[ECHOES]

I think that reading here interferes with my therapy. In my therapy, the therapist maintains neutrality and does not direct the therapy. This is the therapy I want yet I am also conflicted.

T does many caring things, accepting phone calls, offering her cell #, returning phone calls when asked, adjusting her fee, etc. But I feel conflicted because it doesn't feel personal. I also want the therapist who hugs, holds a hand, etc. Yet if she did those things, I know I would feel in danger of .. being smothered, patronized, the anxieties reinforced...?

I read here and then I feel disappointed that my experiences with my therapist don't compare. I take that with me to therapy and then it feels like something she is doing, something she is denying me when in truth it is just my thought and not something she is offering or denying. But I react to it, by being quiet, by sitting silently in anger, by devaluing what she does offer, until lately I've just felt this nothingness about therapy and about her. I feel it yet I remember when I didn't feel it so I am trying to just let it happen without acting on it (quitting therapy).

Or maybe I'm looking for reasons to withdraw, wanting (as we've talked about) her to draw me out. Testing her? Testing me?
I spent much of my childhood and youth secluded in my room in emotional pain and confusion. I wanted the love I saw in the world, but not in my world.
Maybe I am there again.

[Mouse_]

Echoes, You know perhaps this could be a way to learn to accept that whats happening in your therapy is enought, and that what other people describe is their experience?? that you dont have to rub out yours because you've seen someone elses? This is life, some marriages are different to my marriage, some mothers mother different to how I do it...its about finding what it is you are wanting within you and your world experience..you can never, ever know what else is truely going on for someone else...perhaps some need to post these positive things about handholding etc because they really feel theres not really anything else that concrete in their theraputic relationship? its about discovering our own experiences and joys. Its about having that self certainty, its not really about hand holding..

[lifelesstraveled]

(((((echoes)))))))

I agree with mouse. Can you just accept that YOUR therapy is enough? Accept that your T is giving you all she feels you need?

Your T is still caring sans the hand holding and hugging. Can you look at/keep in mind everything your T does for you instead what what she doesnt do to show that she cares? (she calls you back when needed, gives you her cell number, which lets you know it's okay to call her when needed etc)

I always get the great advice to not ompare my therapy to anyone elses, can you do that?

I think it's natural to want to compare our therapy to other people's...and look for areas where out therapist comes up short....or worse, for "proof" that they don't *really* care about us!!

I go through phases where I quiz T on what therapy is like with his other clients. Does he draw with them?? (I noticed pastels on his desk). How many other people have a marble? Does anyone else dissociate? Does he hate it when I dissociate?

I did ask him if I was his favorite dissociative client. LOL - He laughed and OBVIOUSLY didn't answer. I was like "well, is there ONE client that you like less than me?" and he said yes, but laughed that now I would use that against him, like "oh great, I'm T's second least favorite client" (I didn't go there btw).

T tries to make me understand that my hour is my hour, and that what goes on during that hour is what matters. That during that hour, *I* am his most important client, and he is there totally for me. Somehow, I seem to have accepted that for right now.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Echoes)))))))))))))))))))))))))) I'm sorry you're having a hard time with T right now.

[searchingmysoul]

(((((((((((ECHOES))))))))))))

You know, I have also felt this exact same way:

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I think that reading here interferes with my therapy. In my therapy, the therapist maintains neutrality and does not direct the therapy. T does many caring things, accepting phone calls, offering her cell #, returning phone calls when asked, adjusting her fee, etc. But I feel conflicted because it doesn't feel personal. I also want the therapist who hugs, holds a hand, etc. Yet if she did those things, I know I would feel in danger of .. I read here and then I feel disappointed that my experiences with my therapist don't compare.

I have taken the experiences that I read here in the back of my mind into that room and that relationship and wished for all of these things that I think I SHOULD have. What I have come to realize recently is that in that room I AM getting exactly what I need. I am getting exactly the tenderness and connection and physical space that is right for me. You see, I think that I want all of these other things that others have written. Last week I asked for something that I thought I wanted and got it in the moment. After though, I felt very strongly that what I had asked for and received was not in actuality something that I am comfortable with. My T and I talked about it in the next session and I was very clear to express that what I had asked for was not something I feel okay with. Nothing terribly exciting- I asked for her to sit with me on the couch. But I learned that I need physical space and separation to feel safe. It was a good experience to have and has left me not only with a better sense of myself and what it is that I need and want but also a clear picture of how the grass is not always greener. Or maybe that the grass on my side is just as green and cool and soft as what others have.



Take care Echoes.

[SpottedOwl]

((((ECHOS))))

I read here and then I feel disappointed that my experiences with my therapist don't compare.

What are you really disappointed in? Is this somehow triggering a feeling that you don't deserve to heal, or that you aren't doing enough in therapy?

