[phoenix7]

SO I went for my 2nd pdoc appt -

after the first one i emailed her - she said it was ok - and told her that I had been distressed when I left her office and that a couple of things had triggered me - that I had not been sure seeing a pdoc was going to help but that it had helped me realise things i needed to work on with my psychologist (she had mentioned me seeing a T at her practice but I told her I had one i trusted - she said that was ok)

So last time it was all - you could see a T for another year and still not be ok - but I can help you out of this in 6 months - she told me I was a challenge (didnt know what to make of that - what do you say when someone says you're a challenge?)

This time - she said she hadnt realised I was upset when I left - hmm the session finished 10 mins early cos I dried up shut down and was only saying yes or no - she said I thought you were happy -
she said that she had read my history (strange cos she took 10 mins out of my previous session to read my history)and had decided that seeing a pdoc wouldnt help that I needed a T for talk therapy (what happened to you could see one for a year and still be unwell and I can fix this in 6 months) she said I should stay on my anti-d's for another YEAR! even after my dr and I had both said they werent helping me much - she said that i must have disassociated when I SI like I did when I was a child to see if I could feel anything - and I said no as I had already said it was to ground myself and let the pain out - and that I had few if any memories of the violence and SA in my childhood and she said "See!" hmmm now imagine the sound of crickets in the background......(and i didnt SI in my childhood either)

I felt I should be but i didnt know what for? she said she had already written to my dr to tell her so flashed the letter on her screen said see and then flashed it off again - maybe i wasnt enough of a challenge? maybe with the history of childhood SA and violence - she went washed her hands and decide I was either too crazy or not crazy enough?

What is it they say - every time a door shuts... another one slams in your face LOL

maybe I just dont belong here

oh just remembered she also said I should tell my T about "learned helplessness" apparently they shocked a rat every time it went for food and then in the end it starved to death cos it wouldnt go near the food even when the electricity was turned off - I said that was very sad for the rat and very bad of the scientists - but I dont get what she is trying to tell me? adn I was too rabbit in the headlights to ask - and now its too late..... dunno?!

I guess this is what i am always afraid of - to have a hand held out and then taken away when I accept help offered...

[Luce]

Wow. That sounds totally confusing.

I can't make much sense of the comments she made or even begin to figure out what she was trying to get at. What I do know is that is really doesn't sound like you two have a connection, and that both times you have seen her have hurt and confused you far more than they have helped.

If you want to see a pdoc, I'd honestly suggest you see someone else. You can take the power out of her 'dumping' you if you make a decision about preferring to not see her, too. She sure sounds a little too presumptuous for me.

Sorry she's given you such a hard time. My own t is confusing me too, and it isn't fun.

[phoenix7]

Sorry you are having probs with your T Luce, Im just sad now - its the bad child thing - part of me is saying that its my fault - that she realised what sort of person I am and didnt want a bar of it - the bad child that nobody wants to play with because she wears hand me downs.... soiled by SA .... why does one thing trigger another...

No, I wont go back even though she said she left the door open - we didnt connect - I need somone who will notice if I shut down - dont know if I will see another - couldnt really afford to see this one - that's life ay!

(((((((((((P7)))))))))))

i agree with what luce said. she sounds kinda nutty and not for you. i hate to say it but i do think there are quite a few odd birds in that industry. there are good ones though too as i have one who is excellent. don't give up and keep trusting your own judgements.

[sunrise]

Well, it sounds confusing, all right.

Originally Posted by phoenix7

she told me I was a challenge (didnt know what to make of that - what do you say when someone says you're a challenge?)

