[sunrise]

At my session a few days ago, I was expressing a lot of anxiety, which for me can come out in a kind of stressed, impatient, short/quick manner. I'm not at my best! I know I can dump a lot of "worst case scenario" irrational thoughts when I do this. I can even be conscious of it, but T's office has become safe for me, and it is nice to be able to be irrational once in a while, since I usually am a highly rational person (perhaps a curse). I would never subject a friend to this, and rarely subject T to this.

When T asked me a question that indicated he completely did not understand something we had talked about at least half a dozen times before, I said, using his name, "________, no, that's not it, blah blah blah" in a rather forceful and sharp way. I was annoyed he did not understand this. At that point, he got out of his seat across from me, and went to stand some distance away, and he talked to me from there. It was weird, he was standing, and very far away. I wondered why, but didn't connect the dots. Eventually he came back and sat down across from me.

It was not a very connected session. On the way out, he gave me a hug, and said "we'll get you through this divorce." I guess that was meant to be encouraging, but it made me feel bad because it fell on my alternative universe ears as him defining his "job"--to get me through the divorce--and then he would be done with me. And glad of it. I also wondered about the hug. We had not hugged for the last few sessions,which were extremely connected. Maybe no need for a hug? But in this session, which to me was NOT GOOD, not connected at all, he hugs me?

Later at home, I thought more about how weird it was he moved away from me. Maybe he moved away because he couldn't stand to be near me when I spoke to him in that sharp way, reprimanding him. I felt really bad about that and remembered how he had told me several times before about the way his (ex-)wife would speak to him--angry, yelling, abusive, etc. And that made me feel even worse, that I was acting like his ex-wife, who he had divorced partly because he finally said ENOUGH to that behavior. And therefore he hated me and so went to stand on the opposite side of the room so he wouldn't have to be near me. Man, I felt bad about that. And I also felt awful thinking he was using some sort of behavior modification technique on me, like punishing my annoyed tone by withdrawing his presence from me, and when I went back to speaking more pleasantly, he rewarded me with his close presence. I hate being treated like a dog.

I wrote him an email that night in which I recast my anxiety in a very adult way, that I realize now was what I thought he would approve of. I wanted to let him know I had heard his message (about what I was anxious about) and had come to see an adult, rational solution. I didn't send it, but waited until morning. Then I reread it and still didn't send it. Something held me back. I realized the true intent behind the email was not to tell T I was handling my anxiety "better" and had heard his message, but to apologize for my behavior in session. I was scared that because of my sharp remark to him, he would now hate me and maybe "divorce" me like he had his wife. So in my email I was now being all nice and showing him how enlightened I was in my thinking. Yuck! When I realized the true intent of the email, I was really glad I hadn't sent it. I do not want to be sucking up to my T. Our relationship is more genuine than that and I would be dishonoring it by sending that email. If I'm sorry about something, I need to be direct and apologize, not somehow try to make amends by writing things I think are the things he wants to hear.

I was a little worried two days later when I had a big legal meeting and T would be there. Would he not want to be near me again? But he was his normal self, very warm and supportive. That helped me to realize my fears were in large part an irrational fabrication, and also to renew my belief in the strength of our bond. After a particularly intense interchange in the meeting, I took a break with my lawyer and we went to discuss things out in the hall, and T came up to us and gave me a lot of guidance and advice. At a much faster pace than in therapy. Kind of overwhelming.

Toward the end of this conversation, I did something I rarely do with people--I reached out and touched T lightly on his elbow as I said something to him. I never do this with anyone! This is really interesting to me that I did this to T. He was great with it--accepted it and kept on talking. It wasn't like he drew back from hot coals or anything, or immediately retreated to the other side of the room. I think it was just my way of trying to get the extra support I needed from him in that difficult moment and to connect, which was a little hard with my L standing right there. So I touched him.

[Mouse_]

I think being Irrational at times is something we need to experience.....perhaps its times like that we're trying to get the other person to experience our own irrational feelings so they can then be off help to us interpyschically....if we someone else always in tune with use then we get afraid that we must never be un-understandable.....

[Sannah]

Hi Sunrise, I think that it is good to get our irrationalness outside of us so that we can see it and untangle it. I don't think positive and negative reinforcement is just for dogs! I think that we all need feedback on our behavior all the time. If we aren't being nice people have the right to back away from us. On the otherhand, however, we all have our moments when we lash out and are not nice and we are only human and everyone can be forgiven for this if forgiveness is sought. No one is perfect and lack of perfection is no reason why people cannot be close anyway.

[chaotic13]

I was scared that because of my sharp remark to him, he would now hate me and maybe "divorce" me like he had his wife.