It can be really easy to look outside of ourselves when we're unhappy with our present situation. This board may exaggerate some things, because it is not an complete representation of what is happening.

Like with the hugging and hand holding. I have posted here about how some touch has been healing for me in the room. What was left out of that post was the 100 (approx) sessions leading up to that moment when T and I both stood for a hug. Then the next 10 sessions of processing that one hug. Then the hours and hours of thinking about it on my own... One post where I say 'I had this amazing connection with T today' does not really show the HUGE amount of work it took to get there.

It sounds like you have a great T, and that she is creating a safe place for you to heal. Whether you ever actually hug or not, just talking about the desire to be hugged can be really powerful.

Lots of virtual hugs for ya!

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Echoes,

Your post resonated with me once again!

In my therapy, the therapist maintains neutrality and does not direct the therapy. This is the therapy I want yet I am also conflicted.

Same here. My T does NOT give me direction, rather he makes me squirm and take the lead. He says it's MY therapy. And on the few occasions when he brought something up at the beginning of session I got pissed off!

I wanted the love I saw in the world, but not in my world.
Maybe I am there again.

It sounds like it. In my last session on Thursday, T and I were talking about feeling separate from others; on the outside looking in, etc. It's a very lonely place for a child and for adults too!

T does many caring things, accepting phone calls, offering her cell #, returning phone calls when asked, adjusting her fee, etc.

I hope you don't mind if I rephrase this: "I DO have a good and nice mother. She works hard, buys Chinese take out on payday, etc."

((((((((((Echoes)))))))))))

You take care. You are doing such good work with this therapy; noticing so many patterns.

[sunrise]

(((((((ECHOES)))))))

I think different therapists do different things and there may be times in our lives when we need different things. At one time you had a therapist who emphasized guided imagery and wouldn't let you take the lead and do talk therapy. So you found someone who did let you do talk therapy. And I have read many wonderful things about your therapist from you and about your sessions. I remember you had wanted someone with the traditional psychoanalytic approach, and with that comes the blank slate, little self-disclosure, lots of distance, little physical contact, etc. So at one time you wanted these things. But now maybe you have discovered a need for something else? Maybe you can't get that with the current therapist but maybe you can use therapy to work on getting it in your life with other people? That could fulfill that need in you too. One of the things I want to work on in therapy in the near future is the lack of "deep" and meaningful relationships in my life. T is going to help me with that. It's great that I have a deep and meaningful relationship with him, but that is not enough for me.

In my own therapy, my T is not psychoanalytic, and I take the lead in my therapy. He explained that to me the first day, that only I knew what I needed to heal, so I had to take the lead. Very early on we realized how I needed a reciprocal relationship and self disclosure from him; thank goodness his theoretical orientation (humanistic psych, family systems) can accommodate that or I might not have been able to go very far with him in therapy. He gives me a lot of what I need, but to be honest, there are times when I read on PC about what others get from their T's and I kinda wish I had those things too. Like some people are allowed to email their hearts out to their T's and write about substantive issues. Others are allowed to have 2 sessions a week. Others phone their T's frequently and get calls back and receive support over the phone. Others sit on the couch next to their T's and hold hands. My T doesn't do or allow any of these things. My T and I do hug at the end of about half of our sessions, so I get this physical touch and it is truly wonderful, but it is never in the middle of sessions. Yet he is very, very warm; during the session he will sometimes say "I am hugging you right now" and he makes a hugging motion with his arms. I feel very held and warm at those times and don't need his arms to touch me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that our T's are our T's and there is a wide diversity of T behavior out there. No single T is going to do it all. We can look in on other's therapy but we may be idealizing it from snippets we read here. ECHOES, maybe you wouldn't like a T like mine, who hugs at the end of sessions sometimes but doesn't take phone calls. Maybe you wouldn't want a guy who lets you lead in therapy but self discloses frequently. Who eats in session and takes out his laptop from time to time and even answers his phone occasionally. Last time his phone vibrated right near the end of our session, he looked at it and said its my wife and she's probably wondering where I am--I was his last client of the day-- and he answered the phone and said "Hi gorgeous." I'm more than OK with that. I love how he loves his wife. I have even had a dream about her in which we were friendly. But a lot of people here on PC would hit the ceiling if that happened in their therapy. So I'm just trying to stress that no one T is going to have everything you find ideal. And what you find ideal may change over time. If you do need more warmth, maybe that is a recent discovery, and if gets to really dominate things, maybe you would even seek out another T. I'm not suggesting that, as I think you and your T seem very close and have done great work, with more to come. I think we can learn to work within our therapist's constraints, up to a certain point, and then if we really believe we need something different to continue our healing journey, we are always free to move on.

