[seeker33]

So II had this discussion with my T about CBT. It doesn't work for me, I'm literally allergic to it and I get anxiety and stress as soon as she tries to use it on me. I have to say she's open to doing simple talk and exposure most of the time, so that's fine.
However yesterday she said I have a cognitive distortion. I was saying that I'd feel weird about going to the meet up from high school after 10 years. The reason is that I'm 30 and still living in my parents house (although they live elsewhere atm so technically I live alone but the property is their). I work in a family business that's far below my education level. The only "normal" thing I do is private tutoring a few times a week. No boyfriend, no children, my friends live far away, we keep in touch online.
So I said that I think it's normal to feel weird compared to my peers (I went to a high school for highly intelligent students and all of them are very ambitious).
I also said that I in my inner feeling believe I'm strong and had to show great courage in my life. That I may be stronger than my peers in some ways. However I said that compared to standards of normal healthy population I'm a loser.
I think what I said is quite realistic and rational.
My T says it's a cognitive distortion.
Is it?

I said I much prefer accepting reality than doing mental gymnastics and believing something just because it is positive, only for the sake of being positive, even when that would mean being out of touch with reality.
I said I find CBT with its right and wrong answers manipulative. That's how I feel. She asked me to explain how exactly it is manipulative. I feel it is but I'm not able to explain it to her. Any ideas or thoughts about this conversation?
Am I distorted? Is my T pushing something unrealistic? Is CBT manipulative - why/why not?

[TishaBuv]

You’ve used three different comparative words; normal, stronger, and loser. If you pick your statements apart logically, analyzing those three words, your statement was logical. How do you define loser? Is it synonymous with abnormal and weak?

As for apprehension about your 10 year reunion, nearly everybody feels like you do. See the movie Romy and Michelle’s HS Reunion. I didn’t go to mine. It wasn’t for fear of feeling like a failure, but for other social anxiety reasons.

[starfishing]

Ugh. Yes, simplistic, overly rigid stuff like this is a good example of why CBT drives me up the wall too. So many therapists use it like a bludgeon to just insist that you should stop believing something--which can feel like gaslighting, or manipulation, or just plain disrespect, depending on how it's handled and what your personal history is. It seems like it might be more productive to explore what seeing yourself as a "loser" means to you, what your feelings are around the reunion, etc., in more detail, rather than rushing in to label with terms like "cognitive distortion" that aren't useful for you.

If you feel allergic to CBT and don't want her using it, the therapist should respect that--end of story. It's very odd to me that she's insisting on it even though you've made yourself clear.

[seeker33]

Thank you both.
I think I've got another argument against CBT which I felt for a long time but it didn't come to my mind now. It's picking up random isolated words and dissecting them instead of actually listening to the main message I was trying to say. It drives me crazy. Once, about a year ago she asked me to come up with 5 words and sentences and then she checked if they were logically correct as if she nad marking a math test. Fortunately it was a relatively easy topic so I just laughed inside but if she did that on a more serious topic I wouldn't return.

It is exactly manipulative in a way you can't say what you mean, what those words mean to you, but you have to give correct answers that they will like. It's like writing an essay about a book. You can't say your opinion, you must guess what the teacher wants to hear.
That's how cbt feels to me. I could give her all the correct answers because I can guess what she wants but it absolutely wouldn't mean I believe it or that it's helpful in any way.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I don't think CBT itself is manipulative. I did CBT for a short while, before my T realized I didn't have an anxiety disorder.

We would take apart specific situations, and think about them rationally. That was a discussion like you'd have in psychodynamic therapy, my T helped me explore how I felt about the situation.
Then based on that analysis we would try to reframe my thoughts. For example I might feel scared and sad because I had a conversation with my mom, and obsess over the fact that I might have upset her. My T would talk to me about it, help me see that if she is upset then that's kind of her issue, and I have to sit with the feeling of guilt for a bit, but that my mom ultimately will still love me. And when I think that I calm down, because I know it's okay to have these feelings, even if they are negative.

Only having positive emotions is as unhealthy as having too many negative ones. Negative thoughts and emotions are to some degree normal. I do not think 'right/wrong' decisions should be part of therapy, it's about integrating both positive and negative aspects and making them coexist in a way. I personally did not feel as though CBT tried to push distinctions between right and wrong onto me, but maybe I just did not do it for long enough.

[stopdog]

I found it dismissive, treated the client like they were an idiot, and damaging. I refuse to ever go near it again.

[seeker33]

She didn't insist on using it at the moment, she was talking about undefined time in the future. She wants to do mindfulness now. However she insisted this was a distortion and she asked for an explanation of why I feel logical thinking and right /wrong answers are manipulative. I do want to answer her question so I'm looking for more thoughts on this.

[stopdog]

To answer the question in the heading - I think all therapy is manipulative.

I used CBT-like cognitive exercises on my own for certain issues, mostly when I wanted to regulate behavioral responses to my impulses better, specifically to inhibit destructive reactions to impulses. I found them helpful. Never did CBT with a therapist though. My last T, who claimed to be eclectic and CBT was one of his modalities, told me once that he would not attempt to use it with me because he thought I would likely find it ridiculous. he used the word ridiculous. Probably true if someone else tried to apply it on me.

