i wuv you dinah

thank you for not leaving me
i cried
i cried because i was pretty sure i was going to lose you
and i guess i still might
but i was so sure i'd lost you already
thank you

[Dinah]

(((Alex)))

You won't lose me.

Not unless you want to.

I didn't want to. But I thought I would. Guess its like that 'if you love something set it free' kind of thing. I kinda came to an acceptance place of probably having lost you. We will see... Keeping up contact without a common forum happens sometimes. A lot of times. Most times. We will see... Acceptance. Acceptance is the key.

Sigh.

Therapy tomorrow... I think we have to talk about why we find it hard to talk. We find it hard to talk because there aren't words. There aren't the words. This heavy feeling. Sinking. Heavy. Sleepy. Numb. Makes it impossible to communicate with language. The pain is too much. I can't bear it without it overwhelming me. So the sessions are a dance around the pain. How does feeling the pain help? Just makes it the case that I need to spend the next few days in bed plagued by the sinking heavy numb feeling... I don't see what is to be done. Feel heavy when I think of going to therapy tomorrow... What is the point? I don't know. Wish he could hold me but of course he can't.

[Dinah]

Do you know what the pain is about?

I understand that wordless feeling. For me, a lot of times the answer is allowing myself to sink to a new level of being, to where the pain is coming from. When I do that the words almost seem to pour out, and often surprise me with the content.

I do some sort of meditation thing, where I locate the source of the pain, and quiet myself, and try to move to where the pain is. I imagine opening doors along the way. Once I get to that place, I can almost feel the pain moving from the knot in my belly to spread all over my body, so that my arms and legs feel the pain of sadness. And at that point, I speak.

It's likely all in my head, but it works. The reason it works may be more the meditation and centering. I'm not sure.

Do you trust your therapist enough to try? It takes a lot of trust.

The funny thing is that while I was always afraid the pain would overwhelm me if I let it escape from that ball in my belly to my entire body. But somehow it actually made the pain feel less. Like maybe the space I had allotted it wasn't big enough, and squeezing it into that space caused too much pressure.

Mind you, I only feel safe doing it *in* the therapist's office.

But that's me, and your experience might be completely different. So take it for what it's worth.

((((Alex))))

Nah, I don't know what the pain is about. It feels... Wordless. I just become speechless. Mute.

That was the way I started out in therapy. Then CBT. I had to say something or I was being uncooperative. And then I felt like I couldn't say anything right - so what was the point in saying anything at all. But I distinctly remember that it took a great deal of time before I was able to attempt to verbalize at all. Then that kinda got shocked out of me. With therapists trying to find cognitive distortions in what I was saying. I became so very aware of all the possible cognitive distortions and I was careful to reframe all my thoughts. And then I was back to not being able to say anything at all. My therapist has (over the past year) earned my trust. To the extent that I know I could say anything, anything at all. And even if what I said was paradigmatic of cognitive distortion #1 he wouldn't classify it and attempt to counter it as such. He would just listen.

But still I can't talk. I know he won't criticize, condemn, or counter, or query. But still... I'm right back where I started of simply being unable to verbalize. I don't know what is wrong.

A theory is that verbalization makes the unmanageable manageable. Maybe that is part of my resistence. I remember... So many nights... This immense pain and heavyness and despair... This feeling... To put words to it can never convey it. Putting words to it... Is a disservace... a denial... Of earlier me. Its NOT to be true to my experience.

Maybe I should talk about that.
Cause I think he feels it. I think he can feel it.
And he isn't afraid of it - except insofar as he is concerned about me.
That I can cope. That I can leave it behind when I leave.
wasn't big enough, and squeezing it into that space caused too much pressure.

[Dinah]

That's understandable. It's also expressing your inability to speak. Have you expressed these thoughts to your therapist?

