Attachment work or abandonment work?

In describing my FOO I used to describe the main focus of what I learned to do, and what the older women did, as "We build ego for a living." There's obviously more to it than that, but how to describe it? I don't have any words that I really like, because I loved those people and. . .believed/wanted to believe they loved me.

So the UPR fed into a fantasy life, for me. Maybe/probably other clients do not have it. But I did. And learning what is fantasy and what is not -- took me a lifetime, including 55 years in therapy on and off.

I also had a very disconnected rational side so I could get along in the world and make decisions. Only it came to a point that -- what WAS the point? No interest in living, etc.

I "fell for" the UPR. Or the idea of therapy. Or something. Didn't really feel the unrequited love. Maybe/probably it was numbed out, as I had numbed out in childhood. Maybe the UPR just fed into my ego or something. I don't think I had a very healthy one going into therapy. We in the family were all kind of dependent on each other for the "ego building". No one was "allowed" to do it for herself. A kind of enmeshment, maybe.

I majored in math and love abstraction. An escape from the feeling/social reality of my (family) life? Maybe. But I still find value in abstraction. And find little useful, really grounded abstraction in psychology. (How can one have "grounded" abstraction? Look at physics. I spent 8 years in graduate school in cognitive psychology trying to work toward a start toward better theory in psychology and was not allowed to do an "independent" dissertation and have it fairly evaluated or rejected by the committee, so I quit. Plus my husband was dying. An idealization of the reality of the academy these days, yes, I know.) The "touchy-feely" feelings and values focus on life has merit. But not exclusive merit.

I think Budfox's observations and analogies have merit, too. Not exclusively perhaps but as an alternative point of view I definitely welcome them.

So painful, indeed.

In my experience it is just like a mood altering drug. Feels good short-term, very addictive, destructive long-term. And clouds judgement.

Unrequited love drives people to sui (immortalized in famous Goethe's novel). When it happens in therapy, it's even more destructive and humiliating. Could be like a parental and romantic rejection at the same time.

Also if a client is feeling rejected, but is also dependent on the therapist and so keeps going back, it could be like experiencing the rejection over and over. I found it was like having a weekly IV drip of poison.

Where else would rejection or unrequited love be used as an alleged tool for healing?

This is how it felt, for me.

I see no evidence that therapists as a group are normal. A lot of them are probably unbalanced and very needy. Many are probably getting "emotional sustenance" from their adoring clients, as one critic said. Also they are making a living from the process, of course.

In my experience it was a co-dependent co-attachment. The dishonest part is that I was paying and openly pursuing needs, while she was getting paid and covertly pursuing needs. When her needs were threatened she cut me off, which was difficult for her, but she has a bunch of other clients to fill up her emptiness.

Good point. He was unable to control his countertransference. Yes, you are right, he was unbalanced but I didn't see him as being needy, as if he had cut that part of himself off and me bringing up my neediness pushed his buttons big time. He has a good reputation as an excellent therapist with other people. I suppose that may be true as long as he didn't have to deal with someone who pushed his buttons like me. When someone is rejecting you, and that is your issue, my behavior went to where I wasn't even me. But then, after it all happens, I felt guilty and hated myself even more. I can't imagine any board would take my side against Mr. Perfect. And this is part of the mind **** to me. He kept saying, you haven't made any improvement, his consultant kept saying, you haven't made any improvement. The truth was, I was MUCH WORSE. The consultant said I hadn't made any progress. Nobody concluded that I was worse. Nobody then, anyway. I'm moving on but I'll never be able to erase that. I would like to never remember it. I still would like to do something about it in a positive way, but I have no clue as to what to do.

agreed

and i appreciate the open discussion these topics have brought up

I don't see what's alternative about pointing out that therapy attachment keeps the client separate from the alleged attachment figure 99% of the time, and this is much closer to abandonment than attachment. Of course it is.

And this arrangment accounts for much of the pain and suffering. Of course it does.

