Lately I have noticed that certain thoughts and feelings about T don't hurt as much as they used to. The need is not as painful. I (thought) I had accepted the fact that I can't be with him 24 hours per day, and that I can't marry him, lol.

So the other day, I conjured up some impure thoughts about T, hahahaha... just to see what my reponse would be. I actually thought to myself, "Oh no, I couldn't do that with T-- it would ruin our relationship. I want to feel connected with him on a level that is emotionally intimate, not sexual."

This was a big step for me because I have struggled with erotic transference for a long time. I have trouble understanding that a relationship with a man can be this intimate without sex. I have felt that attraction towards him, and I have wanted him to feel it towards me.

So after thinking that I was making it past erotic transference, I had a dream last night that I sex with T. In the dream T said, "This whole rule against therapist/patient sexual relationship is ********. Don't worry. I had supervision about this." Then, in the dream, I asked T what his supervisor said about all of it. He refused to tell me.

So of course, I go to therapy today and tell him all of it. I tell him about the dream and I tell him about the thoughts I had of engaging sexually with him. He goes, "Does it make you feel embarrassed?" I want to get up and choke him. I yelled, "NO! I absolutely couldn't wait to get here and tell you that not only did I have a sexual dream about you, but I purposely and consciously conjured up sexual thoughts about you!!"

Then I told T that all of the dreams that I have ever had about him, have had some sort of sexual theme to them. Then T goes, "So do you think you would stop feeling like you want to have sex with your therapist?" And I go, "I NEVER SAID I HAD THOSE FEELINGS!!!" (Hahahaha, this was immediately after telling him that I had sexual thoughts and dreams about him).

So T went on to say that it is totally normal for me to have these feelings because of the intimacy of the relationship-- he said that it is natural that I would want to get as close as possible to the person that I am experiencing deep levels of emotional intimacy with.

Then he asks me what the most difficult part is. He goes, "Do you feel rejected?" Of course, I answer, "NO! THAT IS SO STUPID." And then I said, "Yeah, of course I feel rejected. I am only accustomed to my relationships with males having a sexual element to them." T said, "In the past, if you felt physically attracted to someone, it was easy for you to have the relationship turn sexual. In this situation, it is impossible." Yup. He's right.

Then I told him that I felt a major misattunement during most of the session. He asked when it started. I silently thought to myself, "When we started talking about sex." I stayed silent. T goes, "When we started talking about sex?" I said, "%#@&#! you." Then I said, "Yeah. When we started talking about sex." Then I put my big Jackie-O sunglasses on and T made me take them off, lol.

There was misattunement because the whole thing got mixed up when T started talking about the parts of my feelings that were applicable to my husband. I was so confused because I understand which feelings were directed towards T and which were really transference in regards to my husband. There were definitely elements of both, and tons of overlap... but I couldn't sort anything out from it.

Even worse, I couldn't express any of it because I think in colors and shapes, and that is out of my control. So my feelings of misattunement was only showing up in my head as a sharp, orange shape with lots of edges, and all these long black sticks on the orange thing, overlapping with each other. T is very familiar with the fact that I "see" my emotions, so I was only able to describe to him what I was seeing. It gets frustrating when I can't put words to it, but he's usually pretty good about "joining" my way of thinking and adapting to my weird pictures.

So the session was a bust. I don't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't already know (he even said that when he was interpreting some of the stuff-- "I know you already know this..") I'm not sure where to go from here. There is a lot that I don't know, in regards to how this gets mixed up with my husband, but those are the parts that became to overwhelming to understand and/or compartmentalize.

It gets worse: When I see T on Saturdays, there are never any other Ts in the office. Just him. He doesn't see any other clients that day. Just me. When I walked out of the office today, a woman was sitting there. She smiled at him. Luckily, I did not find that she was very attractive. But anyway, it still killed me. A woman? On MY Saturday? I felt like scratching her eyeballs out.

Ugh. So now I have to go back week after week, as the patient who wants to sleep with her therapist, but that's okay because it is "acceptable" and "normal." Great. I mean, it's not like he didn't know this before, but I guess the worst part is this-- I walked in thinking I had less erotic feelings for him, and I walked out with more than ever.

[Kiya]

...i am so glad my t is female....

[Brian37]

when I discussed the erotic transference with my female therapist, I ended up being terminated........

[chaotic13]

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Even worse, I couldn't express any of it because I think in colors and shapes, and that is out of my control.

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This is interesting that you visualize your emotions as colors and shapes. I think I experience mine through physical sensations that I cannot express in words.

Do you think that the brain and nervous system can get the circuits crossed? Like a mis-connect between the right hemisphere's perception and the language center in the left hemisphere.