I have trouble findings words too. I am a very visual person. I see images more than thinking words. During one session a while back I had a really upset stomach, so bad I had to lay on my T's floor. This created an interesting transformation and she encouraged me to start describing what I saw. We never got to what was causing these images in that session but I felt a lot of relief afterward. Very few of those images have come back to me. We are dealing with the recurring ones. It was weird how it worked.

Now when I am really struggling, she offers me a part of the floor instead of sitting in a chair.

I can see how the stereotypical therapist couch came to be.

Hey slip,

Glad to know I'm not alone in having trouble finding words. I think it is kinda cool that you are so visual. That you are able to describe visual images to your therapist. Are you into art at all? Just wondering if you are into creating or viewing art.

For me... I guess it is more a feeling. It is funny... I remember shortly after my first hospital admission. One of the p-docs (in training) was giving me a physical exam and I told her I hurt. And she asked me where. And I was kinda puzzled... But figured somewhere around my stomach. And she asked me where more in particular... And I was really puzzled. Not that kind of pain. She didn't seem to understand that there could be a non-physically located kind of pain. I know now that it was emotional pain. Emotions... Who would have thought. Maybe she did get what I meant but found it weird. I didn't think it was so weird...

Maybe my therapist is trying to get me to do something similar to what helped you with your therapist. Instead of trying to get me to describe the feeling... He seems to be inviting me to feel the feeling. To feel it. So I can convey it to him in that way. So he can come to feel it to by way of empathetic attunement. And that will alter the feeling because I'll be able empathetically attune to him feeling it with me and his feeling calm and collected in the face of that. Sympathetic and not condemning. And then maybe... That horrible feeling won't occur to me outside therapy. Like how conveying your images helps them not occur so much outside therapy.

Maybe... That is the point. I never really thought of it like that.

I like the idea of lying down. The floor, a couch, whatever. I've suggested it to my therapist and he kinda ignored it... Maybe because I kinda need to see him to stop being lost in the feeling... But lying down has always had an appeal to me.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Hey. Nah, I really do have trouble talking to my therapist sometimes. Not trouble talking exactly... But trouble talking about anything meaningful.

Today... I was so sure that he was going to ask me about why I found it so hard to talk. But... He didn't. I had a horrible couple of days this week and I sent him an email about how I really hated myself and felt like stabbing myself with a knife... He asked me how long that feeling lasted... And I told him what prompted me to feel that way and he said... Or he asked... Whether my hatred / rage at myself was like my mothers hatred / rage at me... And of course it was...

And he seemed to be inviting me to feel the feeling again. Of my mothers hatred and rage aimed at me... And maybe I kinda did a little... But I also felt mostly numb. And... Wanted to stay that way because I needed to go to a talk after seeing him and I wanted to be composed for that...

And that happened a couple times during the session. He seemed to be inviting me to feel something. And I kinda did... And he didn't force it. But he seemed to be inviting it. So maybe... That is his response to me really. That it isn't so much about what I tell him but what feeling I show him.

So I guess slip might well be onto something.

And I feel a lot happier now. Thinking that that is what we are up to now and sort of understanding how this is supposed to work... Understanding is important to me.

How are things for you, Dinah? Are things ticking along... Or is there some dissonance or... How is your therapy relationship going?

[Dinah]

I'm not really ok, but I'm not at the moment actively miserable.

Yesterday was my thirteenth anniversary of therapy. I saw him today, and I brought a card, and a small rock. The rock was to symbolize long term therapy being like a river flowing over a rock. Over time the water shapes and smooths the rock. Over a very long time.

But it just happened to be one of those sessions where we really weren't connecting. Nothing awful, no arguments. Just not really attuned. I should have held the stuff for another time. But I didn't, and it was ok.

[Izzyparker]

Maybe giving him the rock today was good. When you left he would have the rock to hold and think about you giving it to him today. Maybe he reflected on you. Did he know it was your therapy anniversary? I do not even know my anniversary. I just know the year and month. Then again, I keep getting my wedding anniversary date mixed up.