With a pdoc, I might think a challenge would mean a patient who presented with a combination of symptoms that they are not used to prescribing for. I think an appropriate response would be, "so, do you think that my presenting symptoms fall outside of your scope of practice?"

i emailed her - she said it was ok - and told her that I had been distressed when I left her office and that a couple of things had triggered me

I wonder if she just wants a stream of patients with simple diagnoses that she can apply a tried and true medication formula to, not someone who is going to be distressed and contact her outside of the monthly visit. I think some of these docs are not comfortable with things like that and just want to focus on symptoms and medications.

phoenix, why is it you are visiting the pdoc? What do you hope to get from her? It sounds like you already have a doc who is prescribing meds to you. Do you think that doc is unsatisfactory and want more of an expert? Did someone refer you to the pdoc? It sounds like you want to stop taking anti-Ds, so what do you want from the pdoc? A different kind of medication? A medical diagnosis that your doc and T can't give? A tapering plan?

she said that she had read my history (strange cos she took 10 mins out of my previous session to read my history)and had decided that seeing a pdoc wouldnt help

Where did she get your history? Did your doctor send it to her? Unless the case is super complicated (and maybe yours is), I think it is best to start with a new practitioner without them having notes about you in hand. I think it is important that they take a history themselves and not be biased by another's report.

that I needed a T for talk therapy

Doesn't she know you are in talk therapy?

she said I should stay on my anti-d's for another YEAR! even after my dr and I had both said they werent helping me much

Sounds like she is treating you. Or at least offering medical advice.... If she thinks that what you need is talk therapy and that seeing a pdoc won't help, why does she think you should take anti-Ds?

Phoenix, I'm sorry you had this bewildering experience. I think it is probably better if you don't see her again. At the very least, it sounds like the two of you don't communicate well, as you left her office with so much confusion about what she was saying and doing.

Phoenix, your experience of going to see a pdoc is really different from mine. With mine, we don't talk about the past, about past SI or SA or any of that. We talk about current symptomology and not the origins of the symptoms. The T tries to help with the other stuff. Is it important that you share personal details like those with the pdoc?

Phoenix, can you check back with whoever recommended you see a pdoc and get their input? It sounds like it was your doc if that is who the pdoc was sending her letter to. Can you ask you doc why you should be seeing a pdoc? Is it because you need a good taper plan for the ADs? Need a second opinion on the meds your doc is prescribing you?

I'm sorry you had such a puzzler of an experience with this pdoc. I hope you won't let this deter you from getting the care you need. It just sounds like this was not the right practitioner for you. Maybe your T can help you process what happened.

Good luck.

[Rapunzel]

I see this differently. I think that mayby the Pdoc could have done a better job of making sure that both of you understood each other correctly, but I think what she said was intended to be helpful.

Pdocs don't usually do therapy these days, and don't really have the time to talk about most of what would be addressed in therapy, and usually they don't have the same training that therapists do. They mostly prescribe medication.

What I'm hearing here is that abuse history doesn't get fixed by medication (although it might help with managing current symptoms), and you would be better off if you had therapy to address what happened to you and how it is affecting you now.

Also, I think she was trying to point you in the direction of a starting place. Learned helplessness, applied to people, means that when you have been in a no-win situation and you couldn't get out of it, you learn that nothing that you do is going to work, and there is no point in trying. It is very sad, but that is how that stuff affects us. There is an up side though. If you can learn helplessness, then you can also learn to overcome it. But it takes work and someone to help you to re-learn. That's a good thing to talk about in therapy.

Martin Seligman originally presented the concept of "learned helplessness." He didn't stop there. He noticed that animals that had been affected by learned helplessness recovered when he worked with them and taught them that they could escape the painful or uncomfortable situation, and get what they wanted. Now Martin Seligman teaches about "learned optimism." If you google his name or "learned optimism" or "learned helplessness" you will find a wealth of information.

[phoenix7]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Well, it sounds confusing, all right.

ok so I answered this and lost it for the 2nd time - maybe..... drat computer gremlins - not really - its me - I pushed the wrong button - maybe thats what I did with the Pdoc?
I wonder if she just wants a stream of patients with simple diagnoses that she can apply a tried and true medication formula to, not someone who is going to be distressed and contact her outside of the monthly visit. I think some of these docs are not comfortable with things like that and just want to focus on symptoms and medications.

