[pachyderm]

Many people here agree that their therapists are "human" or maybe "only human" and that they have their needs and problems too. Well, that's OK, I guess. Unless the therapists' problems get in the way of treating their patients or clients successfully.

I think some people enter the therapy field in order to get their own problems solved, rather than primarily to help prospective patients. That is OK; they have needs too, and there is nothing wrong with them getting help for their problems. But the danger is that they will not work through their problems sufficiently before working on patients. They may try to get their patients to help them. That is the difference between a therapist who is successful in helping patients and one who is less successful: how well they have been helped to work through their own problems before confronting patients. When one is advised how to choose a therapist this aspect of things is mostly not even mentioned. One is advised that it is necessary to pick one who has a sufficient number of letters after her name, has been in training at high-prestige institutions for so many years, and so on. But it is not the amount of training one has had, but what happens in the training. Does the person succeed in becoming sufficiently aware of psychological processes, including her own? Or do the trainers not want to have to judge that?

With my own present therapist, he wants people to be well. He is always doing things, being "helpful", giving advice, to "improve" his clients. That is, I think he does not just wish wellness for them, he needs them to be well. He needs them to be well so they can provide him with the security and approval that he did not get from his own parents.

I am finding it a bit strange that I can "see" this (or think that I can see it). I have been trying to understand what is happening with this attempted therapy, and if and how I can cope with it. Sometimes I can just accept that he has, or I think he has, uncertainties of his own; at other times I find it confusing (my mind really goes into a tailspin) and very frightening.

I think my fear reproduces a major fear that I had in childhood. My mother was very insecure and could not let her children be separate people. We had to be her parents. She had to possess and control us completely, so that we would do what she needed us to do (which was to take care of her). I found this extremely terrifying: I feared that I would get swallowed up in her and completely lose who I was. I would be presented with a danger that I could detect but could not understand, and be completely unable to cope with it. And that is exactly what happened. I virtually "disappeared" for many years. I thought it was forever.

And there was no help or recognition from anyone. Only torment from other children probably in similar situations. No real adults could be seen.

Similar things have happened in my life repeatedly. Other therapists have wanted me to take care of them. They have not seen this about themselves and have denied it and have been willing that I should suffer instead of them having to recognize their own fears. In this they have been "protected" by their fellows who should, instead, have been helping them. The fledgling therapists have been betrayed by the very people who should have been their guides. This is something that I have found very hard to take, because it is so much covered up and denied in the "mental health" profession. No one is benefitted or "protected" by this practice, except ones who do not want to face their own terrors. It seems to me there are a whole lot of those -- not only in the profession but in our society in general. What a mess!

However -- messes can be cleaned up when you understand more about them. I hope.

[Behindthecouch]

Hey Pachyd,

Firstly seeing the phrase "He is always [...] giving advice" kind of gives me the chills because that's the one thing that everything I've ever read says therapists should not do under any circs. I'm sure he has his reasons and you are in the best situation to know this so I can't judge this situation but the fact that you can see it is no good for the relationship.

I read a book recently called Narcissism and the Psychotherapist - all about the kinds of issues that stop therapists actually helping clients by (accidentally or not) putting their own needs before those of the client - whether thats the need to be worshipped, respected, to be "right" or just to get paid lots of money for what they do.

I read in another book last night that one of the reasons a lot of people want to become therapists (subconsiously or otherwise) is so that they are perceived as being more "sorted" than the general populace and are therefore more respected and have more power, without ever having to look at their own needs and getting them met in their own lives rather than by clients.

This kind of thing bugs me. I hope its not this bad with your T.

BTC.

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

However -- messes can be cleaned up when you understand more about them. I hope.

Yes thats true.

[Sannah]

Pachy, you have said so many interesting things in this post I don't know where to start.... First of all I like your approach here. It seems that you are trying to figure out where you stand in all of this. This will get you somewhere! Secondly, you can see where you keep running into narcissists. I would like to suggest that maybe you should look at how you are behaving to attract them. I had to do this same thing and I found some things that I did. One thing that I did is that I would take care of them! If you find that you do this and then decide to stop you will definitely stop attracting them.