This is interesting...it kind of sounds like transference/counter transference all mixed up. If he did in fact move away from you because he was feeling attacked by you --sounds like his issue. As long as you were not abusive, he should have been able to handle it as a T. This is where I guess its a good thing that we don't know much about our T's lives. If you didn't know about his ex-wife, would his movement away from you have cause you to feel bad about it?

I also felt awful thinking he was using some sort of behavior modification technique on me, like punishing my annoyed tone by withdrawing his presence from me, and when I went back to speaking more pleasantly, he rewarded me with his close presence. I hate being treated like a dog.

I HATE WHEN I GET THESE THOUGHTS! When I had that situation with my T not responding to me I couldn't help thinking..."she using some behaviorist technique to extinguish my neediness." For me these are very hard thoughts to counter, because to my paranoid ego... the whole therapeutic relationship is just one big manipulation technique. The only thing that helps me challenge these thoughts is to tell myself that she is well trained and does not have to resort to negative feedback or punitive tactics to tell me I am being in appropriate or that she doesn't like what I am doing. Sunrise, I think your T is skilled enough and your relationship with him direct enough that if he really was upset by your sharp reprimanding, he would have likely directly stated that.

Do you think your perception of what happened during the session was magnified somewhat? Especially since when you did see him a few days later, he responded to you normally.

The touch on the arm, most people wouldn't even have noticed something like this...even if it is totally out of character for you to do. I can see how you would be shocked with yourself, but I bet others wouldn't even notice the change in behavior. Your T might pick it up in a one-on-one session but maybe not in a public setting with other interactions going on.

He was great with it--accepted it and kept on talking. It wasn't like he drew back from hot coals or anything, or immediately retreated to the other side of the room.

When you think about it, did you really expect him to withdraw when you touched him? If so, why?

[krazibean]

I admire how well you processed your feelings and your session. I also admire that you waited before sending your email and in the end it was a good decision. very good job on your part- you really figured things out all on your own

(((((((((((((((((( sunrise ))))))))))))))))))))))))

Well, first of all, I'm really impressed with how that whole e-mail thing worked out. You wrote it, you waited and sat with it, and you saw the truth of what was going on and didn't send it. That shows so much patience and self-awareness. I'm much more of a "send now, think later" e-mailer at this point, and I admire how you handled that.

Second, his comment about "we'll get you through this divorce" would have bothered me too. Lately, T has said a couple of times "our work is to help you find what you need outside of the room" and it makes me angry every time....like he is saying, this is fine for now, but the goal is to get you OUT of here. Which it IS, of course, and I accept that, and of COURSE I want to get what I need out in the real world (and of COURSE you want to get through your divorce!) but there is something about those statements that...invalidates??...the relationship with T himself.

(((((((((((((((((((((( sunrise ))))))))))))))))))) Thanks for sharing. I always learn from you!

[sunrise]

Thanks, all who responded.

Originally Posted by Sannah

we all have our moments when we lash out and are not nice and we are only human and everyone can be forgiven for this if forgiveness is sought. No one is perfect and lack of perfection is no reason why people cannot be close anyway.

I think this is one of my issues. I do have now and have had people in my life who expect perfection of me. I can never live up to their standards and am "punished" because of this. I am working to break out of this pattern, to believe I deserve more, I deserve some compassion, and I deserve the right to be imperfect. It's hard going against so many years of "training."

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

If you didn't know about his ex-wife, would his movement away from you have cause you to feel bad about it?

Yes, because I am very sensitive to the movement and space in his room. I am very sensitive to how close we are. I like it when we are close. When he withdrew from me, I was puzzled. He had never done that before. I am not exactly sure it happened right when I reprimanded him. That was mixed in with a string of lashing out against people and circumstances associated with the divorce, and some of it was very irrational, "dumping." At some point he went over near his fridge and stood there and we continued "therapy." I thought maybe he was on his way to the fridge to get something or to his desk to get something. But he did nothing but stand there far away and continue listening and talking to me. I didn't like it, but when he came back, I put it out of my head nd don't remember associating it with any particular "better" behavior on my part. During our session, I never once thought about his ex-wife. It was only later that night, when I was rethinking the session, about how unsatisfactory it was, that I thought of his ex-wife and wondered if my behavior in session reminded him of her and so he withdrew from me physically in his office as perhaps he had many times with his ex-wife (he has never told me this, it is pure speculation how he might have reacted to her). So it was only my post-session thinking that came up with the ex-wife thing. When I think back to what actually happened, he went and stood far away and we talked normally. He showed no hint of being hurt, exasperation, anger, annoyance or anything at me. So he didn't seem pissed off at all by my behavior/words. But yet he went to stand far away from me. Guess I'll never know.

His being his normal self at the legal meeting helped me remember both him and "us" and wipe the post-session musings away.

Do you think your perception of what happened during the session was magnified somewhat?

Yes, definitely. Actually, again, it wasn't my perception during the session that was magnified, it was after the session that I magnified/warped things (most likely).