She encouraged me to email any questions or if I got distressed so we could answer them at the next appt - when she said I was a challenge she was smiling and said that was good... maybe im not challenging enough???

phoenix, why is it you are visiting the pdoc?

I asked my dr who I trust if I could go off the anti- d's - told her actually - she asked if I still had su/Si thoughts and I said occassionally - so she asked if I would see a pdoc and see if there was a diff med that would help (Avanza used to help me sleep - but since my anniv- the dreams wake me up ) and I said I would - she said shed met this pdoc and she seemed nice

Where did she get your history?

A few days before I nsaw the pdoc their mental health nurse contacted me so she could get a history as thats what they do to save the pdoc time so I said ok - funny thing though she asked all aobut my childhood - then said well its best not to discuss that - childhood stuff needs to be left alone - I told her I wasnt here for that - start of my confusion

Doesn't she know you are in talk therapy?

yep I told her - and re-told her when she asked if i wanted to see a T at her practice - she seemed ok with that

Sounds like she is treating you. Or at least offering medical advice.... If she thinks that what you need is talk therapy and that seeing a pdoc won't help, why does she think you should take anti-Ds?

I dont know - im so confused - maybe cos the history showed that Im still depressed and have occassional SI/SU thoughts - who knows?

Phoenix, I'm sorry you had this bewildering experience. I think it is probably better if you don't see her again. At the very least, it sounds like the two of you don't communicate well, as you left her office with so much confusion about what she was saying and doing.
no, not going back - she said she'd leave the door open (why when she says I dont need a pdoc>) but im closing it

Phoenix, your experience of going to see a pdoc is really different from mine. With mine, we don't talk about the past, about past SI or SA or any of that. We talk about current symptomology and not the origins of the symptoms. The T tries to help with the other stuff. Is it important that you share personal details like those with the pdoc?
what you do is exactly what i expected - I didnt think I would be sharing stuff with her - I thought she would be for meds and my T for therapy
I;m still not sure what she was offering ...... I am going to check back with my dr and take it from there - but I am NOT going back there

I'm sorry you had such a puzzler of an experience with this pdoc. I hope you won't let this deter you from getting the care you need. It just sounds like this was not the right practitioner for you. Maybe your T can help you process what happened.

Good luck.

thanks, yes I will talk with T about it when I see her in 2 weeks - geez that's such a long time away ...... last session was about what she said to upset me at the first session with pdoc - I'm just sad now..... and I dont understand... what happened to change her from we can fix this - to you dont need a pdoc....

[phoenix7]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I see this differently. I think that mayby the Pdoc could have done a better job of making sure that both of you understood each other correctly, but I think what she said was intended to be helpful.

Pdocs don't usually do therapy these days, and don't really have the time to talk about most of what would be addressed in therapy, and usually they don't have the same training that therapists do. They mostly prescribe medication.

and thats all I wanted her to do - I made it clear I had a therapist

What I'm hearing here is that abuse history doesn't get fixed by medication (although it might help with managing current symptoms), and you would be better off if you had therapy to address what happened to you and how it is affecting you now.

the SA didnt even get mentioned till today and she said to just get therapy on and off when I had need of it for that and I said I didnt have any need of it!
Also, I think she was trying to point you in the direction of a starting place. Learned helplessness, applied to people, means that when you have been in a no-win situation and you couldn't get out of it, you learn that nothing that you do is going to work, and there is no point in trying. It is very sad, but that is how that stuff affects us. There is an up side though. If you can learn helplessness, then you can also learn to overcome it. But it takes work and someone to help you to re-learn. That's a good thing to talk about in therapy.
I have never stopped fighting - I never gave up - I have fought these symptoms of ptsd over and over - sometimes I may lay down for a while - but I always get up again - I wont let my past or my present beat me - by offering hope/help and then taking it away she only re-inforces what I learned as a child and have tried to unlearn - that people will always let you down .... she didnt explain in what context the learned helplessness was - its like givng a kid a spoon in a kitchen and saying go cook! I will discuss this with my T next time i see her - which is way too far away - for crying out loud - I dont want to be weak and I dont want to spiral like this over stupid words!
Martin Seligman originally presented the concept of "learned helplessness." He didn't stop there. He noticed that animals that had been affected by learned helplessness recovered when he worked with them and taught them that they could escape the painful or uncomfortable situation, and get what they wanted. Now Martin Seligman teaches about "learned optimism." If you google his name or "learned optimism" or "learned helplessness" you will find a wealth of information.

