i dont know what to think anymore. T says this or that and it sometimes sets me off... don't know when that is appropriate and when it's just me and my issues.

Don't know how to trust someone. i seriously have no idea.

he says he cares.. what does that mean? i'm not joking. i don't know

when he does not give me what i feel i needed, what do i do? should i be angry? sad? upset? indifferent?

i tell him. i do. i want to be a whole person. but i do not understand these things. i do not know how to act, think or feel.

i told him on the phone i didn't want things to snowball before next appt.. and he very jokingly said "just stop it!" i laughed hard, it was funny. i just don't know how to stop it or what to feel instead.

i suck as a human being.

why cant i be people too? what happened to me? would i have been different in a different environment growing up? would it have mattered if someone could have noticed that i was a different child and could have dealt with that? (i was intelligent and extremely inquisitive.. which also made me more difiant)

i don't know... i am having a hard time believing in the possibility of real change, real help. i dont see many people just doing so well with therapy, fewer getting results. i don't feel i can be helped and i cannot envision what that changed me would look like.

maybe i am paying a lot of money to just feel bad about myself.

[pachyderm]

I'm having what may be similar problems with my T. I leave the session, or more accurately sometime after the session, with a frightening sense of confusion. I have been trying to figure it out, and have made some progress in doing so. I am reluctant to say much about it here, partly because I still do not understand it well enough, and partly because many of the reactions I get here are not helpful. Shall we (I) say that I feel fairly sure that my therapist reminds me of my mother in some of the things that he does, and that I have a hard time distinguishing between the two. I have thoughts about the T that I do not want him to know about, and that causes my mind to blank out and forget what my actual thoughts are. Of course, with my mother I did the same sort of thing because any time I had a "wrong" thought and let it leak out (which I could not help as a child) I was likely to get severely punished. To the extent that I believed I was in peril of my life. This was an ever-present feature of my childhood, lasting many years. Most of my memories of my childhood are gone.

The problem is, that I see my T (and many, most other people) as having the same sort of problem that I do. That is, thought-censorship. I think I am not wrong about this. He really does do (say) things that I feel he does not understand why he says them. He has an automatic response to what I (and others I have observed) say or do. He does not see himself doing it. It is called counter-transference -- and he is unaware of it. In my experience MOST if not all therapists do this. Most PEOPLE do it. I do it. But now I am aware of doing it. My perception of how widespread this unawareness is panics me. It is horrible.

Trying to communicate this to the T is very hard. I cannot do it when I am confused (which is most of the time in session) -- or rather, when I try to do it in my confused fashion he does not get it -- or actually rejects it. Even if I am not confused at the time, and try to relate this to him, I think he will reject it. Like most people, he sees this kind of feedback as an attack from a parent-figure. Instead of listening, he talks. He reacts with contra-diction (counter-speech) to my speech. Instead of hearing my fears, he wants to "cure" them by rejecting them, by "explaining' why they are incorrect. Many here do the same. In the name of "help" they do not give time to listen first. It does not help. It frightens me more. His "re-action" to my speech gets into my own mind whenever I try to formulate a thought, and stops it cold.

There is a history of mental health people needing too badly to "help" the sufferer, and producing treatments that harm rather than help. Did anyone watch "The Lobotomist" on PBS last night?

[Perna]

MzJello, I've seen enormous change in you in the last 6 months. Your inquisitive side has come out rather than your knee-jerk, automatic snowballing. Yes, things still snowball but not as often and not as quickly. Your avalanche doesn't swallow up whole villages anymore?

You heard, understood your T, and laughed when he said, "Just stop it!". Think about yourself last summer, would you have laughed then or been insulted he said that shallow, too pat answer? Would you have been able to write this post back then?

It takes time. Let it. I think you laughed at "just stop it" because it's an enjoyably painful paradox to be stuck in, like the one I always felt I was in, "not being able to box my way out of a wet paper bag". The biggest problem is we keep going at these things with our head and one can't use one's head for heart matters. You can't "figure it out," it's not linear.