I think I might find it easier to talk to a male T about sexual issues and transference. However, I am really glad that I am seeing a female T. I think if I was having erotic feelings or fantasies about my T on top of it my other entangled emotions, I wouldn't be able to function. My emotions regarding the past and present, husband, physical and emotional intimacy and different types of relationships are all totally tangled up. I couldn't handle yet another dimension to my dementia.

[kim_johnson]

It is kinda interesting that you were feeling the erotic transference feelings lessen... And that you seemed... Ambivalent about that (I'm not sure)? And so you attempted to conjure up some feelings...

Is it partly about your not quite knowing how to relate to him if you don't feel that for him?

And then in the session... Talking about the erotic transference feelings... You felt misattuned...

Was that maybe related to an ambivalence in the degree of intimacy you wanted? That when you are talking about something deeply intimate (sex) then you feel misattuned... But that when you are talking about something less intimate then you feel more attuned?

I don't know.

I've been reading a lot about object relations lately since my therapist offered an object relations interpretation of some of our inter-personal dynamics.

I haven't talked to him about erotic transference. I've talked to him a little about little kid idealized transference - but not about grown up wanting to %#@&#! him transference. When we talk about the transference in session then I find that I really can't look at him at all. It is like... Because we are talking about something so deeply intimate I need to avert part of myself.

So maybe... It is about ambivalence? Ambivalence is hard... Hard to think that you can really like and care very much for someone... But that you can (at the very same time) also want to keep yourself distinct from them. I find this hard... Hard that other people see me this way... But then... I also crave boundaries. Maybe because... While merger into other people can feel wonderful at times, often I want to retain my independence too. Ambivalence is hard...

Maybe it is about integrating the object (both him and you). In the sense that... You can care for him very much while at the same time not wanting to merge / lose yourself in him... In the sense that... He can care for you very much while at the same time not wanting to merge / lose himself in you...

Perhaps?

Not sure what I'm on about really...

[kim_johnson]

Someone or other thought that erotic transference was a defence. A defence against other, deeper, feelings.

I wonder if the intensity of the transference is the result of splitting?

If the object is all-good then one WOULD want to merge completely.

If one doesn't want to merge completely then the object CANT BE all good.

If the object isn't all good then one wouldn't want to merge.

But it is hard to develop ambivalent (integrated) feelings for the object. So much nicer, more attractive, safer, to stick with the object being all good. And if erotic transference is required (indeed part of) the idealization... Then holding on to the idealization just is holding on to the erotic transference.

I haven't got the hang of this ambivalence / integration thing... Not at all...

Hard to get the hang of it when I have only really experienced idealization / desire to merge on the one hand and devaluation / disgust, repulsion, aversion on the other.

Don't want any of that latter... So back to the idealization again... Only trouble is that (rationally I know though not emotionally) what makes the devaluation (and resulting feelings possible) is the idealization... And the disapointment of idealized longings...

I kinda think that if I fail to idealize him sufficiently then I'll end up devaluing him. And I don't want that, so back to the idealization. Hard... Oh so hard... To integrate some of my desire for independence and solitude at times with the idealized aspects... To think I can care about him very much even if I don't desire him to hold me and / or %#@&#! me...

Kim, you reminded me that T and I did talk, a bit, about differentiation (I tend to forget what the hell happened in session). Part of me was feeling so proud that I was beginning to separate a little, in the sense that I could stay connected to him outside of session and phone calls-- but as soon as HE mentioned that I was becoming differentiated, I got all nervous, like he was kicking me out, or forcing the separation. I think it is similar with my husband... except with him, I used to be ridiculously enmeshed and now there are times when I feel like I have outgrown him in a sense... not saying that I don't want to be with him... just saying that there hasn't been a balance of intimacy yet.

[kim_johnson]

I used to have an understanding with one of my therapists that I could audio tape the session to listen to later. It helped A LOT with respect to what was actually said in the session. Quite often I'd find that what she had said was really quite different from what I remembered her saying - or from what I interpreted her as saying at the time. I haven't asked my current therapist if we could do this, though. Maybe because... I don't think it is something he typically does, and I've done enough of that kind of requesting already (with phone and email contact). But I surely know what you mean about whole chunks of the session being forgotten until something triggers the memory back. I find it happens with me and my sessions all the time.