Or that UPR is similar (not the same as) to love bombing. Of course it is.

To me these are self-evident realities that ought to be noted explicitly. All the rationalizations (eg early life stuff sensitizes one to abandonment) are separate dicussions and distract attention away from basic realities. Seems certain things are never dealt with head on. Always a red herring appears.

Your views are alternative to the view of therapy that was presented to me by therapists, by books about therapy, by popular presentations of therapy and therapists in the movies, on TV, etc. They are alternative to the view that therapy and therapists are there to help me, which is something that I was looking for, being in distress at the time.

When one goes into therapy, the "self-evident realities" that you see may not be so apparent. And maybe to some people they seem not so "self-evident" or even if they are, they may seem irrelevant.

But they are a lot closer to self-evident and relevant to me than I would have thought 10 years ago.

I don't think you were dishonest -- you were paying and openly pursuing attachment needs. That seems pretty straightforward and honest to me. I think your exT might have been in over her head and had no idea how to handle these things as frequently seems to happen. And the client is damaged and has little recourse. Now the abandonment sometimes comes from a defensive, maybe angry T, who knows there's little you can do about it. But they somehow justify to themselves that they are above the law of do no harm because it was the client's fault, or maybe worse, they know it was their fault and refuses to be truthful.

Do blame yourself for what happened, your T, or both? Did she apologize during the last conversation you had? A direct apology seems to be rare. Sorry if these questions are intrusive, if so, please ignore them.

Sorry for the stupidity, what is UPR?

They all seem to not know what to do after a while, especially when attachment gets thrown in there and things slow down to a slog. WTH?!

Smith's recent comment. He actually admitted that some therapists aren't ready to handle attachment needs. Wow. I disagree about the ending portion and his use of "slow down." I'd bet that this leads to more terminations than it does a "slowing down."
Just meeee two cents.

I did not see things this way when I was in the middle of it either. Had no reason to question.

The biz expects compliance from its customers. Any sort of critical inquiry is considered suspect.

They've positioned their product as mainstream. They sell the therapy relationship as the primary means for healing grief, loss, loneliness, trauma, and any behavior or mood that deviates from "normal". A relationship with a close friend or family member is considered "alternative" in this respect.

In reality therapy is a radically unorthodox way of relating to people. The primary way of healing is real life relationships, as it has been for all of human history. Not saying therapy does not have a place.

Allopathic medicine has done same. It's positioned as mainstream but in reality its newfangled and mostly poisonous methods are decidedly alternative to established, sane methods of healing (like eating real food).

I meant my therapist was dishonest. I was completely honest. I did my part, played the role, expressed feelings openly. Yes she did all the things you mention. It was right out of the therapist handbook -- in case of rupture make a fuss, blame client, admit no fault, gaslight, abandon.

We had a few phone and email interactions post termination. Then she cut me off. I got a third party to lean on her and we had one more phone converstation, where she finally apologized. It meant very little. It was an insult really, to have that squeezed in at the end under duress. It was all about her. It was her therapy. That's the core dishonesty. Exploiting the client covertly.

I dont like to think in terms of blame, but I hold her accountable. I was out of my mind. I take responsbility for my actions though and see both sides. The problem was the basic construct. It was f-ed from the beginning. But she made a terrible mess of things.

UPR = Unconditional Positive Regard

This is very serious, and I take it as such, but I can't help finding the humor in your sarcasm, make a fuss, lol.

Sorry I missed where that quote is from? I would like to read it. That is practically verbatim what my T is doing ( or was doing. We are on hiatus due to her being quite ill). If it's any solace there ARE Ts like mine who can handle the attachment issues with gentleness and love

Calilady, can you link where your quote is from? I believe I'm going through it. The agony of being attached to T and loving her and knowing I am not loved.

Emotions: To Avoid or to Heal

It's in the comments.