I loved your phrase that messes can be cleaned up if they are understood!!!!!!!

I got my MSW because I definitely had people skills, empathy, etc. I didn't even think about studying this to help myself because at that time in my life I hadn't realized yet that I wasn't meeting my needs and was meeting the needs of others. In the end I ended up helping myself very much though with all of this extra knowledge. Anyway, I struggled a lot during my MSW because I wear my heart on my sleeve and I couldn't hide my anxiety and all of my other problems. Many of my fellow students and professors thought I was a loser, someone who would enter this field and harm others because of my own problems. I proved them all wrong. I got better (but then didn't work for long anyway!). I know what you are talking about though. If a therapist won't face a problem it will block his ability to help others. I don't think that added credentials will guarantee it either. I know someone who is a PhD who does research and she hasn't applied anything that she has learned to her life. I only have an MSW, have never used it professionally but I took myself apart and rebuilt myself correctly. I don't think that it has anything to do with training either. I think the therapist just has to be open and willing to do his or her own homework on their own time.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Sannah

...you can see where you keep running into narcissists. I would like to suggest that maybe you should look at how you are behaving to attract them....

You could be right. For the moment I don't have much insight into that -- except maybe I have had so little self-confidence that I accept whatever comes my way.

[SpottedOwl]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

You could be right. For the moment I don't have much insight into that -- except maybe I have had so little self-confidence that I accept whatever comes my way.

(((Pachyderm)))

It sounds like you do have some insight -- you are correct!

Children who are raised by narcissists learn that in order to get love, they must forget about their own needs and attend to the needs of the narcissist.
That leaves a pattern of accepting any sort of behavior for validation, which leaves us at the mercy of whomever wants to give us that acceptance.

The solution is to look for the validation within, and remember that you have a choice. As kids we may not have had a choice, but as an adult we absolutely have a choice.

We can exercise our choices in all sorts of little ways -- from speaking up and asking for what we want at a restaurant, to interviewing several doctors before choosing which one to work with.

I would also recommend reading about Shame. It can get in our way and tell us that what we need isn't really *that* important.

Great posts, and evolution of thought, Pachy.
Many positive and supportive thoughts heading your way!

Hi Pachy...

Just an idea...do you think there is any chance that transference is coming into play here? It seems that you feel like the way your therapist is behaving is mirroring the way your mom behaved. And it may very well be....but that sounds like it also has some really rich transference potential.

Either way, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time...

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

Children who are raised by narcissists learn that in order to get love, they must forget about their own needs and attend to the needs of the narcissist.

In my case it was more like being forced to not attend to my own needs, or even know that I had a right to them.

... remember that you have a choice. As kids we may not have had a choice, but as an adult we absolutely have a choice.

My sense that I had no choice extended far into adulthood, and is present to some extent even today. I remember her asking sometimes what we children wanted, and then if we said something she did not like, she would tell us that we did not want what we had just said that we wanted. It was dangerous for me to make any choice that my mother did not approve of. I think I learned that it was dangerous even to think about it.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by earthmama

Hi Pachy...

Just an idea...do you think there is any chance that transference is coming into play here? It seems that you feel like the way your therapist is behaving is mirroring the way your mom behaved. And it may very well be....but that sounds like it also has some really rich transference potential.

Yes, no doubt that is the case. It has been very hard for me to distinguish between what my T does and what my mother did. I think part of this is because there are some real similarities, even though my therapist may not be especially dangerous to me -- at least if I can keep my head.

[Sannah]

Pachy, in addition to what Owl said, I think that it also is just that we have been trained like this. These were our automatic responses that we didn't even recognize. Once you step back and examine what is going on you can make different choices. I would also like to take EM's transference idea further and suggest that you might have done this with everyone that you have ever come across in "authority". That you turned every relationship into this relationship just with your automatic responses. You are very capable of acting differently. Acting in a way that is in your interest and not against it.

[RiverX]

interesting and insightful, .... you're fascinated and very good at understanding bad 'others', as I have been. Would this be a way of putting outside of oneself all the ....... stuff that you so accurately describe..... ? - a compromise - at least theres some action happening, but you can see he's a goof, so you dont have to get too involved.........?

r.

