[precaryous]

This may sound funny coming from me because of the bad therapy experiences I've been through...but what's wrong or undesirable about idealizing T?

It's not a secret that I idealize previous T. I was sooo lost which makes me extremely grateful PrevT 'found' me. It's incredible she didn't exploit me, too. She 'saved' me. I can't adequately articulate how close I feel to her. I dream about her all the time.

I brought it up in therapy with T yesterday. T explained it but I still don't understand. I will talk to T about it again.

It's confusing.

[LonesomeTonight]

I know for me, one issue with MC was when the transference was more erotic. If I saw him as this ideal partner, then where did that leave my H? Or, even with the paternal stuff, if I picture him as this amazing, perfect dad...then I'm wishing for something that doesn't exist because he's not a perfect father (and he's discussed ways that he isn't). If I'm wishing I could somehow be in his life (obviously couldn't be his daughter...or partner, but like as a friend) and I'm thinking he's perfect...then realizing who he is in session isn't who he is in real life can help diffuse that desire a bit. He's said before he's an a-hole in real life, and I wouldn't want to hang out with him, but then later, when I said I doubted that, he said it was a bit of hyperbole. But he meant more that in therapy, the T is just focused on the client's needs. The client shouldn't in theory worry about the T's needs. But a real life friendship or romantic relationship isn't like that (parent-child is a little different, I guess).

And I'm sure the idealization is totally fine for many people, just describing a situation where maybe it's not so great...or at least where it can make transference/attachment more intense. And maybe make someone want to rely/connect to their T more than someone in "real life."

[Shazerac]

What you are going through happens a lot. I'm glad you talked to your T about it.

Long time ago I had an erotic dream about my ballet teacher. It was rather disturbing because she was female and so was I. I consider myself straight.

I chalk it up to admiring her and she was somewhat of an authority figure for me.

[Ididitmyway]

I think, there is nothing wrong with idealizing a therapist or other mentor-like figure like a teacher, trainer, priest etc IF it is helping you and not distracting you from your life.

I idealized some people who were in mentorship positions in my life and it was helpful to keep a positive image of them in my mind as role models I never had as a child but needed badly.

I think, the cases that are mostly discussed here, in which idealizing becomes destructive, are those when the client keeps obsessing about the therapist to the degree that this obsession starts affecting the quality of their life. I've been through this, as many others on this board have, and this is something I don't want to ever experience again. That kind of idealization is an antidote to the very idea and the essence of therapy because there is nothing therapeutic about it. From what I know from my own experience and from listening to others, the vast majority of cases in which idealizing the therapist becomes destructive are those that include intense erotic transference.

[ElectricManatee]

I don't necessarily think idealizing my T is totally a bad thing. To some degree I accept that that's just where I am right now. Plus I am incredibly grateful that she's well-trained, caring, and committed to helping me in the ways that I need her, for however long it takes. It would be impossible for me to not have strong positive feelings for anybody who had that place in my life.

The thing that's difficult about it sometimes, though, is that my idealization of her makes it harder for me to accept that she's human, will make mistakes, have lapses in judgment, do things I don't agree with, etc. I think the challenge is for me to be able to integrate all the good things about her with all the little things I don't like. If I didn't think so highly of her, this would be less challenging. But it seems like a more nuanced way of viewing relationships, and I want to get better at doing it.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by precaryous

.
T explained it but I still don't understand. I will talk to T about it again.

It's confusing.

How did your T explain it?

Like I said in other post, I recently told my T that I need her to be as I make (see) her to be. This came up because I hosted a game night. The first one of these, I invited her to the event and she declined (was going to be out of town). I really wanted her at the event. This one, I told her that I didn't want her there because of needing/wanting to see her as I see her. I felt that if I was to see at game night, I might see behaviors or mannerisms that doesn't fit my picture of her and that might take away from my therapy. I know and strongly believe that I only see elements of T's personality. I believe what I see is genuine but very limited. I need to feel that level of attentiveness at this time in my life by this person. I am ok with this information and place in my therapy and development.

Many years ago I idealized my first t. She ended up being horrible, and I learned my lesson.

My new t is great, and wonderful, but I do not idealize her. She can be very frustrating, and she is just a normal person. She has her faults. I just choose to try to see the positives.

