[lisadhum1]

I was speaking with my husband's therapist and due to the situation with him everyone is trying to tip-toe around HIPAA so I am getting some answers but nothing direct. Well, I was telling her everything that went on and her and I know each other I used to see her before my husband did... when I told her about my pursuit of guardianship and getting my husband in the hospital she said that she felt I was getting in over my head and that when my husband's records are subpoenaed for court that there are things that "will not look favourable for you" and then she said she feels I could take care of my husband and she would write a letter stating so but that comment worries me. I explained I love my husband and I am doing this to help him like he asked of me and she said there is no place for love in mental illness and that she thinks I might be more heart broken with the end result.

Then she said I was taking my husband's rights away and as someone who's talking with NAMI that I should know it's not about that! I don't feel like I am taking his rights away, I want him to get to a place where he can understand his rights and make decisions about that and his life in a rational state of mind. Am I wrong?

hi lisa. i have read both of your other threads and i do wonder if it might be good to give your h a bit of space to work things out on his own. i know you mentioned he is quite afraid of confrontation and i wonder if giving him some room to breath might be good for him. he may feel a bit like a cornered animal right now with you and the authorities chasing him. i'm sorry, i know that's probably not what you want to hear but as someone who has also dealt with the fear of confrontation i am not sure your present course of action is going to help your relationship or him in the long run. sometimes people just need a bit of space and then dialog can happen later when they feel safer. jmo.

[perpetuallysad]

Lisa, I too have read your other threads and I can appreciate your fear and desires to help. I can also appreciate that at some time in the past your husband has asked you to help him/take care of him if things get bad, but perhaps he is in a place where he no longer desires that? I mean, is he is a continuous psychotic episode? If not, he should be allowed to make his own decisions. I don't know what state you live in, but I know that here in MS, it is extremely hard to take someone's rights away, even if they have deteriorating mental health. And I've actually personally gone through this process with a friend who was trying (though I believe wrongly) to have her mother's rights given to her because she has early onset Alzheimer's. Anyway, even after many examples of her doing what appear to others as irrational things, the judge was not inclined to have her basically be treated as a child or a prisoner and she (the judge) actually tore my friend up for assuming she could "do better" for her mother than her mother was doing for herself. I guess what I am trying to say is that just because he's bipolar and doing things that may be "bad" in your opinion, it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to make his own medical decisions. Unless he's a danger to other people, I really don't see why, just because he chose to leave his home and life, he should be forcibly put into the hospital or have you take over his ability to make decisions for him.

Also, no offense truly, because I know you are suffering and trying to do what you feel is the right thing, but if I found out my doctor's were revealing something to my spouse that I hadn't authorized, I would sue their asses off and would be furious at my spouse for manipulating the system like that. HIPPA laws are actually in place for a reason and no one should be skirting them, regardless of what rights you feel you should have, but he didn't grant to you. If they are willing to skirt these LAWS what other things will the fudge on?

Also, this is just a techincal thing I noticed in your blog post, but hypomania is actually a milder form of mania, not a worse form. It still sucks, regardless, but hypomania usually doesn't include psychosis.

hypomanic - A mild, nonpsychotic form of mania, characterized by increased levels of energy, physical activity, and talkativeness.

http://www.google.com/url?ei=HzU9TKy...hSi9uwo1_ohmMw

I say all of this from the perspective of a person with bipolar who does do things that others don't agree with, but certainly wouldn't want my rights to be taken away because I did that.

I know these things I've said may sound harsh, but I honestly don't mean them that way. I just hope that you do see that sometimes the best of intentions still lead to the wrong actions and outcomes.

[Rhiannonsmoon]

This must be so awful for you Lisa, and for him too feeling hunted will bring out paranoia and anger.

I've been wondering how to answer this within the boundaries of which I know I must keep. It would have been best not to create a confrontation at his work place because it just made him run.

I know you want the best for him, he wants the best for him too, and what is best for him may not be what you think is best for him though you are acting outof love.

I really feel for both of you and I wonder where this will end up.I just hope for the best possible outcome for you both; as Bloom has pointed out he is afraid of confrontation; he may be exhibiting anger because he feels pursued?

Just know that you have support through this and if possible ask for help from Doc John before you make your next move. This has ballooned out into something that was not foreseen so giving advice in this instance is a lot more complicated than just support,



Rhiannon

[Perna]

Originally Posted by lisadhum1

I don't feel like I am taking his rights away

That's the crux of it I think; it's not about what you feel; guardianship does, in fact, take his rights away. That you are chasing after him and trying to wrestle him to the ground almost like he's a calf must look "odd" to many I think because my impression is that most guardians are reluctant guardians, it's very hard, heart-breaking work.

If you are successful, I don't think your husband will thank you, I would resent you, well or not, that I was "owned" by you and had to do what you say, despite what I say. I don't see any way to get back to "even", loving ground. If you are not successful, you could become depressed and bitter, especially at the "system".

[lisadhum1]

I don't want to make decisions for him I just want to be able to get answers. He has had no problem in the past keeping me in the loop, we worked together. Should I just accept his disappearance and forget I was ever married to him? Would that make you guys feel better? I'm sorry, I am not a robot with no emotions who can just not deal with my situation. Am I supposed to just move on like nothing happened and wait for him to end up dead or come home?