I have his book authentic happiness - guess I should read it -
thankyou for putting a different viewpoint - I have no doubt she meant to be helpful - we obviously didnt communicate - if I spiral its my own fault because I give the words power - I need to stop that - thanks again

[Mouse_]

When I was trying to get help for yrs, I was involved with the "system", their choice of pdoc, their choice of counsellor and no one seemed to be seeing "me", they were talking the talk, but none of it had much connection with what I was feeling...now I am with a T that works privately, I see what a great difference their is...reading your first post, and your last remark about the poor rat and the awful scientist (which cracked me up LOL) I'd say you are in the best position to say what you feel is right for you and this pdoc sounds like a donkeys ***!!

[KUREHA]

Sorry it didn't go well with her, my second appointment didn't go so well, but for a different reason, well it was going ok until the nurse got there maybe I just have a problem with them.

Are you going to see another psychiatrist?
Some of the things she said don't seem right though.

[phoenix7]

thanks Mouse - your comment about a donkeys *** made me smile

KUREAH - sorry your 2nd appt didnt go well - hope things are ok with you

[KUREHA]

Thanks

Yeah I blame the nurse for that, think I've got to start seeing a different psychiatrist though - I don't want too and I don't know why.

[skeksi]

It sounds like the pdoc was clumsily trying to help. The important thing is that you didn't feel heard or like you understood her reasoning, which is a good reason to try a second pdoc to find a better fit.

My first pdoc was not very helpful to me and not very attentive to what was really going on. It took me a long time to get up the nerve for a second opinion, but I'm glad I got one, because now I feel like the combination of meds and T is really serving me well.

Remember, you have the right to be dissatisfied and to seek an opinion from another doctor.

[phoenix7]

thanks Skeksi, I'm glad you found a pdoc that is a good fit - I guess I get frustrated with myself enough wihtout having to be frustrated by not understanding what the pdoc meant - I will see my dr and .... dunno.... will see...

I just cant get from the "we'll have this over in 6 months " to " I/a pdoc cant help you - just keep taking the meds for a year" - guess I just have to try and let it go as something i dont understand and probably never will ....

[deliquesce]

hey sweetie,
sorry im still a bit flitty from meds and cant concentrate for too long. but i did manage to get through the title of your thread(!) ~ and the rest of the post .

unfort i read it a few hrs ago and really, really cant read it again right now but i wanted to say that if you wanted a new pdoc mine is great and i'd happily give you his details.

or also the ppl at the brain & mind research institute are phenomenally awesome (and they bulk bill).

it's a shame that pdocs (and Ts) can be so crap these days. my ex went to a pdoc once, and the appt went like this:
pdoc: how are you?
ex: crap. i cant go on.
pdoc: surely you're not that bad! you just need to look at things the right way.
ex: ...
(pdoc does a history and gets around to asking): sui ideation?
ex: attempted twice last week.
pdoc: oh. so i suppose you've been feeling a bit sad...

i wouldn't have believed my ex had i not been in the room myself.

pdocs can be weird, huh?

[lifelesstraveled]

((((P7))))

That sounded like a pretty confusing appointment! I am sorry everything got so mucked up during that appointment--i would've left feeling too.