I have a lot of people idealize me because of the position I am in. I dont like it at all. The public sees what they want to see. They dont seem to understand I am just a regular person also. I act stupid sometimes. I do things wrong. I make mistakes. I can be a real dummmy at times. I do not like it when people put me on a pedastal. Its too much pressure to look up to.
That is why I do not do that to my therapist. She does not have to try to be perfect for me.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by Elio

How did your T explain it?

Like I said in other post, I recently told my T that I need her to be as I make (see) her to be. This came up because I hosted a game night. The first one of these, I invited her to the event and she declined (was going to be out of town). I really wanted her at the event. This one, I told her that I didn't want her there because of needing/wanting to see her as I see her. I felt that if I was to see at game night, I might see behaviors or mannerisms that doesn't fit my picture of her and that might take away from my therapy. I know and strongly believe that I only see elements of T's personality. I believe what I see is genuine but very limited. I need to feel that level of attentiveness at this time in my life by this person. I am ok with this information and place in my therapy and development.

I don't remember.
I agree, I only see parts of T's personality and life, too. I feel my T is genuine, as well.

I feel so lost sometimes. Maybe I need T and PrevT to be heros. I need them to know more..or know how to help me interact more successfully in my day to day life. I'm not naturally organized, calm or confident. I guess I need to see all of that in them. Maybe I fill in some of the blanks in our therapeutic relationship the way I hope it is..

I'm not sure I understand your last two sentences- are you saying you need to see your T in a limited way because you may be disappointed? But you're ok with the relationship right now?

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I think, there is nothing wrong with idealizing a therapist or other mentor-like figure like a teacher, trainer, priest etc IF it is helping you and not distracting you from your life.

I idealized some people who were in mentorship positions in my life and it was helpful to keep a positive image of them in my mind as role models I never had as a child but needed badly.

I think, the cases that are mostly discussed here, in which idealizing becomes destructive, are those when the client keeps obsessing about the therapist to the degree that this obsession starts affecting the quality of their life. I've been through this, as many others on this board have, and this is something I don't want to ever experience again. That kind of idealization is an antidote to the very idea and the essence of therapy because there is nothing therapeutic about it. From what I know from my own experience and from listening to others, the vast majority of cases in which idealizing the therapist becomes destructive are those that include intense erotic transference.

Thank you for sharing your experiences and feedback (to all of you!)

It's a relief, really, to consider there is nothing wrong with idealizing T and PrevT if it's helpful for me. I'll need to recheck with T because I thought she was saying it would be better for me if I didn't idealize them so much (and I was doing something wrong.)

Something that is confusing to me- is (usually) the nature of the therapeutic relationship is the therapist does not (usually) over-disclose to the client. But then I seem to be hearing T say she sees us as equals..and it would be better if I see T and PrevT more realistically. I don't know how this is possible.

In the end, I feel the way I feel about them and I don't see that changing. Maybe that's ok.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by precaryous

I'm not sure I understand your last two sentences- are you saying you need to see your T in a limited way because you may be disappointed? But you're ok with the relationship right now?

I PM'd you a long answer, in short -
Yes, to both questions. I am ok with where things are right now. I do see it as a journey and growth. I expect it to change as I change. At which point I don't believe seeing all parts of her will have such an impact on me.

[BudFox]

For me idealizing the therapist was a direct path to destructive, obsessive longing.

I think it's dangerous because it sets up unreasonable expectations, feeds savior fantasies, and makes real relationships seem mundane and intolerable. It's a drug.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I think, the cases that are mostly discussed here, in which idealizing becomes destructive, are those when the client keeps obsessing about the therapist to the degree that this obsession starts affecting the quality of their life. I've been through this, as many others on this board have, and this is something I don't want to ever experience again. That kind of idealization is an antidote to the very idea and the essence of therapy because there is nothing therapeutic about it. From what I know from my own experience and from listening to others, the vast majority of cases in which idealizing the therapist becomes destructive are those that include intense erotic transference.

i just wanted to add that i reckon this also happens to those experiencing intense maternal/paternal transference as well.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

i just wanted to add that i reckon this also happens to those experiencing intense maternal/paternal transference as well.

I agree. I've seen this a lot too. I also think in many cases those two types of transference (maternal/paternal and erotic) mix and merge, which is the most intense experience of all, I believe. Now, THAT is a recipe for trauma if it gets intense and the person keeps obsessing about it.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I agree. I've seen this a lot too. I also think in many cases those two types of transference (maternal/paternal and erotic) mix and merge, which is the most intense experience of all, I believe. Now, THAT is a recipe for trauma if it gets intense and the person keeps obsessing about it.

