Shame..

Is the therapeutic relationship somehow supposed to do this relationally? That kind of makes my head spin. (And my ex-T thought me going to church was magical thinking... Haha).

I think the only way therapy would help me with shame would be give me somebody to tell about things that happened who won't tell people I know, and to get someone else's opinion on whether it was my fault, etc. Just hearing it wasn't my fault does help. it's easier to tell someone you feel safe with, but I don't think that's only a therapist or therapeutic relationship.

I'm a big fan of the articles/books by Pete Walker, and he's written quite a bit on this subject... and a lot of it really resonates with me.

Shrinking the Inner Critic
Abandonment Depression

Shame is what makes child abuse so horrific. The parent or other supposed trusted adult caretaker predates upon the innocent child then has that child convinced that they're to blame for what's happened to them ... As the abuses continue to compound day after day, that misplaced blame becomes toxic shame that leaves the adult survivor wrestling with years of heartache & grief to unravel ... It often takes years, if ever, for that adult to get to the point that they can even begin to trust another human being enough to allow themselves the vulnerability necessary to start peeling back the layers of shame they're buried under.

I guess for me the shame finally started dissipating when I could honestly put the blame and responsibility on the truly guilty parties, and being able to voice that and feel that was affirming. It took years (decades really) to be able to undo the negative messages of shame that I had internalized though. Until I could change my internal messages (not just superficially, but truly change them) from self-derogatory, self-blaming, self-condemning to messages that are proactive and validating and affirming, the shame still had that hold on me.

I was fortunate to have therapists who knew how to take me through that walk and process. It was a slow transformation (lots of three steps forward, two steps back kind of progress), but eventually I was able to get beyond the shame.

For me, the work really wasn't about the therapy relationship. It certainly helped that I had therapists that I worked well with, etc., but the healing really was within. The therapists served to give me a sounding board and help me see my way through the process: they listened to my story, they taught me skills that helped me process through that history and my current thinking about my past, they helped me clarify within myself where I needed to go and what I needed to do to get there, and they supported me along the way. But it wasn't the relationship that did the healing really. It was more the work I did in reframing my past and my personal understanding of myself that healed the shame. They served more as supports and guides along the way -- absolutely necessary guides and supports because I couldn't see my way out of a shoebox at one point -- but the work was always focused on me rather than the relationship. I don't know if that makes any sense or not.

I dunno, I thought that was one of the theoretical ideas behind therapy, the potential of the relationship to heal the damage done by past relationships that resulted in shame, deprivation, misattunement, etc. Re-parenting and so on. Not saying I buy this.

The three I saw all said the relationship was the most important factor. I don't know
They couldn't give a reason why though.

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My therapist has told me that he believes the idea that the relationship matters above all else can do a lot of damage. He thinks there is much more to it than that, and that the techniques a therapist uses are extremely important. I would agree with him on this.

We work on shame through activating my own ability to be compassionate to myself. I feel very much that my therapy is about getting myself to be kinder and better able to take care of myself. I've lessened a lot of my shame by being able to better regard myself as I would regard a friend who might be suffering, rather than as some uniquely unworthy individual who deserves to be in pain.

If that's true, and I'm not going to debate that here, then can you see how horrific it would be if/when clients place their trust in therapists and then are disappointed and re-traumatized over and over? II trust that my current T understands some things about dissociation in a theoretical or intellectual way. I trust that she will be in her office at my appointment time unless she notifies me otherwise. I do not trust that she cares about me in any personal way and in fact I don't believe that she does. She doesn't understand me and has shamed me on more than several occasions. It has taken awhile but in recent months I have called her on it. Time will tell if we can come to some better mutual understanding.

I wonder, though, if maybe I just need something else, but I haven't a clue what it might be. I've certainly tried spiritual appoaches, too. Still do.

Shame has been / is one of the hardest things for me to talk about in therapy. I don't talk about it directly in therapy -- my T caught on to it fairly early on though.

But, in some weird way, I have a lot of shame even in talking about shame because it makes me feel so 'not normal' -- so, just talking about how I feel about myself.