Ah... So sounds like it might be a defence against the differentiation / healthy object relations thing. On the upside... Seeing this... And being able to see the object in an integrated way is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than one might think. One might be able to do it for 5 minutes here... and 3 days there... and several hours there... But getting better involves being able to do it most of the time and (on the upside) I think we both are pretty far away from that indeed :-)

(So while it constitutes progress it is NOWHERE near the progress that results in termination)

:-)

I think... Desires for intimacy are meant to ebb and flow over time like the seas lapping on the shore. Sometimes we desire to be close to people (e.g., when anxious / stressed or as part of caretaking / soothing them when they feel similarly). Othertimes we desire to be less close to people (e.g., when we are focused on our goals and ambitions or when we are emersed in some independent or group activity even). Desires for intimacy are meant to ebb and flow... But I don't think they are meant to be as intense (either the desire for closeness or the desire for seperateness) as we experieince them to be.

So... Progress... And steps forward most definately... But with each step forward (each step towards integration) things just will dissolve into their own new polarity. That just will happen, quite naturally. We don't need to do anything at all to ensure that, it just does happen.

I think progress is about seeing polarities, integrating them... Finding new polarities, integrating them... Over and over and over again. Sometimes old polarities recurr, even. It can be really hard to go with it... And not fight it. Either by attempting to force an integration that one can't quite see... Or by attempting to force a new polarity because one is afraid of what it means to have an integrated view. I think life just is that process... Over and over and over again. one and two and one and two and one and two... Clearly I'm nuts :-)

Sometimes I think life is supposed to be like... An orcestra, or something. Where each voice is distinct such that one could focus on that and follow just one all the way through... The distinctness and seperateness is there and apparent... But where there are times where that voice does kinda merge with others into some integrated sound... And where mostly what one hears is a kind of dance or interchange that requires several, distinct voices playing off one another and complimenting each other in order to make a melody or whatever.

So... Seperateness. But seperateness alongside others (so in some felt sense of companionship). And some points of merger... The dance of life...

And of course my metaphors suck... And are all mixed up and stuff... But sometimes I kinda see this... And then, of course, it goes again. Think maybe it is similar to Alanis Morrissettes view of 'Utopia' in her song 'Under Rug Swept'... Seeing it is one thing... Realizing it (for several minutes, or several hours) is quite another... And as for realizing it most of the time... Well... I think that is something that is an ongoing life process, really. Don't think anyone manages to retain it ALL the time.

Disruptions to that simply WILL occur... Simply will...

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kim_johnson said:
Think maybe it is similar to Alanis Morrissettes view of 'Utopia' in her song 'Under Rug Swept'...

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Oh, I love this song.

I will write more later, but have to read your response more carefully.

Everything was just so mixed up today. I had it all neat and compartmentalized. Then once I got into session, the whole thing blew up into a million pieces and overlapping lines that I can't make sense of.

T and I wrote some emails back and forth last week and agreed that I am definitely on the way to being able to be alone in the presence of another.

Have you ever read Winnicott's essay on that topic?

[kim_johnson]

Hey. No, I don't think I've read his essay. I'll try and hunt it down now, though. I didn't really know anything of Winnicott (except what you and others had posted about him on these boards). Then my therapist mentioned him, so I did a bit of reading... But secondary sources, basically.

Last time I saw my therapist he had an interpretation, though (the first one he has offered me). And... It was very 'object relations'. So... I read up on object relations since then (just like I read up on Kohut and Self Psychology after he mentioned that). I have kind of developed his interpretation - and emailed him some stuff. Will be interesting to see what he has to say tomorrow.

Anyway... I'll have a look for the Winnicott essay (or some secondary sources at least).

[kim_johnson]

I don't have an institutional subscription to PEP web. I put in a request with the library... But they ignored me... As such, I don't always get to read the articles I would like to :-( The paper is available from there.. But I can't access it. Can you? If so... Is it possible for you to download the PDF and attach it to this thread? (It isn't meant to be anymore than 10 pages)

[dalila]

<font color="green">I have to warn some of the others on here that being with a therapist who is the same sex is not a guarantee that you will never feel erotic transference. I have gotten so attached to my therapist that I have had sex dreams and even hmmm cravings [?] for her. I rather embarrassedly told her about the dreams and she helped me see it as wanting to be closer and not really getting how to do it without sex. I used to think I just wanted her to be the mother I didn’t have but have found that I seem to want more and less from her.

Pink,
Interesting that you name the thoughts ‘impure’ but I sort of believe that having experienced the ability to feel close without the erotic connotations you will be able to revisit that. It also seems natural that when you felt at all uncomfortable or misattuned that you would revert to what has been the norm for you. I have to congratulate you on your willingness to walk through a minefield full of such personal and private pain.

</font>

[imapatient]

Brian, can you tell more? I had a major issue with that with my F therapist (I'm straight male)..She terminated with me--after years and years--but in an odd situation where I'm not sure what part the sexual attractioin played--though it was part of it. I want to be vague right now, but hearing of another's experience might help.