One of the most pleasant, comforting, helpful things I learned/figured out in therapy is that it's all a process. Sometimes I picture it kind of like a path through the woods, wild flowers and tall trees sometimes, bogs and dangerous footing other times. My T is "with" me but not in front leading, it's my path and I have to "lead". T is just companion, sometimes dropping back when the path gets narrow, sometimes going first and helping me across a tricky spot, suggesting where I should put my feet. But time is passing and I'm living on, moving on to. . . wherever I'm "destined" to move on to. When we look back we can see where we've been and sort of see how we got to where we are. However, we can't look forward and see where we're going, we just have to keep working our way there and trust that whatever comes up, we'll deal with it; climb the rocks, shoot the rapids, get a little fire going to dry our clothes after we fall into the creek :-) etc. One's T is just a companion though on this journey, for the space of however long we're in therapy (between towns :-) T's been on other trips like ours but not our specific trip. I know my T cared because, as companion, our trip is partially their trip too? If the trip gets truncated, they have to find their way, alone, back to "their" particular town in their own journey. Yes they are on many journeys, or helping weave many pieces of life cloth at the same time, if we can jump meaphors now and be in T's weaving room, but if you leave your loom, there are other looms but yours being empty until it's moved out of the room is a sad, lonely sight for T. And you were weaving such an interesting design, never seen before and T was into it, watching how you worked and how you were weaving those defiant little pieces of velcro into it to give it texture and make it stick to itself in some places and give it added depth and beauty

I'm having too much fun here, LOL. Yes, it's very confusing. I grab a feeling expression or two from people I respect and take them at face value instead of trying to think about them. "I care". Take that as a fact and look for how your T tries to get across that caring. Look for where it is instead of concentrating on where it isn't? When you get pissed, start with, "T cares, so he didn't %#@&#! me off on purpose so that means. . .(1) I'm pissed because I don't understand something here (2) T doesn't see anything here that would %#@&#! off other people so what am I seeing differently (3) What exactly did T say again? Maybe I'm pissed because I'm anxious or afraid of something in what T said. . ., (4) etc." Keep your view on yourself rather than "out there" with what others are doing and sometimes you can move quicker. Climbing the rocks can be easier than trying to figure out who put them in your path or trying to get someone to come move them out of the path; focus on your moving ahead rather than on the path and what's on it. Yes, sometimes we need to move rocks or wait while we get others to move things out of the way for us but that's what therapy is, learning to assess what's in front of us and how we want to respond to get us closer to where we want to be. Arguing that the rocks shouldn't be there in the first place is neither here nor there. They are there and have to be dealt with.

you know perna... your message would have been lovely to me even an hour ago... and i appreciate the time you put into it. right now i am heart-broken and crest-fallen.

i was proud of myself.. i thot i had made big changes too. it wasa stupid thing for me to grasp for.

i asked T for a short message... to give me just something to use as a tool till friday... i am trying to not use my old patterns of thinking but i don't have the ability to replace them with anything yet... it didn't need to be much of anything, could be some of what he said yesterday on the phone even... just something tangible i could listen to because those old voices drown out anything new i try to do.

i thot that was reasonable. i was so very proud of myself. i made a big step... i thot.

i thot wrong.

it wasn't enough. not high enough, not far enough, not enough.

i'm not enough. i've neer been good enough for anyone before, i don't know why it'd be different now.

all i asked T for was a small map, or compass, just for the little path ahead until we can meet again. i wanted to walk it myself and was proud of the climb i had finished... all i wanted was something to hold onto. was that too much to ask?

pachyderm... i dunno.. i don't know if i follow what you mean.. can you give an example? i am sorry you have communication trouble with your T as well

[pachyderm]

> pachyderm... i dunno.. i don't know if i follow what you mean.. can you give an example?

An example of what? My mind is frozen.

My point is, I think, that I do not see him listening. That is not what he is doing. Do you have any idea what I am talking about? As a person who is acting, as a person who is doing something, he is NOT listening. Have you ever experienced the awareness that someone is listening to you, someone who is listening to the "subtext" of what is going on "in the background" with you?