I tend to want to not allow my therapist access to those innermost shameful thoughts -- there's a deep sense of rage and despair at the thought of allowing her in. I don't know how to get past that -- if I talk about it with her, it feels like allowing her in and if I don't, well I'm stuck.

The closest I've come to dealing with it on my own is observing my thoughts and emotions and attempting to extend compassion to myself. That helps me calm down and remain on an even keel.

But, just observing constantly makes me feel a bit like a freak at times -- as in, if I were to hang out with other people and still just keep observing myself rather than feeling things. T pointed out that observing myself is a way of distancing and not engaging (it sounds really simple but it hadn't occurred to me).

Right now though, really feeling all that shame-filled stuff -- not just observing -- is frightening and overwhelming. So, observing is the closest I can get to it.

T does bring up the relationship etc at times but that's only when I talk about other relationship related patterns and she pops in with "How does that play out in therapy?". So, that's not the primary emphasis.

If she were to focus a lot more on the relationship, just out of sheer logistics, I'll run out of material to talk about in a couple of sessions max -- it sort of feels mind numbing somehow to me...but more power to those who can do so.

Seems like it is a common finding in therapy studies that the quality of the relationship or therapeutic alliance trumps all other factors. And that the various techniques all fare about the same. The ubiquity of the transference concept also suggests that the relationship is central in many approaches.

Since core shame is a relational problem, makes sense to me that it would be healed relationally. The brain is a social organ. But not sure a purchased relationship is a great way to go about it, though maybe is better than nothing.

I suppose therapists want to believe their particular techniques are the thing but personally i would be a little iinsulted if a T told me they would teach me how to rid myself of shame. That's just my take.

I agree that there's a lot of emphasis on the relationship in therapy in general.

But, I'm not sure core shame can ever be healed through a relationship (with a therapist or anyone else).

I honestly don't have any data to back it up but in examining myself, I can't imagine a relationship with anyone (no matter how positive, consistent etc) is going to make a difference.

And, of course in something as complex and deep-rooted as shame, it's incredibly hard personally to wrap my head around the idea of having someone who's a paid professional -- which does not necessarily preclude their caring (I do for instance believe that my T cares about me and I can point to specific instances) -- help me really root out something that fundamental.

Then again, I freely acknowledge that the way I do / perceive therapy may be very different from others who believe otherwise.

ETA: The hesitation I have around the paid professional bit may largely be in part because my brain can't get around the idea that they're paid professionals. So, someone else to who it doesn't matter may feel otherwise and get going on it without any hassles.

I can fully see how a relationship would help with core shame because it was helping with my last T. Slowly, granted, but with positive reinforcement and me believing that she genuinely cared and thought I was worth it (along with a lot of other things) I was starting to believe it in myself. She made me feel like I could be better, my words not hers. Better as in not feel so bad.

Thank you. Interesting articles

I think it really depends on their orientation. My therapist believes the relationship is very important, but it's definitely not the only thing. Transference isn't a big thing in his approach. His approach really works for me - I've been down the path with a therapist whose modality stressed the relationship as the main thing - that was useless for me, and I had no way of dealing with the traumatic feelings that emerged, and he didn't either. It was devastating. My current therapist and I work on concrete ways that I can help myself and take care of myself. It puts my own work and my own abilities at the forefront.

My therapist didn't tell me he would teach me to rid myself of shame - just to clarify in case you were thinking that was my situation. (I'm a little unclear as to whether you were referring to me.) I don't regard it as my therapist's job to "teach" me anything.

My last one did care about me personally, and then the relationship became ambiguous and felt like it meant more than it did or ever could, which resulted in a string of crushing blows, concluding with the realization that she did not care in the way I wanted, which made it relatively easy to get rid of me. OTOH, I cant see spilling my guts about my most painful sht in the presence of someone who did not care and was in the role of detached observer. Hence, I don't know how I could ever do therapy again.

Sorry didnt meant to imply that, I was thinking more generally about Ts who focus on technique and who might approach core shame that way, maybe along the lines of CBT with assumption that faulty thinking is the issue and it can be corrected. I still think humans heal via healthy relationships primarily, and in particular those that are reciprocal.