Attachment work or abandonment work?

You can't have transference and attachment without manipulation. These things happen precisely because the therapist is manipulating the client at the deepest level.

Unconditional positive regard, for example, is hugely manipulative and bizarre behavior. It's a fake stance, and deliberate fakery is by definition manipulation.

I dont see what skill has to do with it. If anything isn't their main skill manipulation?

Exacly what skills should a therapist possess in order to play "let's have an attachment relationship" with a real human being?

I don't think unconditional positive regard is a manipulation necessarily. Maybe depending on the therapist. Just looking at myself and what I think I might be able to do as a therapist (NOT going to try it btw), it could be a cultivated attitude. Almost anybody can and could do it but it might take putting some attention to it and practice so in that sense it could be a "skill". Again not necessarily a manipulation though it could be if the therapist's real, more basic attitude was "Give me the money" and "I don't give a s**t about you." Which could happen -- and I, for one, would have had a hard time picking up on that, maybe, because "I don't pick up on social cues", one of the issues I went into therapy with.

Based on my experience, the UPR (unconditional positive regard) was like a safe social environment, maybe like a catalyst, that allowed my own deeper interpersonal stuff to start to emerge.

But then, when my own interpersonal stuff, in a primitive form, tried to emerge -- my therapists' UPR disappeared!!!!!!! Major setback, re-trauma, etc.

My therapist was "triggered" she said, so it's like her own needs and reactions took over and she had only NEGATIVE regard for me. Managing one's own stuff so it doesn't do that is what I would call a necessary skill in what I would call "managing the transference".

I don't think she was consciously manipulative. To the extent that she didn't know her own stuff well enough, or recognize how incompetent she was becoming (because of another case she told me about -- boundary violation there of course), I got very badly hurt. And maybe she manipulated herself, and me, into thinking that she was competent to deal with my situation when she wasn't.

I think it COULD be possible for a therapist to have a real relationship with a real human being and for it still to be "therapy". But far too often, based on what we see here in this forum, it doesn't work out that way. It seems like there are many therapists who are NOT capable of it. And clients can't know until they get into the depths and get betrayed and hurt.

The "staged" aspect inevitably hurt me. I could feel my former T become frustrated with me. She was floundering. She then started to use a instance of she and I going hiking as a point of connection between the two of us, but all this resulted in was me beginning to question the connection I thought we shared. Now, make no mistake, I knew my feelings couldn't be reciprocated to the level I desired, BUT I thought that she might have cared enough and had a real life connection to me, enough so I could feel "safe" and we could utilize that, practicing secure attachment.

We hadn't talked about the hike, which happened in April, all that time. When the attachment began to be problematic, in mid-June, she went from not referencing it, to repeatedly alluding to it. "Like when we went on the hike..." and "I'm the same person here or on a hike..." and more examples. I became to feel apprehensive. It got the point where I dreaded her mentioning a hike, which really meant nothing to me.
It felt inauthenitic and insincere, manufactured to force an illusion of connection between the both of us. It was all she could do and use.

Each time she said it, emotionally, I took a step back from her. I no longer felt safe and the connection I thought we could utilize began to dwindle.

Not to mention how it hurt to feel this.

Exactly my point. This to me is evidence that the UPR was a sham, an act. Then the therapist's real self emerged.

I dont see that as a skill. That's more like repression of needs and emotions and judgements. I'm guessing that over time this causes psychological disturbances in therapists. It's not healthy.

My own therapist behaved one way for the entire process, then afterward on the phone she was very different. She went from fake self to real self. In hindsight the whole thing was a deception. She knew it, and I knew it. And by the way, to my earlier point, she tried to manipulate me into believing that my distress had nothing to do with failed therapy.

you know that negative transference is a thing too, right?

as in...you feel intense negative feelings towards your therapist.

How would therapy possibly work without unconditional positive regard? If therapists were openly judging clients for the very things that they probably need to talk about, no one would tell their therapist anything.

It is not real - they are play acting. They do judge clients -the ones who are better at it just don't let the clients know.
They admit it in their literature that they judge.

My point is that unconditonal positive regard is a manipulation. It's an affectation. As for what therapy would like without it, no clue.

Very much my scenario, as well.

May I ask you, how did you feel after termination? Did you despise her? Hate her? Heartbroken by her? And how did you move past it? I don't mean to pry, ignore my questions if you'd like...it's just that I'm in the middle of it.