A little off topic, I wanted to share what has been going on for me: I have to say that my obsessing and needs are changing around my transference. It used to be that if I did any emailing between session, waiting for a reply was extremely distressing. At times, just the time between sessions was painful.

Now, I still frequently check for replies, I am not in distress while waiting and the time waiting can be much longer with no distress. I still cannot handle a missed session (planned or unplanned) and I miss her between sessions; the time is not painful. If a session needs to be moved so that I still see her 2x week, I am able to adjust to the change and do not find the "normal time" a distraction.

The maternal transference is still intact. There are times where she is needed/wanted as mommy. Right now, I am hoping that she can be mommy for some of tomorrow's session. Tomorrow may come and I might not have that want/need. I know if tomorrow comes and I still want her to be that for me, she will and maybe that is why the feelings in the transference is changing for me.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I agree. I've seen this a lot too. I also think in many cases those two types of transference (maternal/paternal and erotic) mix and merge, which is the most intense experience of all, I believe. Now, THAT is a recipe for trauma if it gets intense and the person keeps obsessing about it.

yup! that was me... a big'o cluster f&*k of both erotic and maternal transference chaos. yippy!

from what i have come to understand about developmental truama, erotic transference is an expression of the unmet affect regulation from the mother to the infant/child and later in life that unmet need for connection,regulation, and safety can be expressed as erotic longings. so ET is very much inter-wound with maternal/paternal transference.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

yup! that was me... a big'o cluster f&*k of both erotic and maternal transference chaos. yippy!

from what i have come to understand about developmental truama, erotic transference is an expression of the unmet affect regulation from the mother to the infant/child and later in life that unmet need for connection,regulation, and safety can be expressed as erotic longings. so ET is very much inter-wound with maternal/paternal transference.

Yup. You got it. In the old-fashioned terminology it's called "Oedipal complex", which I don't have any problem using, but it has long become such a dirty term that when one uses it they get crucified To me it makes no difference how we choose to call it if we are talking about the same thing.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Elio

A little off topic, I wanted to share what has been going on for me: I have to say that my obsessing and needs are changing around my transference. It used to be that if I did any emailing between session, waiting for a reply was extremely distressing. At times, just the time between sessions was painful.

Now, I still frequently check for replies, I am not in distress while waiting and the time waiting can be much longer with no distress. I still cannot handle a missed session (planned or unplanned) and I miss her between sessions; the time is not painful. If a session needs to be moved so that I still see her 2x week, I am able to adjust to the change and do not find the "normal time" a distraction.

The maternal transference is still intact. There are times where she is needed/wanted as mommy. Right now, I am hoping that she can be mommy for some of tomorrow's session. Tomorrow may come and I might not have that want/need. I know if tomorrow comes and I still want her to be that for me, she will and maybe that is why the feelings in the transference is changing for me.

Yes, some people may not experience this obsession as a problem. Looks like you are one of them. To me what you are describing sounds awful. I hate to obsess about anyone in this way and I feel miserable when this happens (which doesn't anymore thank God). If I were you I would see this situation as humiliating and disempowering, but I am not you and what would make me suffer apparently doesn't make people like you suffer. So, I guess, for you this kind of obsession is okay then. But most stories I've heard were from people who suffered from the obsession about their therapist and wished they hadn't had it.

By the way, I am in no way think that there is something wrong with you or with me. I really believe that some of our traumatic experiences would not have had such traumatic effect on other people for thousands of reasons that have a lot to do with how differently we all see life, ourselves, relationships etc.

But I also believe that many people wouldn't have even stepped into the situation that I and many others had stepped into because they weren't an "vibrational match" to it. Right now, I am not a match to those types of situation as well. It is absolutely impossible for me now to get exploited by the same type of male "father" surrogate figure that exploited me before because by this time I have resolved my "father issue" and I have no need to have yet another imaginary "father-lover" in my life on whom my happiness would depend. So, I imagine that other people who didn't have my issue would've walked out of the situation in which I got stuck because there would've been nothing for them to try to resolve there.

Oedipal complex is different.

[missbella]

It was damaging for me because of the corollary, seeing myself as hopelessly inferior. Rather than bolstering my own self reliance, I surrendered my judgment to people I viewed as powerful authorities. I let them boss me, judge me and act in their interests rather than mine. Though I had my own predisposition, the therapist strongly fed and defended this dynamic.