Its not the same as taking action for what you really need in order to move forward.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Many people here agree that their therapists are "human" or maybe "only human" and that they have their needs and problems too. Well, that's OK, I guess. Unless the therapists' problems get in the way of treating their patients or clients successfully.

I think some people enter the therapy field in order to get their own problems solved, rather than primarily to help prospective patients. That is OK; they have needs too, and there is nothing wrong with them getting help for their problems. But the danger is that they will not work through their problems sufficiently before working on patients. They may try to get their patients to help them. That is the difference between a therapist who is successful in helping patients and one who is less successful: how well they have been helped to work through their own problems before confronting patients. When one is advised how to choose a therapist this aspect of things is mostly not even mentioned. One is advised that it is necessary to pick one who has a sufficient number of letters after her name, has been in training at high-prestige institutions for so many years, and so on. But it is not the amount of training one has had, but what happens in the training. Does the person succeed in becoming sufficiently aware of psychological processes, including her own? Or do the trainers not want to have to judge that?

With my own present therapist, he wants people to be well. He is always doing things, being "helpful", giving advice, to "improve" his clients. That is, I think he does not just wish wellness for them, he needs them to be well. He needs them to be well so they can provide him with the security and approval that he did not get from his own parents.

I am finding it a bit strange that I can "see" this (or think that I can see it). I have been trying to understand what is happening with this attempted therapy, and if and how I can cope with it. Sometimes I can just accept that he has, or I think he has, uncertainties of his own; at other times I find it confusing (my mind really goes into a tailspin) and very frightening.

I think my fear reproduces a major fear that I had in childhood. My mother was very insecure and could not let her children be separate people. We had to be her parents. She had to possess and control us completely, so that we would do what she needed us to do (which was to take care of her). I found this extremely terrifying: I feared that I would get swallowed up in her and completely lose who I was. I would be presented with a danger that I could detect but could not understand, and be completely unable to cope with it. And that is exactly what happened. I virtually "disappeared" for many years. I thought it was forever.

And there was no help or recognition from anyone. Only torment from other children probably in similar situations. No real adults could be seen.

Similar things have happened in my life repeatedly. Other therapists have wanted me to take care of them. They have not seen this about themselves and have denied it and have been willing that I should suffer instead of them having to recognize their own fears. In this they have been "protected" by their fellows who should, instead, have been helping them. The fledgling therapists have been betrayed by the very people who should have been their guides. This is something that I have found very hard to take, because it is so much covered up and denied in the "mental health" profession. No one is benefitted or "protected" by this practice, except ones who do not want to face their own terrors. It seems to me there are a whole lot of those -- not only in the profession but in our society in general. What a mess!

However -- messes can be cleaned up when you understand more about them. I hope.

[Simcha]

With my own present therapist, he wants people to be well. He is always doing things, being "helpful", giving advice, to "improve" his clients. That is, I think he does not just wish wellness for them, he needs them to be well. He needs them to be well so they can provide him with the security and approval that he did not get from his own parents.

There are some bad apples that are therapists, and to be honest some of the reports that I have read on this board have shocked me when it comes to some therapists behavior toward patients. Bad apples tend to leak into every profession, but are quite damaging when done by people who are psychologists, other therapists, psychiatrists, and psychiatric nurse practitioners and the like. Usually this variety are taught by bad teachers and learn bad habits.

However, I do have to challenge your ideas a bit, because you offer no evidence as to why you believe that your therapist is trying to "fix" you because of your belief that he did not get approval and security from his own parents. What indicates your belief, other than his desire to be helpful and to "improve" his clients?

It could very well be true, but without any facts to support this claim, it is likely that it is simply an erroneous belief on your part. Most therapists do not delve into details about how they feel about their own childhood and life experiences (to the extent that runs as deep as the clients disclosure that is). If one ever does, I suggest you run for the hills and not stick around to be your therapist's therapist.

Similar things have happened in my life repeatedly. Other therapists have wanted me to take care of them. They have not seen this about themselves and have denied it and have been willing that I should suffer instead of them having to recognize their own fears.