[Dinah]

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Izzyparker said:
Maybe giving him the rock today was good. When you left he would have the rock to hold and think about you giving it to him today. Maybe he reflected on you. Did he know it was your therapy anniversary? I do not even know my anniversary. I just know the year and month. Then again, I keep getting my wedding anniversary date mixed up.

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My therapist isn't the sort to reflect on me after sessions. Likely within a few weeks, he'll have forgotten how he got that rock. He'll pick it up and say "I think someone gave this to me." He'd already forgotten the metaphor that was the reason for the rock. Even though we've discussed it very recently.

He didn't remember of course. He said "You're right! It was April 3, 1995. Well... of course you're right."

My therapist has many fine and useful qualities. But he has a lousy memory. Although that can be, on occasion, a fine and useful quality. I can tell him things many times before they start to sound familiar to him. As you can imagine, that's useful in any thirteen year relationship.

[Izzyparker]

You probably underestimate his abilities. You mentioned earlier that he told you abut the other stones/rocks on his shelf. If I was a betting person, I'd bet he remembers who gave it to him and why. However, I can understand why he doesn't remember each client's anniversary. That would be asking a lot. Probably because it might be important to us, as clients, but not "special" to the therapist.

Sorry that you aren't really okay... but glad you aren't actively miserable. Was the rock... You or him or the therapy relationship? Maybe... He is ambivalent about the rock analogy rather than... Uncomprehending / forgetful? I'm sure he does think about you sometimes... Sure he does. I'm surprised at my therapists lack of memory at times, but I guess different things seem significant to him. He does remember the strangest things...

Those disconnected sessions often leave me feeling a little bland and numb and yucky... Not sure what it is that makes a session into one of those sometimes. Combinations of things, I suppose.

I always laugh when you say 'my therapist has many fine and useful qualities'. I guess I used to read that as your really really really really trying to be charitable. And now I read it as a kind of acceptance and resignation and kinda making the best of the way things are. Not sure how to convey the tone... I guess I still laugh a little. Maybe... The fondness. Thats what I missed before.

I bet he won't forget who gave him the rock. And what it symbolized either.

But I guess you know him better than me.

[Dinah]

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Izzyparker said:
You probably underestimate his abilities. You mentioned earlier that he told you abut the other stones/rocks on his shelf. If I was a betting person, I'd bet he remembers who gave it to him and why. However, I can understand why he doesn't remember each client's anniversary. That would be asking a lot. Probably because it might be important to us, as clients, but not "special" to the therapist.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, the quote actually came from him. One of the rocks he found, and he explained that to me. The other one he said that he liked it, and I looked at it and said I liked it too. That it looked kind of like a heart (the real one not the valentine one). Then he said he thought someone probably gave it to him. I figured my rock would get the same explanation in a few weeks.

It's ok. I know that he cares a lot about me. I'm the only client he's ever had that has seen him this long. And we got through evacuation from Katrina, and post Katrina distress together. I know he cares a lot about me, if only because of sheer longevity. But that caring won't make his memory any better. Which is ok. I care about him exactly as he is, just as he cares about me warts and all.

[Dinah]

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alexandra_k said:
I always laugh when you say 'my therapist has many fine and useful qualities'. I guess I used to read that as your really really really really trying to be charitable. And now I read it as a kind of acceptance and resignation and kinda making the best of the way things are. Not sure how to convey the tone... I guess I still laugh a little. Maybe... The fondness. Thats what I missed before.

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Yes, there is so much fondness in that phrase. I say the same thing about my husband, usually when I am forced to think of his less than fine and useful qualities. I think I borrowed the phrase from "Thomas the Tank Engine", although I might have paraphrased it over time. In Thomas' world, its quite a compliment to be useful. It also probably expresses my natural tendency to value those I value, while acknowledging that they're also human with flaws and that they will likely hurt me from time to time. It's the overall picture, the overall valuing that means the most to me. So it reminds me, when I'm thinking of the less charming things about him, that I do value him overall.