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I think that reading here interferes with my therapy.

I think the trick is to not let it interfere. Sure I want some of what others have in therapy, but it doesn't alter my own therapy in a negative way. Could that be something you could work on--how to be more accepting of others' situations and not let them impinge on yours? What your post makes me worry about is that you will decide that reading about other people's therapy here on PC is a negative for you and you will stop coming here. Because I would really miss you and your posts and insights and support if that happened.

[MissCharlotte]

Spotted Owl said:

just talking about the desire to be hugged

Once, quite some time ago I said to T that I felt confused and frustrated by the fact that I felt so close to him yet we don't touch. And he said that it sounded like maybe we should explore what touch means to me.

Originally Posted by sunrise

Like some people are allowed to email their hearts out to their T's and write about substantive issues. Others are allowed to have 2 sessions a week. Others phone their T's frequently and get calls back and receive support over the phone. Others sit on the couch next to their T's and hold hands.

Blah. I am having guilt issues (not caused by any of you, just me and my own head) because all of the above DOES describe my relationship with T. I know I am not only The World's Neediest Client but also totally spoiled!! I do feel lucky to have so much support....but the view from the other side is that there ARE issues that come up when all of the above is allowed that wouldn't come up otherwise. I think every type of therapy has it's benefits and it's challenges.



I would miss you very much if you decided not to read and post anymore, Echoes...

[MissCharlotte]

I don't think anyone here has to justify their relationship with their T. The truth is I have the best T of all. I know you are all jealous of our ruptures.

I am just trying to inject some humor here so we can lighten up a bit. I tell my students that in my classroom, you get what you need. I try to treat each one as an individual. I would hope that each T is the same, and that each and every one of us gets what we need. It is human nature to look at others and think that we need what they have, like when I was little and I wanted a different mom and dad; or when my son was in high school and he wanted me to have long hair not short, lol. Or, you might want the husband who makes a million dollars! I think looking at other therapeutic relationships is in a similar category because it is such an intimate relationship.

By the way, recently I referred to our ruptures and T said, "I think we have just about as many fights as we both can handle." LOLOL

So, it's all okay. We have so many diverse and beautiful relationships to talk about. It would be a truly boring board if they were all the same.

Peace out friends.

[ECHOES]

Thank you all for your replies. It is a good part of therapy to want what you have and to not look outside yourself when it is more helpful to look within. Lots of work there for me to do

It sounds like it. In my last session on Thursday, T and I were talking about feeling separate from others; on the outside looking in, etc. It's a very lonely place for a child and for adults too!

((MissC)) Thanks for getting me

I think the trick is to not let it interfere.

Sunny, I agree. I think mostly I read with curiosity, but sometimes when I'm in a rough spot with T, or think I am, and I don't know what to do, I think it's hard then to read here. I think I'm looking outside instead of inside and maybe looking to blame T. If she was more like another T then all would be perfect. Yeah, sure. lol
You often refer to psychoanalysts as blank slates but that truly applies to very classic analysis where the analysand lies on the couch and free-associates and the analyst speaks only to offer an interpretation. Most therapy today that is analytical is psychodynamic/psychoanalytical and the patient and psychoanalyst sit facing one another (some do lie down) and the therapist offers interpretations and associations and may expand on them.
I suppose the neutrality and minimal self disclosure could feel like a blank slate. It is meant to keep the patient's focus on the patient's issues and not on the therapist's.
You have such a good memory. Yes, this is the therapy I sought and that I want.

mouse said:... you dont have to rub out yours because you've seen someone elses? This is life...its about finding what it is you are wanting within you and your world experience..

Thank you!

Lifelesstravelled said: Can you look at/keep in mind everything your T does for you instead what what she doesnt do to show that she cares?

I will try to focus on what I have and not what I don't have or don't think I have. Therapy and T are what they are, not what they aren't.

earthmama said: I go through phases where I quiz T on what therapy is like with his other clients. Does he draw with them?? (I noticed pastels on his desk).

Oh gosh, I get so jealous when I see the paintbrushes soaking in a jar on her desk. I know some lucky little kid has been in there painting with her *pouts*. (Thank you for saying you would miss me. That means a lot to me. I feel like I don't participate here so much these days and wouldn't be missed.)

searchingmysoul said: I asked for her to sit with me on the couch. But I learned that I need physical space and separation to feel safe.

I have asked this (she won't, but "let's talk about that") and I think as much as I think I want it, I would feel very overwhelmed at the closeness. A few sessions ago we got to the door at the same time and she leaned past me to open it and I surprised myself by leaning way away from her, edging past her to get to the door. Kind of embarassed myself too.