I wonder if he's beginning to get an "inkling"? So sad to read some of those comments. It could have been me 5 years ago, still hoping, believing in the therapy fantasy. But once we terminate -- by our choice or the therapist's or both -- then nobody in the "system" sees us anymore, so how would they know?

Very happy for you! And glad you found one! But I tried so many, and they don't come with a guarantee, and when therapy fails it leaves you more broken, for awhile at least, plus poorer and feeling more used and taken and discarded.

It would be great, I think, if some of the "good" or competent ones, including Dr. Smith perhaps, could begin to recognize the harm done by the ones who are still too damaged internally themselves. Calling it a "bad fit" or blaming it on inadequate supervision or consultation is -- well, to my mind -- insane. When, if ever, will a client find a good one? The professionals are overlooking a lot of contrary evidence I suspect. But who's counting?

It would be great if some of the competent ones could bring light to the situation regarding the other therapists. I agree in that blaming it on inadequate supervision or consultation is insane. One problem with my termination was that the consultant had her own countertransference towards me as evidenced by my Previous T telling me, my consultant told me that she thinks you are continuing to manipulate me. ??? What do I say to that? For the record, my current T has repeatedly told me that I am not manipulative and that I don't try to manipulate him even if I wondered I was. IF both the consultant and the therapist think you are being manipulative, then guess what, they are going to treat you that way. I thought it was unprofessional anyway for him to say, hey guess what the consultant thinks of you? How childish of him.

How therapists define the problem largely effects how they feel towards you. Shortly after, I was terminated. Ignorance can be a huge factor in these cases. My previous T would tell me, you're neediness is childish. (duh, that's where it came from). Then he would say, Can't the adult part of you take care of the child? Ignorance. My current T treats this part of me with kindness, patience, and consistency and I am, albeit slowly, starting to treat myself with compassion when I feel abandoned. It remains a struggle. But with Previous T, he shamed me, like your adult should be able to take care of it so why are you making this choice to feel this way? Ignorance. My current T just told me that I was not making a choice to feel a certain way, that my feelings were genuine.

I know it seems like I demonize one, (true), and I idealize my current T, but is it idealization if it's true? I don't think he's perfect, he just treats me kindly.

So, I think that one major factor in terminations is ignorance of the therapist. Maybe they haven't been trained in their schooling in attachment issues, but then they shouldn't be allowed to treat people like us.

I hope I made sense and didn't just ramble on.

I don't think there is any valid way to judge the competency of a therapist. Education tells you nothing. Claims of past success mean little, because god knows how they measure success, and interpersonal chemistry is impossible to predict and is not replicable.

The only way to know if they are capable of wrecking things is by getting to the point where they have wrecked things.

I don't even konw what competent means. All the skills attributed to "good therapists" are vague and amorphous and could be possessd by anyone. Seems the main requirement is good acting skills.

The whole idea that there is a cadre of skilled clinicians whose training prepared them to heal total strangers by enacting a simulated relationship... gotta be one of the all-time great cons. In truth I don't think they know what the hell they're doing, and just wing it and hope they don't get exposed as a fraud or wind up in legal trouble. Or maybe some of them are so deluded they have no idea what is going on around them.

Regarding Rogers and UPR:

"Here [unconditional acceptance] Rogers confuses reality with fairy tale; he confuses being warm with being real. The two are not necessarily the same. In the real world, people do not radiate warmth and acceptance no matter how we behave. This is not a realistic attitude and hence not one that is necessarily therapeutic." -- Arthur Janov

To me thats evidence the basic construct is faulty. One adult regresses to the role of "baby" and attaches to another adult playing the role of "parent", who knows what to do by way of training... these things work in the proper context, but in a laboratory setting?

Also what good is it to become attached to what is basically a non-person? Even if some real feeling of connection develops, the feelings are directionless and it's a dead end. It's a relationship confined to a little box. This alone could destroy a love-deprived person. It's the weirdest sort of cruelty.

I contend that whatever good comes from these things is in spite of the quagmire that is therapy, not because of it.