The touch on the arm... Your T might pick it up in a one-on-one session but maybe not in a public setting with other interactions going on.

Yes, totally agree, the touch on the arm was very appropriate for our setting. That's why I was able to do it, even though out of character for me. I would not have done anything inappropriate, especially with other people around.

When you think about it, did you really expect him to withdraw when you touched him? If so, why?

No, I didn't. I expected him to act normally and myself to be able to connect better. It was very reassuring to have him accept this little touch. My hot coals comment was meant as a kind of bonk on my own head, like, what did you expect, sunny??? I am also very sensitized to what is appropriate touch between a therapist and a client (probably in part because of the discussions here on PC), so any touch between us is one I notice. I don't think I would ever touch him like this in his office during therapy. I am very careful not to invade his space during sessions, I like him close but I am very respectful. There have been a few times when I went over to his couch (or he called me over) and we sat side by side to look at something together. We have been physically close at that time, sitting next to each other, even our arms touching. I remember noticing that and it made me feel closer and very companionable with T. But I had my antennae out for the merest hint that I was making T uncomfortable with my closeness. But it was all just very normal for him, as if 2 friends were side by side, and so what if they happen to touch each other. I was reassured by his lack of reaction and so was able to relax.

chaotic, I think some of these post-session magnified thoughts and interpretations were caused by the session not being connected. I did not imagine that. And I had a lot of anxiety at that meeting, and afterwards I had anxiety about the session being not so great. So I guess maybe I was seeking explanations for that and my inner thought track was off to the races: "What happened in that session? Where did things get off track? Was it that time I reprimanded him and he left me to stand on the other side of his room? Oh, wow, maybe I was acting like his ex-wife...."

I was scared that because of my sharp remark to him, he would now hate me and maybe "divorce" me like he had his wife.

The divorce feeling is a very powerful one for me because that is what I am in the middle of now. So my being afraid T would "divorce" me like he did his wife has deep meaning. It's kind of like a termination fear made deeply personal by festooning it with my own demons.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by earthmama

Second, his comment about "we'll get you through this divorce" would have bothered me too. Lately, T has said a couple of times "our work is to help you find what you need outside of the room" and it makes me angry every time....like he is saying, this is fine for now, but the goal is to get you OUT of here. Which it IS, of course, and I accept that, and of COURSE I want to get what I need out in the real world (and of COURSE you want to get through your divorce!) but there is something about those statements that...invalidates??...the relationship with T himself.

Thank you, earthmama for understanding! When T said that, it made me feel like all I was to him was another divorce to be gotten through and then he could make another check mark in his book (helped 21 clients get divorced in 2008, oh, wait, make that 22, sunny will be finished soon). It made me feel like he thought the sum content of our relationship was the divorce. And it is so much more than that to me. Yes, his comment felt invalidating. But it came with the hug and I know he meant to be supportive. But it still was invalidating. It was all those things at once. Confusion.

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Sunny,

This is such an interesting post on many levels. I am struck by how you interpreted his physical movements--when he moved away from you. I believe it is a sign of the intimate nature of the therapeutic relationship, and how far you two have come. You immediately interpreted his movements (deliberate or not) and applied prior knowledge to arrive at your own understanding of the interaction.

This week at the end of my session, T was sitting in his chair. He usually stands up when I'm leaving and I was struck by how he looked-sort of tired, wiped out. I decided the session had been too much for him--that my depression was too ugly, too deep, too negative, that I had caused him unnecessary pain.

In intimate relationships, we read cues from one another well beyond what is expressed verbally. Body language and physical movement are a big part of the interaction. In both your case and mine, we interpreted T's physical movements and applied our current vulnerability to come to an understanding.

But what if your T had to release a little gas and my T had a cramp in his foot?

[Slippers]

"At that point, he got out of his seat across from me, and went to stand some distance away, and he talked to me from there. It was weird, he was standing, and very far away. I wondered why, but didn't connect the dots. Eventually he came back and sat down across from me."

Umm....maybe he just needed to....um....fart.

S

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by sunrise

... it was very irrational, "dumping."

I get VERY upset with myself when I feel like I've been irrational. I think back to a while ago when I got angry at my T when I thought she was ignoring me when I was wanting support. I felt like an email I sent made me look like a REAL NEEDY... I WANT YOUR ATTENTION... WACKO. At the time rationally I knew that the likely reason she didn't contact me was "She wasn't reading her e-mail!", yet I was being irrational and thinking that she was using some technique to "teach me a lesson about dealing with crap on my own." I really beat myself up A LOT because not only was I continuing to think irrationally, I actually disclosed it to her! When I look back on that situation from a 3rd person perspective...my responses to this situation were really not that abnormal. The way my T responded and treats me now, suggests that I am not that abnormal, that the freaky email got her attention but... it wasn't all that crazy. Again this is just something I do, probably not what you do; but I think a lot of times how I perceive things or the way my mind then weaves things is very distorted in comparison to how others perceive them.