Can you tell your pdoc the next time you see her or even call her and tell her about your confusion? Or, even find another pdoc? Like Deli's?

[phoenix7]

thanks Deli, I may take you up on your offer! - maybe later when things have settled - but thanks - hope things are better for you now.hey, maybe your ex went to the same pdoc as me! LOL

Lifelesstravelled - im not going back to her - ive had two appts and spiralled after both of them - once because of somthing she said - and this time cos I had no idea why it changed from I can help you to I cant help you but Im leaving the door open? I still dont understand - if she cant help me why leave the door open? so I can see how nice the furniture is? LOL
may go and see another pdoc ...... have an appt with my dr tues - will see ....

I know that its how I react to the situation thats the problem....... spiralling is so dumb..... I tell myself that I cant change what happened but I can change how I react to it..... that I need to not give her words power to upset me - but I still keep wondering what I did wrong.... I know thats dumb - we just didnt "fit" as a team - but..... I have a tendancy to over analyze - am I doing that? I just want to understand.... maybe my dr will know why - the letter the pdoc flashed up on the screen was a long one eek!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

phoenix, why is it you are visiting the pdoc?

I asked my dr who I trust if I could go off the anti- d's - told her actually - she asked if I still had su/Si thoughts and I said occassionally - so she asked if I would see a pdoc and see if there was a diff med that would help (Avanza used to help me sleep - but since my anniv- the dreams wake me up ) and I said I would - she said shed met this pdoc and she seemed nice

Maybe if you see another pdoc, you could try to keep the session focused and tell the pdoc exactly why you are there. It seems like the last interaction was going every which way. Even from reading what you wrote above I am not sure quite why you are there. It sounds like two things: 1) you want to stop your current AD. Be prepared to tell the pdoc why you want to quit (you are having bad side effects? you don't feel you need it anymore because you are not depressed or have developed effective non-med coping mechanisms, etc.) 2) You want to try a new medication. Be prepared to answer what you want the new med for. Is it for depression? If so, be prepared to say why you don't want to stick with the one you are on? If it is for sleeping, state that clearly and list your poor sleeping symptoms. Sometimes we can really help these guys out by being very clear and not straying from the basic message so they know what questions we need answered and what our goals are.

I wish you better luck on your next try. I also think your debrief with your T will be really helpful, and also getting back to your doc, who was the one who wanted you to see a pdoc in the first place. I wonder what your doc will say about pdoc not thinking you needed her help?

((((((((((((((((((((((P7))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Eeeek! How confusing!

Don't beat yourself up for spiraling - I mean, that appointment seriously seemed to make no sense. Just know it was the PDOC and not YOU that made it confusing. Maybe that will help stop the spiral...

I hope you can get some clarity from your doc.

[phoenix7]

thanks sunrise and Earthmama,

I will definately be clear and concise about what I expect next time and will ask what they think im there for too -

i wanted to come off the anti-d's cos they werent covering my symptoms - so why be tired all the time if the meds dont help - if its the meds that make me tired - dunno ?- but I thought if i came off I could see if I could manage without - does that sound nuts? I was open to a diff med if it would help with my symptoms thats why I agreed to see the pdoc -
then it all hit the fan as they say LOL

i'm ok now - my inner child is stil shouting "what did you do this time! " in an accusing tone - but hey thats what eating chocolate is for - shutting up the child inside!!!

[phoenix7]

So I wrote this and its helped me sort things out a bit - and of course all of you guys helped too - thankyou

I don't understand

why does this sadness hang around
if i could cry - i'd probably drown
words people say dance round in my head
making me want to just hide in my bed

she said helpless and powerless
I dont understand
Ive taken as much as I think I can stand

I may lay down for a rest or two
but I get up fighting
its somthing i do

so why did she say with a smile on her face
I cannot help you
this isnt the place

she said she could help me
then withdrew her hand
I guess it was my fault
I dont understand....

her words chase around and around in my head
helpless and powerless
thats what she said....

the spiral im in wont make me feel better
this cannot be fixed by sending a letter
so I'll just have to say STOP!!!
let her words flow away
amazing you're hurt
by the words people say.