[seeker33]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I used CBT-like cognitive exercises on my own for certain issues, mostly when I wanted to regulate behavioral responses to my impulses better, specifically to inhibit destructive reactions to impulses. I found them helpful. Never did CBT with a therapist though. My last T, who claimed to be eclectic and CBT was one of his modalities, told me once that he would not attempt to use it with me because he thought I would likely find it ridiculous. he used the word ridiculous. Probably true if someone else tried to apply it on me.

:-) Ridiculous! That's exactly what I think.
I do understand that there may be problems where it can be very helpful, but not for me. I do much better with somatic /physical and art therapy.

[ruh roh]

This is really frustrating to hear. First of all, I think your concerns are all valid--they are your definition of a non satisfying life that you want to move away from. Is it that hard for them to listen to you and help you navigate a way forward instead of saying that your thinking is wrong? Sheesh. People achieve things in life--career, relationships, personal goals--because they don't like where they are or who they have become in some regard. To call that dissatisfaction a disortion is a manipulation because it's steering you toward what the therapist wants you to think and do. There are other options, like exploring what's brought you to this place in life, or to just let you express your feelings so that you can sort through things. You could do CBT back on her and ask her to come up with alternative ways of viewing your struggles besides cognitive distortion.

I, too, have similar struggles and feelings about being a social loser, though that's not my term. Calling it a cognitive distortion does nothing to help me. It's a cheap, lazy, insulting technique.

Perhaps CBT is also annoying and manipulative in a way because it may feel like disciplining children. Personally, it always makes me angry even to hear when Ts treat clients as children, bot that might (at least in part) be my issue as well. I would never accept that from a T, or from any external "authority". But when I did it on my own, discipline was exactly what I lacked/needed (and not any sort of deep dive), so probably why it was helpful as a self-regulating technique. A bit like the DBT skills some people find useful - mine was just very specific to a certain area, not a broad range of emotional regulation methods. But I am pretty sure that if other people "analyzed" my responses in the same way and told me how to react (or how not to react), I would have asked them to take a hike.

[seeker33]

She's trying to help me move away, we're working on this issue and she was very pleased when I recently told her I think I might be able to move away next year. She said she was proud of me.
That's why I absolutely don't understand why nie she's saying this.
I asked her if she thinks living in my parents place at 30 is normal and if painting is the same achievement as having a baby. Her answer was in terms of who decides what exactly is an accomplishment and that my achievements are valid... This made me feel absolutely terrible and stressed because instead of agreeing with her I came up with more and more arguments supporting my claim and I was ruminating whole day. It was very stressful to me.
I would understand if she b did this if I said I was an absolute loser. But I explicitly said "I'm not a total loser, just a small one". And I also said I'm as strong and courageous as a person with my trauma and hypersensitivity can be. But I'm not successful in terms of normal healthy people.
Maybe I am crazy but I see nothing wrong or illogical with this analysis.
Her trying to persuade me in not even a small loser makes me much more frustrated and makes me search for more and more arguments why I really am worse.

[seeker33]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Perhaps CBT is also annoying and manipulative in a way because it may feel like disciplining children. Personally, it always makes me angry even to hear when Ts treat clients as children, bot that might (at least in part) be my issue as well. I would never accept that from a T, or from any external "authority". But when I did it on my own, discipline was exactly what I lacked/needed (and not any sort of deep dive), so probably why it was helpful as a self-regulating technique. A bit like the DBT skills some people find useful - mine was just very specific to a certain area, not a broad range of emotional regulation methods. But I am pretty sure that if other people "analyzed" my responses in the same way and told me how to react (or how not to react), I would have asked them to take a hike.

So true for me as well. Also in my case it's about control. Unlike my body my environment and other circumstances, my mind was the only thing in my life that I feel fully in control of. Allowing T to directly control my thoughts is extremely scary and giving up even the very last part of me that I can control.

[WishfulThinker66]

Hmmm, doesn't sound like any CBT I've participated in. No, i don't find CBT manipulative. It is intended to be an eye opening experience in that the idea is to recognise the negative automatic thoughts that don't work for you and form some alternate positive ones instead. I don't see how this is manipulative at all. Most CBT work is done outside of the therapist's office in the way of logs, journals, and worksheets/books. It requires a great deal of commitment and work on the part of the individual to make a success of it. Yes, it is not for everyone. Not everyone is up to the task of all the homework and, of course, it requires a 'buy in' to the process. One part of CBT in fact is about assessing your present thinking styles and recognising how they affect you negatively. What CBT may be occuring is that I think your therapist is merely trying to get you to see yourself in the light of these patterns. Consider she is trying to help you. This is not being manipulative. It is not being mean. It is an attempt to have you understand yourself.