I hated her. And very surprising, I wanted to hurt her somehow -- retaliation, revenge, etc. Feelings, impulses that were VERY foreign to me, very dissociated because of course they were very "bad" (implying I'm bad, too, etc., etc.) But as hard as that was it was intellectually somewhat hopeful since according to what I knew about trauma and dissociation it was "progress" that I could feel that way. But the impulse to hurt was in full swing, too -- and, I now believe, it was reasonable even though it came from a visceral, instinctive place. I wonder if many people's anxiety in therapy might come from "repressing" or keeping dissociated that same kind of reaction?

But my therapist really COULD NOT stand being hated and was afraid of my impulse and wish to hurt her, even though I told her about it just AS A FACT. (I learned as a child to deal with being hated sometimes by my mother and how to turn off fear when threatened by her, so I really couldn't understand at the time why the "superior" therapist would have a problem with those simple "skills".)

Eventually I connected the hatred and the desolation I felt at being rejected and abandoned by her to the way I felt at 5 or so being unseen, rejected, snubbed, etc., by some female relatives -- it felt like the whole world. And that it was hopeless for me to be wanted and appreciated in the whole world. And for me to have felt like that would have been rejected and disapproved, etc., too. . . So that feeling from long ago had been cut off.

When the connection was finally made, I went through 2 days of unbelievable, in the bed depression. I was pretty bad off for most of a month. I posted here on PC about it and since I was not outright rejected or ignored, I felt like the possibility that I was rejected by the whole world might not be true. It's what people write about how the horribly awful has to be fully experienced but of course it is so unbearably awful that's why it was cut off or otherwise defended against.

I also DID confront my last T about some stuff and we've had some continuing email and snail mail contacts about that. So it may get "resolved" enough to the point that we can talk. Or may not. I'm glad I allowed my "retaliatory" impulse some space and some input to my decision process. It's not all bad, it has it's reasons for being and it's place now in the larger "me". In some ways it is essential for real self-assertiveness, at least it has been for me. Or maybe it's just that when you cut part of yourself off, then the "self" that tries to assert doesn't have all of itself around to do the job.

Finding and reconnecting with those lost parts is part of the job of therapy. At least that's what they say and what I believed, even though I couldn't really know because the parts were still lost. But when the therapist couldn't stand those parts either, just as my family couldn't, fortunately I knew enough from all my years to try to help myself rather than trust another therapist. And so far, one year later, it seems to have worked out OK. Very, very, extremely, extremely scary and hard. But I'm retired and what else do I have to do? ;-0

I did go to some other therapists just to see if there were something I thought I might get out of working with them, to speed up getting better. But nothing really seemed like it would help so I didn't buy in again.

I hope this isn't too long. I don't mind talking about it. If it can help you get through things faster, I'm definitely glad to try.

I try very hard to stay away from these threads, for many reasons, but...to think there is some secret tenant between all therapists that transference is used to rationalize the therapy relationship as a whole seems absolutely ridiculous.

How do you get there? Sure, you read forums (as others have pointed out, seems a very small sect of the therapeutic population), and have read books, which I feel like you read between the lines to help support your thoughts on this entire topic.

That being said...I won't reply anymore.

can there actually be such a thing as 'unconditional' positive regard? positive regard seems plausible, but unconditional???

i'm not too convinced it can exist that easily in a therapeutic relationship, a relationship where those involved know very little about the other person. seems like there is the possibility of too many biases, either conscious or unconscious, that could lie just beneath the surface. and if that is the case, and the therapist is not transparent about those biases or even aware of them, then the T is not being fully honest in the relationship or could be manipulating the client to believe that they are.

Thank you for your response!! I really appreciate it and resonate with much of what you wrote, especially that which is in bold.

I, myself, curled up in a ball yesterday and just whispered, "I hate her. I hate her," repeatedly. I felt like a crazy person, because I NEVER hate the women in my life who- I feel- mistreat or abandon me. I usually defend them. Actually, the cycle goes that I eventually go back to these woman (after I've left a situation in some capacity) and I spill all my emotional beans, they reject me because I've stood up to them and they no likey and when they reject me, it actually feels good. Well, moreso, it feels like "this is how it's supposed to be." I'm acclimated to them rejecting me and I find solace in knowing i didn't hurt them and it's easier for me to move on.

I haven't done that in this case. I go from being sad and heartbroken, to hating and despising her. My emotions swing wildly on that pendulum. I don't know how to handle this...I NEVER get angry at women, so I'm unsure what's "right, wrong, fair, or justified."