But maybe its not the words that were said
that rattle and prattle around in my head
maybe its the gaps the things that arnt said
that cause all this turmoil inside of my head

now how can I fix this,
prove her wrong to the letter
I know what I'LL do
I WILL GET BETTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peaches100]

I think you should send this to your t.

[phoenix7]

thanks peaches100, I probably will show it to T - I wish I could just let it go.......

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I see this differently. I think that mayby the Pdoc could have done a better job of making sure that both of you understood each other correctly, but I think what she said was intended to be helpful.

Pdocs don't usually do therapy these days, and don't really have the time to talk about most of what would be addressed in therapy, and usually they don't have the same training that therapists do. They mostly prescribe medication.

What I'm hearing here is that abuse history doesn't get fixed by medication (although it might help with managing current symptoms), and you would be better off if you had therapy to address what happened to you and how it is affecting you now.

Also, I think she was trying to point you in the direction of a starting place. Learned helplessness, applied to people, means that when you have been in a no-win situation and you couldn't get out of it, you learn that nothing that you do is going to work, and there is no point in trying. It is very sad, but that is how that stuff affects us. There is an up side though. If you can learn helplessness, then you can also learn to overcome it. But it takes work and someone to help you to re-learn. That's a good thing to talk about in therapy.

Martin Seligman originally presented the concept of "learned helplessness." He didn't stop there. He noticed that animals that had been affected by learned helplessness recovered when he worked with them and taught them that they could escape the painful or uncomfortable situation, and get what they wanted. Now Martin Seligman teaches about "learned optimism." If you google his name or "learned optimism" or "learned helplessness" you will find a wealth of information.

Martin Seligman also tortured dogs with painful electric shocks in order to induce what he considered to be "learned helplessness".
Dogs do not have the same brains that humans have. We are markedly more complex than dogs. Seligman tried to formulate a universal theory--but sometimes this isn't as simple as he portrayed it to be.

It's impossible for us to know here what Phoenix's Pdoc was really getting at, considering her vague responses---but I definitely think that she should ditch this one altogether. It makes it just one more complication, and we don't need that.

I couldn't agree more about the lack of training in Pdocs though. I actually think they are going downhill even in the medication management department.

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

I will definately be clear and concise about what I expect next time and will ask what they think im there for too -

i wanted to come off the anti-d's cos they werent covering my symptoms - so why be tired all the time if the meds dont help - if its the meds that make me tired - dunno ?- but I thought if i came off I could see if I could manage without - does that sound nuts? I was open to a diff med if it would help with my symptoms thats why I agreed to see the pdoc -
then it all hit the fan as they say LOL

hurro chicken,

yknow what? pdoc's should be better than the dud you got stuck with there. they deal with people who have intractable mental illnesses - we're definitely not failing them if we show up without a clear, concise list of symptoms and possible medications we would like to try. that is their job to figure out!

what i would do - stop the medication you are on now (it doesn't seem to be effective anyway). show up to a doc (GP/pdoc) and say "hey, i've stop my AD because it did jack all, please give me another one". any doc worth their salt will then work with you to pinpoint what was wrong with the previous one (it was making you tired, it wasn't alleviating symptoms etc) and prescribe you another one. simple.

from experience - if energy is a problem for you when you are depressed, then edronax is a good antidepressant. if you are dealing with symptoms of ptsd, then abilify is a good med for that, which also has activating effects.

of course - maybe it was the AD that made you so tired to begin with, in with case you wouldn't need an AD that made you more energetic, just one that didn't tamp down on you so much.

also - i think you know(?) that i've got ptsd, and whilst yes, i think therapy is vital in overcoming it, i need meds to even help me get to the point where i can process some of that stuff. so poo on your pdoc for suggesting you take a hike .