Are you sure you aren't just jumping to conclusions based on some sort of expectation you have that they will fail you in this regard? How do you know that your hypothesis, that your correlation---is caused by their own unresolved feelings toward their parents? Maybe you do have evidence that you didn't mention here? I also don't know if your saying that most therapists have some kind of unresolved issues as a reason for being a therapist? Therapists don't do very well as therapists for very long if they haven't already learned how to cope with whatever therapy interfering emotions, thoughts, and behaviors they might not have effectively dealt with.

I find it very odd, and if true (and not a cognitive distortion of some sort), I find it very disturbing that most of your therapists have wanted you to take care of them. Have you met many other people who have/are gone/going through therapy who have had similar experiences with their therapist? Have they come to similar conclusions, or are your repeat experiences unique regarding therapists turning the tables on you?

I'm certainly not discounting your concerns, as it is quite possible that you got the run of the bad apples-- and in that case I hope you stop seeing the one you have currently before they cause more damage. What are your thoughts on this?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Simcha

There are some bad apples that are therapists...

I am not trying to assign "badness" to therapists that I think are not doing their jobs as well as I think they should. I do have strong feelings about it at times, but that does not mean they are "bad".

However, I do have to challenge your ideas a bit, because you offer no evidence...

I think I was sensitized to this especially by my first therapist, who declared to me the last time we met that "I have never been treated as badly by anyone before in my entire life". That is, he (the doctor) was telling me (the patient) that I had treated him badly. In other words, I was the bad parent and he was the injured child.

I do think this reversal takes place to a lesser extent in many such interactions.

as to why you believe that your therapist is trying to "fix" you because of your belief that he did not get approval and security from his own parents. What indicates your belief, other than his desire to be helpful and to "improve" his clients?

It could very well be true, but without any facts to support this claim, it is likely that it is simply an erroneous belief on your part...

Are you sure you aren't just jumping to conclusions...

I may be jumping. I am very sensitive, because of my history, to attempts to control under the guise of "helping". I think lots of people here share similar sensitivities. I find it very hard to realize that attempts to control come not from a powerful person but from someone who does not feel powerful.

I also don't know if your saying that most therapists have some kind of unresolved issues as a reason for being a therapist? Therapists don't do very well as therapists for very long if they haven't already learned how to cope with whatever therapy interfering emotions, thoughts, and behaviors they might not have effectively dealt with.

I am not sure I said MOST therapists. I also think that some therapists can continue to practice and do damage which is not recognized by their peers or themselves for a long time.

I find it very odd, and if true (and not a cognitive distortion of some sort), I find it very disturbing that most of your therapists have wanted you to take care of them.

I think it is a matter of degree, and that I am very sensitive to it.

Have you met many other people who have/are gone/going through therapy who have had similar experiences with their therapist? Have they come to similar conclusions, or are your repeat experiences unique regarding therapists turning the tables on you?

Not unique, no. For instance, I read once a patient's account who said he was told by his therapist that he would die if he left her.

I'm certainly not discounting your concerns, as it is quite possible that you got the run of the bad apples-- and in that case I hope you stop seeing the one you have currently before they cause more damage. What are your thoughts on this?

I think I am unusually (pathologically? ) sensitive to the condition. I do not necessarily think of them as "bad apples". I think of them as being pretty ordinary by the standards of present day therapy -- and that is not good enough in severe cases.

[pegasus]

Sounds like you are looking for the perfect therapist!

What is your idea of the perfect therapist?

[Mouse_]

Don't think its looking for a perfect therapist, I'm reading it as trying to externalise internal fears..

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by pegasus

Sounds like you are looking for the perfect therapist!

I certainly am!

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

I'm reading it as trying to externalise internal fears..

Could you explain this Mouse? I do not think I understand fully.

[pegasus]

And what is your idea of the perfect therapist pachyderm?