The fact that you caught your response and thought whoa.. what's this about, was really good.

At some point he went over near his fridge and stood there and we continued "therapy." I thought maybe he was on his way to the fridge to get something or to his desk to get something. But he did nothing but stand there far away and continue listening and talking to me.

When I read this I had to laugh. I think about how many times when I am interacting with someone and I do just this. Some is talking with me, I am listening to what they are saying but get up to get something (a drink). Then on the way across the room they say something that immediately catching 100% of my attention. I immediately stop and listen or make a comment. The conversation continues and I forget what I originally got up for, stand there for a few seconds, then say the hell with it and sit back down. Didn't you mentioned your T might suffer or have some ADHD tendencies a bit too. If so, maybe he just got up to get something and had a mental lapse. OR as Slippers said ... needed to fart

After all that... my point is...during your session you thought his actions were strange but his others actions suggested that it was not likely directly related to what you were doing or saying so you dismissed it. It was only after the session when you were replaying your mental tape of the therapy session, that your mind latched on this this anomaly and started a "worst case scenario analysis" and the knowledge of his ex-wife, your feeling of being disconnected and him not hearing you that session, maybe anger at yourself for dumping irrational things on him, your fear of that he is eventually going to reject you, and all the other crap you dealing with started to be weaved into it and magnified it.

I think it was good that you allowed yourself to vent some of these tangled thoughts down in the unsent email then had the patience and discipline not to click the send button right away. Also I think it is good that you are now stepping back and analyzing your response to see if you can understand it and maybe avoid getting repeatedly getting caught up in this mental loop again.

Do you see yourself reflecting on this situation with him?

I know in my own therapy I've caught myself all tangled up in a negative feedback loop, managed to eventually get myself out of it, but tend to never close the loop by discussing what happen with my T. Sometimes I think this is OK because, I did the work, I got myself out of it, everything is "all good". But then other times I think... should I have talked about it so I would know for sure my final conclusions were accurate. By not actually talking about it, I never really get to know if my conclusion is accurate or if I did the same thing in another relationship would I be considered a WACKO.

I guess my question is... now that you've worked this far through the incident and your reactions to it... do you really need to discuss it and find out ... why he move a way from you that day? Does it really matter why?

I'm just curious because you seem to be in a situation where your decision to discuss this situation/ or any therapy situation is likely based on what you want/or need. I'm getting there but not there yet. In my therapy many "to discuss"/ "not to discuss" issues are still somewhat influenced by my fear that if my reaction is "weird" my T would then know.

[sunrise]

Thanks MissCharlotte, Slippers, and chaotic for suggesting the "alternative" explanations for my T's behavior. Since his demeanor did not match the motive I attributed to his withdrawal, I do feel I was probably wrong in my interpretation. chaotic, yes, my T has ADHD, and I could very easily imagine that he might get up to get something on the other side of the room, get halfway there, then turn to really listen to what I was saying, respond, listen some more, and then forget why he was standing in the middle of the room. And then he would return to his seat. I can totally see that! Heck, I do that all the time myself (at home or work). I think, because of the lack of connectedness at the session, I was very willing to construct and believe negative interpretations of his behavior. Sometimes we just aren't connected. So be it. (I think my T told me once that if we connect 1/3 of the time, then that is "good enough.")

Originally Posted by chaotic13

I think it is good that you are now stepping back and analyzing your response to see if you can understand it and maybe avoid getting repeatedly getting caught up in this mental loop again

I find PC really useful for helping me do that.

Originally Posted by chaotic13

Do you see yourself reflecting on this situation with him? I guess my question is... now that you've worked this far through the incident and your reactions to it... do you really need to discuss it and find out ... why he move a way from you that day? Does it really matter why?

No, I don't think I'll discuss it. We have a session at the end of next week and have too much to work on to deal with this. I need a lot of help with "finding my voice" in the divorce meetings, and working on issues that are coming up for me. So there's kind of a deadline for all that because of the schedule, and there is no deadline for, "why did you walk across the room from me?", so we will not talk about it now. The urgent things first. But I think I've worked through it enough on my own (and here) so my need there is not strong.

P.S. chaotic, I think my T is sometimes delighted when my reaction is "weird." Who wants to be like everyone else? It's OK to let your T know and appreciate that you are a unique individual.

[chaotic13]

I'm pretty naive, if I think she hasn't figured out by now that I am weird. I guess its just that damn vulnerability issue again. Can't let people know that you might worry about what they think of ya! I don't know how she refrains for kicking me out of her office sometimes.

I hope you connect well with your T this week and you find your voice. Maybe at some point you can tell H you hope his bike seat gets rammed up his @$$ on his next ride.