Your response has shown me that there might be light at the end of the tunnel. I'm all over the place at the moment.

My ex-t really wanted to talk about this via a phone call. At times, I feel bad for her and I don't want her thinking I"m rejecting her. Then, at times, I hate her...I'm lost.

I don't know what to do with these newfound feelings. With the anger. This is all so alien to me.

I think therapists rationalize and distort what happens in therapy by many means, and invoking the vague concept of transference is one of the primary means. I got "there" from what these people themselves have said (books, blogs, ethics codes, scholarly articles, videos, and therapy itself). I don't see it as a deliberate and malicious conspiracy. More like a bunch of converts to a religion carelessly and stupidly trying to convert others, while making some cash and trying to shore up their own emotional deficiencies... and almost completely blind to the carnage left in their wake.

I am in full agreement with you Budfox, unconditional positive regard is a manipulation..its all BS..There is nothing genuine about it..forced love/caring because it says so isnt exactly genuine is it? and those who have been abused can sniff it out a mile off causing even more mistrust and re truamatization .

I think UPR is more of a natural outcome, not so much a
manipulation.

Most times when you learn more and more about someone, like when a T gets to know the client, they learn about how they think, what they feel, what their most intimate experiences have been...etc, you develop a more positive regard for them.

Many are quick to judge someone when taken at face value. But the better understanding you have of somone the more empathetic you are.

I also think many of us are prone to black-and-white thinking, hence the strong reaction by some to UPR.

Okay, fine, I'll bite.

UPR is not supposed to be something that therapists can 100% achieve. Neither are the other core conditions - congruence and empathy. They are qualities to engender and to aspire to and to very much always keep in mind.

Have you ever seen or spoken to someone, and made a snap judgement, and then stopped yourself, thinking "wait - that's not fair or true"? There you go. It's about doing that. It's not about stopping ourselves from making judgements in the first place - that's impossible. It's in our nature to make judgements.

It's really not that difficult to treat clients with UPR the vast majority of the time. I don't find it difficult, and there's nothing fake about it. If you understand that everyone is just doing what they can to get by with the tools they were given, and if you understand that your role is to be there for them and experience their world as they describe it, then you don't make negative judgements about them.

I know there are plenty of terrible therapists out there who still can't manage that. Maybe they have to pretend instead. That's disturbing. But that should reflect on them and how s**t they are, not the concept itself.

They are just "practicing" these idiotic concepts -apparently they are not meant to be taken seriously...

Also - if one considers who it is that decides they want to become therapists (read their literature - they often admit they are batshit crazy; look at Linehan - the dbt guru, the stereotype that they become therapists to heal themselves etc) - perhaps it is not surprising that batshit crazy people who hold themselves above others and come up with and try to implement batshit crazy things that they are just making up and then inflicting upon others as a sort of stab and hope kind of thing -it is going to end badly in not infrequent numbers.

I think it's pretty offensive to talk about "batshit crazy" people on a forum for people who struggle with mental illness. If only we could all be as sane as you, Stopdog.

Just talking about therapists in general and how I see them. It does not bother me if others think differently about them.

The irony of UPR is that if a client presented this way they'd be diagnosed with a personality disorder. If a therapist does, it's a "modality".

UPR is similar to love bombing. It's dangerous and pathological. Once a person habituates to this fantasy, how are they ever gonna break away, and how are they ever gonna cope with the real world, where NOTHING is unconditional? It's a good way to enfeeble people.

My T doesn't (didn't) do UPR... But I think part of its purpose is to facilitate safety so the client feels comfortable with bringing up anything and everything.

I'd never heard of love bombing so I looked it up, e.g.,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing

I think you have a point worth considering. In other words, UPR may not ALWAYS be "good", as I think it has been assumed in the literature and by many readers including me. Plus, it feels "good", so the client is not going to know about the danger in advance.

A client like me gets deeply attached. "Loving" the therapist like a child loves a parental figure. But the therapist doesn't love the client back, not in any way such as parent-child.

Unrequited love hurts. Don't care if it's indicative of me having "emotional issues" or "pathology".

But what therapist is love bombing??? My therapist is very affectionate and attentive but at most i get a text reply every day, she gave me a stuffed animal once etc.

I experienced love bombing as part of a toxic church environment . It's intense. And persistent. It doesn't just happen during church services a few times a week ( comparable to therapy). Those people wanted to be with me ALL THE TIME til i was hooked.

Nothing my therapist has ever done is even close to comparable