I have posted here about how some touch has been healing for me in the room. What was left out of that post was the 100 (approx) sessions leading up to that moment when T and I both stood for a hug. Then the next 10 sessions of processing that one hug. Then the hours and hours of thinking about it on my own... One post where I say 'I had this amazing connection with T today' does not really show the HUGE amount of work it took to get there.

spottedowl, Thank you for the added perspecctive . If a hug was an everyday experience I suppose one might not post about it... makes sense.

Yeah, I guess it's all okay.
It was so nice of you all to respond. Thank you so much

Originally Posted by ECHOES

In my therapy, the therapist maintains neutrality and does not direct the therapy. This is the therapy I want yet I am also conflicted.

I'm sure this resonates with most of us. A huge part of therapy is learning to tolerate ambiguity and foster autonomy. A non-directive approach helps us be in control. It also helps us explore and examine what it is like to not always think and act in extremes. However, the ambiguity can be frustrating... I know.

T does many caring things, accepting phone calls, offering her cell #, returning phone calls when asked, adjusting her fee, etc. But I feel conflicted because it doesn't feel personal. I also want the therapist who hugs, holds a hand, etc. Yet if she did those things, I know I would feel in danger of .. being smothered, patronized, the anxieties reinforced...?

Have you discussed this with her? I had many (slightly embarrassing) discussions about physical touch-- everything from shaking hands to hand-holding to hugs. We talked about how each one would feel and it felt great when he said that we would never hug, yet he gave me "permission" to visualize and feel how it would be. After about 2 1/2 yrs of seeing him, he held my hand in a moment of deep sadness and pain. He still does this occasionally, particularly to help me become grounded. Sometimes as I leave, he might put his hand on my shoulder briefly. I found the physical touch to be very connecting and empowering, but also frustrating because I wish it could take place every session-- but on the other hand, if it became habitual it might lose its specialness and powerful feeling.

Or maybe I'm looking for reasons to withdraw, wanting (as we've talked about) her to draw me out. Testing her? Testing me?
I spent much of my childhood and youth secluded in my room in emotional pain and confusion. I wanted the love I saw in the world, but not in my world.
Maybe I am there again.

Maybe you are just so used to being isolated that it is very difficult to let someone into your world, your experiences. I think you are right on when you say you are testing her and testing yourself. I think we constantly test our therapists to make sure they don't run away when we express strong emotions-- we are testing to make sure they stay.

[peaches100]

Echoes,

I hope my posts haven't made you feel unhappy with your therapy. I've gone many years in therapy before my t was willing to hug me. I've been in therapy 10 years with her, and she has only hugged me 2 times. So I know very well what it feels like to go without that touch, and how difficult that can be. Recently, when my t hugged me, even though it was what I had been wanting for a very long time, I had trouble actually "feeling it" (letting it in) because it's hard for me to let myself be that vulnerable, and I have not asked for another hug, though I hope that in time I might be able to ask for one and feel it.

I'd be very willing not to post about physical touch or any other subject that would detrimentally affect someone else's therapy. I would much rather refrain than to have you feel unhappy and reluctant to read and participate on the board.

[ECHOES]

Oh no! Don't stop posting from your hearts. It's the only way. I'm sorry if my post from my heart made anyone feel bad. I'm not sorry the warm and wonderful posts are here at all !! everyone.

I didn't plan to, but I took ya'll to therapy with me today. I hope that's okay and you had a good session too. hehe. I told her about my post and we talked about the wishes and fantasies I have, that I must resent her for not offering those things. It continued our discussion last week about how connections can be overwhelming and engulfing... how they can be great up to a point then it feels like I lose autonomy and then it doesnt' feel so good.

She even wanted to know if I received replies to my post so I told her what I could remember. I really wished I'd had prints because you all said so many things wise and kind and supportive.

It was a great session and I never even considered mentioning the post. Just goes to show ya..

ya everyone!

[cmac13]

My therapist will hug me if I ask her to. Last week at the end of a difficult session she asked me if I needed a hug. I said yes. I told her I feel safe with her and she said she wants me to feel safe. I have alot of issues around attachement and abandonment issues. She is very maternal and that is what I need a lot of.

[mightaswelllive]

It's hard for me to even imagine T offering a hug. She knows I'm terrified of touch though so I don't think it would ever happen anyway. I recall my old T giving me a hug on our last session and it was terribly uncomfortable for me. Though I must admit, the idea of a hug from T is better than the idea of the average hug.

[cmac13]

Touch is a major issue for me also - I can barely go to a doctor of any kind because of it. I also needed to make sure I had a female therapist when I first began treatment. My therapist is very cognizant of the issues I have around touch and would never violate my trust. I am especially greatful to her sensitivity. She is open to me sitting next to her in a session if I need to. She will put her arm around me if i ask. So it's cool to have someone who is not rigid but is open minded to what works for me.