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dalila said:
<font color="green">I have to warn some of the others on here that being with a therapist who is the same sex is not a guarantee that you will never feel erotic transference. I have gotten so attached to my therapist that I have had sex dreams and even hmmm cravings [?] for her. I rather embarrassedly told her about the dreams and she helped me see it as wanting to be closer and not really getting how to do it without sex. I used to think I just wanted her to be the mother I didn’t have but have found that I seem to want more and less from her.

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Thank you for pointing this out, Dalila. Erotic transference comes in many forms, and can be experienced no matter what combination of gender the therapist and patient are.

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Pink,
Interesting that you name the thoughts ‘impure’

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Ah, that was actually my sarcasm doing its work, lol. I just thought the term "impure thoughts" was funny. To me, there is nothing impure about thinking about sex, not even with one's therapist.
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but I sort of believe that having experienced the ability to feel close without the erotic connotations you will be able to revisit that. It also seems natural that when you felt at all uncomfortable or misattuned that you would revert to what has been the norm for you. I have to congratulate you on your willingness to walk through a minefield full of such personal and private pain.

</font>

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Thank you, Dalila! I think you are right-- I have definitely been able to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection. However, T is right-- my natural feeling is to be even CLOSER to someone who I feel that close with-- hence, the sexual feelings. I am also learning how to accept and deal with a medium-- erotic transference may feel strong at times, and not so strong at others-- but I think it will always be there.

[Perna]

I think there are a couple of "opposite" but equal things that happen in therapy, the differentiating thing with one's therapist but also accepting that "life" isn't "neat" and compartmentable. I was reminded, Pink, of that with your colored feelings, the orange with black lines, and not being able to make anything of them. I don't know that one is supposed to; they're kind of like an abstract painting that means what it means to you; feels "messy" like it does, all over the place but, and here's what is hard for me to remember, it's the containing of all that that is important; it's like a complex soup in a bowl; that it's made of broth, and very different vegetables, spices and other ingredients all at once that can't necessarily be individually sorted out isn't what is important but that it's all contained in the bowl and you have a spoon/tool (sometimes just drinking from the bowl!) to eat it with and enjoy it and it nourishes you.

[Lenny]

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To lighten the affliction of insanity by all human means is not to restore the greatest of the divine gifts; and those who devote themselves to the task do not pretend that it is. They find their sustainment and reward in the substitution of humanity for brutality, kindness for maltreatment, peace for raging fury; in the acquisition of love instead of hatred; and in the acknowledgment that, from such treatment improvement, and hope of final restoration, will come if hope be possible.-- Charles Dickens, Household Words, 1852

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Your signature quote is just wonderfull pink...Thank you so much for it,,I have never read those words and I am a Dickens fan...

I am always so humbled and in awe of what men and women can do with words...

Lenny

[chaotic13]

Pinksoil's Errrotic Transference posts alway leaves my mind spinning and frequently my body laughing. I am still soooo... "unconscious" ; but it seems like each time you share your ramblings in this area, I'm able to take something way from all the posts.

[lauren_helene]

Pink, I just posted something similar just now...how interesting the timing is! I hadn't read your post first...

I hate this part of the process!!!!

[kim_johnson]

> I have definitely been able to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection. However, T is right-- my natural feeling is to be even CLOSER to someone who I feel that close with-- hence, the sexual feelings. I am also learning how to accept and deal with a medium-- erotic transference may feel strong at times, and not so strong at others-- but I think it will always be there.

So... If it wasn't there... Then that would mean that you wouldn't get to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection?

(I'm just trying to figure what it would mean TO YOU if the erotic transference wasn't there which I interpret to mean - if you didn't have thoughts of sleeping with him at times).

[MissCharlotte]

I have strong erotic transferential feelings towards T as well. I have engaged conversation surrounding this at times in session; not as directly as you Pink, but he is well aware, and has assured me it's okay to have these feelings. Here's the thing, though. I was in therapy once before with a woman. I worked with her for 3 or 4 years. I never had these kinds of feelings. But I don't think it's because she was a woman. I think it's because I never reached the level of intimacy that it seems I am reaching with T. I also believe that with me, intimacy = sex. And I don't know how to separate the two. I also don't think at this point that it will ever go away.

Sigh.

[Mouse_]

yiou know I dont know if this is connected or not...but when I met my birth brother for the first time 20 odd yrs ago...I felt attracted to him..infact one part of me was fantising him finding me attractive...I kept this to myself for yrs thinking I was a pervert until I read this is common amongst siblings that haven 't grown up together...I'm pleased to report nothing come of it...