. Will she start to ask questions, where will it lead? Why does this concern me, what am I afraid of. Well blow me down I think I might be ashamed of what happened, of all of it, of myself. So I came back to this thread because I remembered it was around.

My old T told me six months ago that I might feel shame but that it wasn't my fault. I couldn't understand her, no, not me, I know it wasn't my fault and I didn't feel shame. I think she might be right, though I am still sitting on the fence, albeit with arms and legs hanging over the side, just trapped by my ankle at the moment.

Thing is, what do I do with this. As the article so rightly pointed out I am now ashamed of my shame. I couldn't read most if it because it was too much for me, this snippet was about enough. Does it change anything inside of me? Not really, I don't feel any different than normal to be honest but I don't know how it will change my thinking or ways of being.

As if I needed another level of confusion.

http://www.nurturingpotential.net/Issue6/Shame.htm
I found this article very helpful in understanding my own shame.

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"Healthy contacting in a therapeutic dialogue has a transformative power. Jacobs (1996) calls this: The transformative power of the resolution of shame issues within the therapeutic relationship."

On the other hand… if a therapeutic relationship increases one's shame exponentially, due to mishandling or incompetence or client-therapist mismatch, then what? So many psych articles discuss the ways that therapy is the answer to various core wounds, but rarely do they discuss the implications when those wounds are deepened and reinforced by therapy itself. Might represent a point of no return. Now the client is a walking pustule of abject shame.

I am glad it was helpful even if strangely.
I actually don't know of another way that I would see it. I don't know what the choices are.

I wonder about this too and actually doing my research project on how the therapists shame can affect the therapeutic relationship.
Some therapists are not even aware of shame and particularly their own shame.
I recently read a fabulous book on working with shame in therapy by Christiane Sanderson, I would highly recommend any of her books.

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Me & My Therapist Are Working On This Right Now ...

This & Trust & Vulnerability ...

It's A Tough Row To Hoe & The Going Is Slow!

Aahhh, trust and vulnerability. Now there are some big topics. Hope it is going well, even if it is tough.

Interesting. I think My T's realization that she was not helping me but was in fact harming me triggered intense shame for her around failure and incompetence. This caused her to spiral out of control and to say and do many damaging things and to become primarily concerned with her own self preservation. I don't understand how a T can practice without awareness of shame. Doesn't make any sense.

Thanks re: the book.

Yes, it is shocking how unaware some ts are. They act on their counter transference rather than out of awareness. Sounds like your ts ego was very fragile, this is how most clients get harmed in therapy I imagine. I am sorry hat was your experience

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I share with you Brene Brown:

This is her first Ted talk. She's done alot of work researching shame. I find her work helpful. I recommend watching her other videos or her books.

One of the most important things I have learned dealing with my own shame is that finding the right person to bring your shame out into the light of day with is essential to dissipating it. Shame can not live in the light of Empathy. It takes alot of trust and vulnerability to get to that point, but it is well worth the work.

Thanks. Fragile ego, yes. But not just that. It was also that her professional persona obscured this quite convincingly. So when people exhort clients to trust their T and the process, I now think… do so at your peril. How much do really know about them?

My T lovveessss talking about shame.

Fragile ego, wounded ego, narcissism -- healthy and otherwise, shame. Words and concepts that I find hard to understand or pin down and yet they point to or touch on some essential difficulties I believe that I have had. Sense of self? How does one develop it if it isn't there or is "false"?

I know there are a lot of therapy ideas about that, but it's been my experience that without an adequate, functioning sense of self or realistic ego it's hard for some clients (e.g., me) to relate, so that hurtful, shaming experiences with therapists increase the sense of woundedness and shame. Then, round and round the cycle goes.

It's tough and I have no answers but join you in your confusion.

If one accepts the idea that shame can only be healed relationally, the question for me is whether a therapy relationship is a rational way to achieve this. Seems that only an authentic and mutual and spontaneous relationship can lead to real healing, and can such a thing be purchased?

I kinda thought I had a therapy relationship that held some potential for this, but it ended up compounding the shame, precisely because it was not authentic and not solid. It was a business relationship that could be terminated at any time for all sorts of reasons.