[Mouse_]

Welll, you know and I know and the world knows there is no such thing as perfection.....and once we feel safe and secure inside, we can withstand others imperfections...we dont feel as if we will be destroyed...we know imperfections can be worked through and are survivable..but when we have these fears within ourselfs..when we our selfs are not perfect and of course can never be.. we give them away....and then they come back to us as even more powerfully to us...we are wanting guarentees that we will never have to experience someone elses mistakes or errors because we haven't mastered our own..so when we come across someone elses humaness, it seems much disturbing to us that it necessarly has to be...as long as things are good enought, that will be good enought...when we face our own limitiations then we can deal with the limitations around us?.....dunno I could be wrong, but this has been my experience.....its your own perfection you are craving for and that will never be...

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by pegasus

And what is your idea of the perfect therapist pachyderm?

One who understands enough about what is going on that he knows what to do if I get into the terrible trouble that I fear can happen -- and which I have seen some of in reality.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

...once we feel safe and secure inside, we can withstand others imperfections...

Yes. I am not yet in that position of feeling safety and security. I can see its possibility but I am not sure of it.

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

One who understands enough about what is going on that he knows what to do if I get into the terrible trouble that I fear can happen -- and which I have seen some of in reality.

NO one says that failings do not go on in "real" time, but its the reaction to them and the lenghts one goes to, to try and guarentee it never happens again and by doing that shuts off the possiblity of ever finding someone else???...if someone fails big time then yes they are not doing a good enought job and one hopes to find someone that will be able to help....

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

NO one says that failings do not go on in "real" time, but its the reaction to them and the lenghts one goes to, to try and guarentee it never happens again and by doing that shuts off the possiblity of ever finding someone else???

That's the dilemma, isn't it?

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I am not trying to assign "badness" to therapists that I think are not doing their jobs as well as I think they should. I do have strong feelings about it at times, but that does not mean they are "bad".

I think I was sensitized to this especially by my first therapist, who declared to me the last time we met that "I have never been treated as badly by anyone before in my entire life". That is, he (the doctor) was telling me (the patient) that I had treated him badly. In other words, I was the bad parent and he was the injured child.

I do think this reversal takes place to a lesser extent in many such interactions.

I may be jumping. I am very sensitive, because of my history, to attempts to control under the guise of "helping". I think lots of people here share similar sensitivities. I find it very hard to realize that attempts to control come not from a powerful person but from someone who does not feel powerful.

I am not sure I said MOST therapists. I also think that some therapists can continue to practice and do damage which is not recognized by their peers or themselves for a long time.

I think it is a matter of degree, and that I am very sensitive to it.

Not unique, no. For instance, I read once a patient's account who said he was told by his therapist that he would die if he left her.

I think I am unusually (pathologically? ) sensitive to the condition. I do not necessarily think of them as "bad apples". I think of them as being pretty ordinary by the standards of present day therapy -- and that is not good enough in severe cases.

((((((((((pachy))))))))))
I would absolutely despise your former therapist who told you that you were "treating them badly" ---You know, that would really unnerve me. My bad experiences seem to be with psychiatrists, not therapists--and oh yes, it can be very damaging and I have had thoughts where I wanted to do things I don't want to mention on this board -because of it. And I'm one of the allegedly "less pathological" and more "normal" patients! lol--

I think that you ended up with a really bad therapist, and he was covering up his insecurities as indicated by his defensiveness and inappropriate attack on you (for his failure). What did you say/do in return to that ******** statement of his?

I am VERY sensitive to bad therapists and bad psychiatrists and bad doctors of all flags myself. I actually don't consider it "sensitivity", but I know that less educated (about the system) people would consider me sensitive. Rather, I am ultra AWARE. I find many people are far too permissive when it comes to being "guided" or "helped" by who they see as an authority figure who because of their title, degree, educational level, money, or other social status---as valid, accurate, and to be obeyed even in the face of obvious logical flaws.

I actually find it frustrating that more people do not take more control of themselves, and instead let this type of jerk tell them who they think they are--when they have their heads so far up their assses that they couldn't tell you if it was daylight outside or not.

At least you know what is ******** and what is not.
---Please forgive my abnormally excessive use of profanity---

[pachyderm]

> What did you say/do in return to that ******** statement of his?

At the time I was too beaten down to do anything. In any case it was the last time we met.