He really liked the analogy. That's why I included it in my gift.

I gave him a Newfoundland card based on that thread here at Psych Central about what kind of dog your therapist would be if he were a dog. He really really liked the description I gave of why I chose him to be a Newfie. So the card pictured a Newfie, and the thank you inside used water rescue and caretaking imagery. Of course he'd forgotten that too, even though he grinned from ear to ear in pleasure when I first described it.

And he really liked the river flowing over the rock analogy too. He doesn't do a whole lot of long term therapy. But he's seen how much I've changed with it. And he liked the idea that slowly over time the moving water shapes and smooths the stone. And the other part is that the stone also has an effect on the water, smaller, but still there. I suppose the idea was to symbolize all the way he's helped me over time, and to acknowledge that I appreciate the value of what we've done. And maybe to encourage him at those times he may feel discouraged at my glacially slow progress. But I'd be the rock, I suppose. And in fact I chose a rock that still had imperfections and flaws, because I am by no means perfectly smooth yet.

I hope you're feeling better?

[Dinah]

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Dinah said:
But I'd be the rock, I suppose. And in fact I chose a rock that still had imperfections and flaws, because I am by no means perfectly smooth yet.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

In face, when I was asking my husband his opinion on which stone I should give, he said I should choose one that was cracked.

My husband's sense of humor is one of his many fine and useful qualities.

lol. i like the rock analogy. sometimes... i mean i don't know him very well... but sometimes i get the impression of him as being a little unsure of how to take some of your metaphors. i mean i haven't met him at all... but i guess i wondered if maybe he felt that way a little about the rock metaphor. don't know, though. dunno.

i'm doing better, yeah. had a bad couple of days because i %#@&#! up rather at work. kind of almost over it now, though, so feeling a lot better.

had a nice session on friday, too, so that kinda helped. helped to have some kind of idea what we are up to. strange... i think i've come to this understanding before, but then i lost it. think it comes and goes.

i've seen a little of thomas the tank engine. yeah, the useful thing. everyone wanted to be useful. do you get any kind of panicky connotations... about what might happen if a person (or engine) wasn't useful? i guess i'm wondering... cause my therapist says something sometimes... not sure what response is appropriate... but he says something about how i'm focused on external cues. i'm not sure if he thinks that is a bad thing or what... don't know. maybe he thinks it is one of my useful qualities? i think it is. i think it is.

(((alex)))
(((dinah)))

I must have been out of it when I last read this thread. I didn't even realize I contributed earlier. Wow!

Yes, Alex I am into art. No particular medium. I don't have a lot of skill, so I call it ugly art. That way there is no pressure for it to be good. If I end up liking it...bonus! The pleasure is in the process. It's an escape. I used to get myself into trouble...now I close myself in my craft room and get messy. Some days I forget to eat. I don't have a clock in there so I am not distracted by reality. The only reality that exists in my room is gravity. I can't figure out how to change that. Are you into art? If so, anything in particular?

Alex - I have felt the pain sensation before...been to the doctor for it too. He told me there wasn't anything there that could hurt. It kept moving around so it was hard to show him where it was. 15 years later it's still there. Grrrrr...

Dinah - I'm sorry you felt that way when you gave your T the gift.
((((((((((dinah))))))))))
That is a terrible feeling. I've been there before and my stomach feels uneasy thinking about it. I'm not good at advise, but I'm a pretty good listener.

I like the rock analogy also. Sounds like something my husband would say too!

I hope I'm not intruding on your conversation. Let me know if I am.

I forget which threads I've posted on sometimes, too. I sometimes check by doing an advanced search on my posting name and checking the threads I've posted to incase I've missed something... But I still miss some sometimes, I'm sure.