Most of the time, "conversations" with people involve one person saying something, then the other person saying something, then the first person saying something, then... They think they are listening to each other. But there is precious little ACTIVE listening, I think. Can you visualize someone NOT responding in any obvious way to something you say? Someone paying attention to you but not saying very much? Someone LISTENING? Listening for the next thing you say, and the next, for the story behind what you are saying?

Do you experience that happening?

[krazibean]

perna i looooved your metaphor. its so funny cause thats exactly what therapy is like.

[MissCharlotte]

Responding to initial post, so forgive me if I missed something in the intervening posts.

Jello,

You don't know how to respond to T because you never learned, through your mother/father. You do have emotions, human emotions inside of you. They are just buried very deeply because you became really really good at taking care of you. So, you don't suck at being human, you are in fact, very good at it!! Bravo!

((Huge hugs.)) I can sense your deep pain. I wish I could tell you what to feel but only you can tell you. I don't even know how I feel right now!!

How's this for a starter: If you were watching a movie and you were the main character, how would you feel? Would you feel sad? Protective? Would you cheer you on to cry? Describe those feelings in words. Maybe that's how to begin to figure it out.

Please take gentle care.

xoxoxoxoxoxo

Peace

(((Fluffy)))
It sounds like you need a HUG!

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Don't know how to trust someone. i seriously have no idea.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This takes time, Fluff. It's okay that you don't know how right now.

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he says he cares.. what does that mean? i'm not joking. i don't know

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I don't know him, so I don't know either. This would be a good question to ask him. Mine told me that he cared for me as a human being. This was his response to me when I told him I wanted him to like me as he would a friend/family member. It clearly was not one of his best responses, LOL. I wrote back to him and said things like I know you care about me like an inhabitant on Earth, etc. I think when one says he/she cares, that it means a different thing to each different person.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
when he does not give me what i feel i needed, what do i do? should i be angry? sad? upset? indifferent

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

You should let yourself feel what you feel at the moment! You should let your T know, no matter what feelings you are having. You can't think, okay in this situation I should feel angry, and up come the angry emotions. It just doesn't work that way

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i tell him. i do. i want to be a whole person. but i do not understand these things. i do not know how to act, think or feel.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Me neither. But, that will come.

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i suck as a human being.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

According to whom? That's not how I see you. I know how you feel, though. I can definitely empathize with you.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
why cant i be people too? what happened to me? would i have been different in a different environment growing up? would it have mattered if someone could have noticed that i was a different child and could have dealt with that? (i was intelligent and extremely inquisitive.. which also made me more difiant)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

You can be what you want to be, when you figure what that is. Things may or may not have been different in other circumstances. But you're here now. Keep pushing up the hill! I know that we will someday cross over the top and be able to go downhill for awhile!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
i don't know... i am having a hard time believing in the possibility of real change, real help. i dont see many people just doing so well with therapy, fewer getting results. i don't feel i can be helped and i cannot envision what that changed me would look like

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Fluff, there is ALWAYS hope.

I know I'm giving you advice on things that I am also suffering through. Why are we so perseverative? Because there is always hope! We all CAN do this. I think the main ingredients are Patience, Acceptance, and loving-kindness.

[pachyderm]

Amazing!

ok, i get you know.... yes... absolutely, we all do it and most people are never aware they do it.. they don't say, wow that must hurt... instead they say so that was like i did X blah blah blah

had that happen here last night in chat.... i was in a bad state of mind and very ditressed... a couple of friends were listening, they were trying to help and it was so appreciated. i needed care and someone to listen... but another member who "who does not have a mental health issue"(yeah, puuuuuhleeeeze) Decided to "therapize" and evangalize me. i didn't need CBT ********, i needed validation and acknowledgement. i dont come here for text book pat answers, i come for the support and to listen to others pain too. i was absolutely irrate... in my state of distress her idiotic and thoughtless blabbering could have pushed me over the edge. i wish to god people would think about that before they open their yaps.