[seeker33]

I know her well enough to know she's not being mean. I just absolutely don't understand what's so wrong and illogical about my assessment of my situation? I think it's perfectly objective.
Yes, I'm strong and mature person and battling my mental issues is a proof of courage. However no one will persuade me that my current lifestyle is normal or that I have nothing to feel weird about when I compare myself to my peers. I don't think objectively in a standard shallow social situation, I can brag about managing my anxiety it the supermarket n the same way as my classmates can talk about their travel adventures. And since I went to a kind of "special" high school, most of my peers have traveled a lot.
How can I rationally and objectively say it's the same?

I'm absolutely willing to do homework on my own, I've spent huge amount of time doing therapy work outside of the session, that's not an issue at all.

[stopdog]

Was she perhaps trying to get you to not compare yourself to peers? Like that is not a useful exercise?

[seeker33]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Was she perhaps trying to get you to not compare yourself to peers? Like that is not a useful exercise?

Yes, probably that was her intention but I don't think she handled it well. Emotionally I felt she does care about me and she's trying to help. That in itself is therapeutic for me. I just don't understand her theoretical approach.
I guess I'll just consider it the way it was - good intention, incorrect approach.
But anyway I want to talk with her about the whole issue of "rationality" because it keeps appearing every now and then and we don't have the same opinion on this.

In principle I'm all for rational analysis, I just can't stand such direct questions so I feel like I'm taking a test at school and like I'm being judged and "corrected" for wrong answers.

I think sometimes Ts try to over-normalize situations in order to appear supportive, and it becomes totally unrealistic, if not destructive. I had a version myself in the past, in a period of my life when I was intensely dissatisfied with my achievements (or lack of them, my sloppy efforts etc), life conditions, social standing, many things. But I saw it very clearly how I put myself in those situations long-term, with my own decisions and wrong actions - no one else was even slightly responsible. It was a crazy life and I kept adding more and more destructive things to it.

The T I was seeing at the time tried to soothe my dissatisfaction and self-hatred by claiming it was normal, and tried to make me believe it was due to early life experiences that led to unhealthy coping mechanisms. I really hated that approach - it felt like he was shifting responsibility - instead of encouraging me to continue taking responsibility for whatever I put myself into and change the situations in the present reality (what I was dissatisfied with), he wanted me to vent about my childhood and stuff like that. That was not CBT, but I definitely thought his ideas and approach were distorted, not my own assessment of my present reality. It was not helpful at all.

Later, I figured that the whole thing was more projections of the T himself - he had very clearly proven an irresponsible, reality-distorting, blame-shifting person who was at least as stuck in his dogmas/acts as I was in my self-destructive behavior. The difference was that, I think, he did not see the dissonance between the reality of situations and momentary emotional reactions/ his avoidance of responsibility.

I did not have an issue comparing myself to my peers much, more wanting to be aligned with my own standards and values but failing because I gave in to momentary impulses too much. The T actually tried to show me how accomplished I was relative to my peers (average population with my background and educational level), but could not understand that I did not care about that at all - I wanted to stand up to my own values and ambitions. He tried to convince me that my quality standards were way too high. But it did not achieve anything - another person can not talk me out of my value system. Long story short, my problems were resolved by applying discipline and strategy myself in the longer run. Therapy helped me nothing in that. In fact, associating myself with people who had similar values and standards helped more than anything. In a way, I think we all have our own perceptions and versions of "reality". It's rarely helpful to preach to someone and claim theirs is wrong.

I personally found ACT more suited to me as I found CBT invalidating.

[Taylor27]

I took 6 weeks of CBT last winter most of it i think it is manipulative it's geard at a specific goal in mind. I find the approach is not very helpful because i find the therapist can be too judgemental and very goal orientated. It makes me feel like a child my therapist knows so he tries not to do too much CBT with me. I do think CBT would work for people that had specific goals and a time frame they had to work in. Also i find CBT therapist expect to see results and if it doesn't happen they blame the client.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I found it dismissive, treated the client like they were an idiot, and damaging. I refuse to ever go near it again.

Can you elaborate, SD? I read so much CBT hype and would like to hear your viewpoint.

[missbella]

On the face of it, I see no problem living in family-owned property or working in the family business. I don’t think the therapist should set client goals. I think it’s all about what you want and creating your life. It’s hard for many young people starting out.

[velcro003]

I was completely against the idea of CBT, and DBT even though I knew little of both. Then i went to an residential center for 3 weeks-and that is mostly what was practiced. It took me mot of the time to make a leap of faith that maybe some of these techniques might help. I will say that I never felt like i was being condescended, and all the therapists liked my stubbornness and un-willingness to just jump in and “believe.”

They also said take what you like and leave the rest.

[BudFox]

LOL. Sounds like she has the cognitive distortion. She assumes her interpretation of your life automatically supersedes yours, and therefore your interpretation must be distorted if it does not match hers. Your thinking sounds clear.

Her insistence on forced positivity over an honest reckoning with reality is just cheap pseudo-spirituality.

Therapists need everything to be about your internal conflicts rather than about external reality, so they can set about changing you in their image. Your suffering is assumed to be fixable thru internal tweaking by the puppet master who sits in the slightly higher chair.