I'm not particularly artistic. I got into painting a pot once. A fairly intricate design... Was trying to scrape the paint on with little twigs. Very... zen. Only I didn't prepare the pot properly first (by sealing it) and I used acrylic paints... So when I got sick of it I could wash the paint off and start over lol. Very... zen. (Or crazy or something lol). I enjoy looking at art. Always mean to get to the gallery more often... But I'm pretty hopeless at it and don't really pot-ter around anymore har de har har.

Emotional pain is a funny thing... Even stranger seems to be that some people (clinicians for example) just don't seem to understand it... Maybe... Their emotions don't hurt? I can't imagine living like that... Without painful emotions..

You aren't *intruding* you are *paticipating* and it is nice to have you here :-)

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alexandra_k said:
I forget which threads I've posted on sometimes, too. I sometimes check by doing an advanced search on my posting name and checking the threads I've posted to incase I've missed something...

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That's how you do that...thanks!

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alexandra_k said:
But I'm pretty hopeless at it and don't really pot-ter around anymore har de har har.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

lol

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alexandra_k said:
Maybe... Their emotions don't hurt? I can't imagine living like that... Without painful emotions..

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This gives me an interesting image in my mind, like there are a bunch of separate little beings running around and none of them have skinned knees or paper cuts...not a blemish on them. That's weird, sorry. Like I mentioned earlier...I am very visual. If I were more talented I would draw it for you.

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alexandra_k said:
You aren't *intruding* you are *paticipating* and it is nice to have you here :-)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Thanks, it's nice to be here most of the time. I fet like I violated all etiquette the other day so I'm dealing with a lot of guilt when I sign in. Ughhhhhhh

i didn't know that the pain was emotional pain and not physical or somatic pain until... a while into doing dbt. i mean... the people in hospital said that they thought it was an emotion. but i didn't believe them. i mean i have regular emotions too and they didn't feel like that. sometimes they are painful... and sometimes they are screaming. literally sometimes... not quite literally at others. but screaming, yeah. emotions. who would have thought. pretty freaky huh.

i don't really know what the etiquette is here... or maybe... i have a slightly different conception of it than most people. i don't know... it is nice to chat like this. people come along and participate in a conversation for a while. its kinda nice. an unfolding in a way that isn't off topic. off topic... the bane of my existence lol. sorry, i'm probably being confusing. i guess i think... if you don't want other people joining in then it would be only polite to talk to someone via email or something.

did you mean about posting to this thread or about something else?

When I was younger I tried to ignore my emotions. I thought if I just went through the motions of living (getting up, going to school, coming home, eating dinner, going to bed...) it would all be over before I knew it. Obviously it didn't work. It's funny what a persons mind will think/justify/imagine/plan, isn't it?!?!?

I think I violated all the etiquette in a chat room. I haven't been back since. I feel like I owe them an appology, but I can't remember who was all in there or how to go about it...I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Maybe I'm over reacting again???

My therapist wants me to be more assertive and open. Usually when I make a conscientious effort to do this it backfires on me. Grrrr...

Ah. Chat can be a funny place... I've seen a few threads on the general board of people finding that they don't feel accepted in chat. That people won't talk to them, or whatever. Maybe part of the problem with chat is... The absence or flouting of etiquette? Sounds like you are a sensitive person. There might have been some weirdness in chat (it isn't at all uncommon). But... Typically the people who internalize the responsibility... Are the ones who it is precisely NOT about. But then I don't really know what you are talking about... PM me about it if you want to check... Or someone else maybe who understands the etiquette (if there is one) better than me lol.

Some people are triggered... I've had a couple people be really very triggered by my choosing to post in a grey colour. There was some controversy when I said 'I'm sorry, but I want to continue posting in this colour'. I asserted myself by asserting something that meant something to me even if others didn't understand. Other people didn't seem to understand. I guess the upshot is that they don't have to understand. I tried to help them to but sometimes... Ya just gotta live your life even when others disaprove of some of your choices.

There is something to the 'act yourself into feeling different' idea. But then there also comes a point where that is just about distraction... And it doesn't really help anything along. Emotions are hard, yeah.