they teach active listening to emergency workers and hotline people... maybe you wouod get something out of that? is there a book maybe you could take to your T? i think the last thing you say is a better explanation

i just have these things happen, like not getting what i feel i need (and a resaonable thing)... i know it bothers me, but that is all i know... i don't know if there are emotions there other than something nagging me that it in't quite right... or what emotions happen are not intelligible to me. i see a rorschach(sp?) blot. A blob.

after the call i got in response yesterday i am pretty defeated. i'm apparently not good enuff. Nothing i do is good enuff even when i gave my best. i was proud of myself and he just walked on it and moved on. now wouldn't he be shocked if i move on.

i am going to make an appt with aanother T for my usual monday tme as T is away.i'm going to explore the possibility of someone else who may be able to work with this need i feel i have

i am tired of T not being on the same side as me... i want a team to fight my issues... not spend my time heart broken because he makes me feel bad

[pachyderm]

I am with you, I think ---

[sunrise]

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MzJelloFluff said:
after the call i got in response yesterday i am pretty defeated. i'm apparently not good enuff. Nothing i do is good enuff even when i gave my best. i was proud of myself and he just walked on it and moved on. now wouldn't he be shocked if i move on.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">So you called him yesterday and his call back was not what you hoped for? What do you think he would he say if you told him that next session? That he didn't know what you needed? That he knows what you want but doesn't want to provide that to you? The "wouldn't he be shocked if I moved on" comment sounds like "tit for tat." Is that what you want?

I think seeing the other T one time in his absence has possibilities. Maybe a chance to get the neutral opinion of a third party. Sometimes we don't know what we're missing until we experience it. With my first T, I thought we were OK, but with my second (current) T, it is so much better. With the first one, I just didn't know what was lacking and in fact didn't sense a lack. Maybe you will find some qualities or insights with the substitute T that will help you decide if it is worth continuing with the current T or not. I will be curious to hear how a session with a substitute T goes and if you are able to open up on the first visit. Good luck!

[Perna]

You might want to watch it with seeing another therapist; I did that (and didn't even have a problem with mine, she was just gone for a long time) during a time mine was away, got an online therapist and even had a cut-and-dried, non-related situaiton to discuss with her but when my T came back, I had the two of them and that was distracting and I told my regular T about the online T and she said she didn't think it was a good idea (I agreed) but then I had to "get rid of" the online T and that was complicated for me.

nm i don't know how to explain. it's not how you think. i'm deeply sad and i dont see many options.

i wasn't able to get an appt anywhere.. the wait list was a month.

you're right. another T won't be any better.

i see my options are fewer then.

[MissCharlotte]

((((Fluff))))

I too am working through the aftermath of rupture. We too have repeated a pattern. Although I felt like we were back, I realized that the only back I had was my own. I do not feel the connection like before. And I don't want to right now.

I really get where you are. For me, I realized that I feel that T has died, like my father did.

Can you look at somewhere in your past where a similar pattern played out?

I am not yet ready to continue as before either. And maybe "as before" does not exist.

Yesterday I calmly stated that the only thing I could think of to do was to try and work it through but that I had no idea how to do that. Then I told him a dream and the rest of the session was supportive. I'm not ready to let him in again. We'll see.

So....can you just put all those other options aside and just go. Just go and be. Stay where you are.

(((((((Fluff))))))))

Therapy sucks.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sister said:
I am not yet ready to continue as before either. And maybe "as before" does not exist.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Wow, that one really hits home for me. Kind of like Thomas Wolfe, "You Can't Go Home Again." My relationship with T is different than it used to be and sometimes I would like it to be like it was in our earlier days together. I can be sad about that. The whole coach/therapist dichotomy. I guess any relationship goes through stages and change. They don't remain static, they evolve. Can be positive, can be sad.

Fluffy and Sister

[Perna]

I find that kind of profound, sunrise :-) It reminds me of a conversation with my T about symptoms and how it can be sad to give them up, even when we don't "need" them anymore and they've become just annoying habits.