@ perpetuallysad: I'm sorry that you and your husband don't trust each other enough to tell each other everything and share in health concerns. How sad. I am not offended, I am disgusted. I am already bitter with the system so how I feel now or later isn't going to matter.

[Perna]

I don't hurt like you do and what I want doesn't matter. I do, in fact, want a better situation for you, but am powerless to effect that.

I understand your desire for answers but there may not be any and it is answers about someone else so doubly hard to get, especially with the someone else not cooperating. The only one who can supply the answers, you are trying to force the answers from him. That can't work.

I believe you are hopeful the hospital/doctors can "fix" him but that's unlikely if he does not cooperate. There is no drug(s) that can make him think/feel a certain way, even "rationally". Drugs and doctors do not make us well, they help relieve symptoms that may bother us and, in some illnesses, they might help our body fight better so it can heal us. That's a catch-22 as side effects and consequences of some drugs can make us ill in some other area. But there is the whole you-can't-step-in-the-river-at-the-same-place thing too; your husband's experiences now have changed him and it's anybody's guess, how. Again, only he can answer that.

Were I you, I would step back from the situation a little bit, for myself. As you've noted, your friends have left you. It is natural I think to look at the friends as being the ones with the problem but I always try to look at my surroundings and if everyone else is saying the other thing, going the other way, even people I know/trust like my former therapist, that makes me pause and rethink. "Everyone else" rarely has the problem?

I know you love your husband and I admire your dedication to him but I think you are hurting yourself in how you are trying to help him by subsuming yourself, using yourself up, to help him in the way you believe he needs help. Do you wish to be a martyr? Is that what you want for your life? That's an odd role to take, if you think about it. It's even odder when you realize that no one else sees it that way. He does not believe he needs help in that way and all his former friends and helpers do not believe it.

Sometimes backing off and letting them work things out for themselves is a better option. If you push too hard you can push people away.

[perpetuallysad]

Actually Lisa, I was using a hypothetical situation. I didn't say that I wouldn't allow my husband to have my HIPPA information, but I did say that any medical professional giving out information without the patient's consent is wrong. And that it's illegal. So when his therapist is telling you that a judge is going to think you've done things wrong, that is probably one of the things they will not look kindly upon. YOU know it's wrong to be given that information, therefore you shouldn't be taking it. Also, you seem to be bitter with the system because it is trying to prevent you from taking over your husband's rights. I am glad that as screwed up as our legal and medical systems are that there is some attempt to preserve each individual's rights to remain an individual and not the ward of someone who believes they know best. Thankfully the system is trying to allow your husband to remain an individual. Just because someone's mentally ill doesn't mean they should lose the rights to govern themselves and their own lives.

[lisadhum1]

I'm not saying my friends have the problems, well to an extent yes because they refuse to support my decision not to divorce my husband BUT I am in no way blaming any of them. The people we associated ourselves with do not deal with mental illness or anything of a serious nature in a close proximity, none of them want to be involved especially with mental illness issues and it's partly the stigma and yes the consumption of the situation. I had stepped back during that month he went missing and to me it felt like I was the worst wife ever because I wasn't doing whatever I could to help him.

I KNOW I have a lot to learn and figure out and I know he can't be fixed but I firmly believe he can get the proper treatment which 5 weeks ago he wanted and when he gets to a place, if he does, that's more rational I definitely feel I can back off... it's like, for a few years I knew what is dx was but neither of us took it seriously and the days where I had to force him to shower because he soiled himself or brush his teeth or change his clothes... I've taken care of him this way for so long on a daily basis that not taking care of him feels like hell to me. I know there is a gray area to all of this but right now it feels just black and white.

[lisadhum1]

Originally Posted by perpetuallysad

Actually Lisa, I was using a hypothetical situation. I didn't say that I wouldn't allow my husband to have my HIPPA information, but I did say that any medical professional giving out information without the patient's consent is wrong. And that it's illegal. So when his therapist is telling you that a judge is going to think you've done things wrong, that is probably one of the things they will not look kindly upon. YOU know it's wrong to be given that information, therefore you shouldn't be taking it. Also, you seem to be bitter with the system because it is trying to prevent you from taking over your husband's rights. I am glad that as screwed up as our legal and medical systems are that there is some attempt to preserve each individual's rights to remain an individual and not the ward of someone who believes they know best. Thankfully the system is trying to allow your husband to remain an individual. Just because someone's mentally ill doesn't mean they should lose the rights to govern themselves and their own lives.

Okay, so should I let my husband walk around with **** in his shorts because it's his right? I am bitter with the system because it's not working with me. As a spouse I should have certain rights that exclude privacy if it means ensuring my husband's safety and health. I always make sure he feels he has dignity but it's to the point where extreme measures need to be taken.

[perpetuallysad]

I'm honestly not trying to argue with you. Using examples like him having soiled himself as a reason why you should become his guardian is, at best, emotional manipulation and points to nothing that validly should give you the right to make his decisions. I am not saying it's a good thing to not clean yourself, but I am saying that taking a person's rights away should sincerely be the absolute LAST thing anyone should do or allow another person to do.

As far as the privacy laws, they are actually in place specifically because people (however related) feel they have some entitlement to private information about someone else. The fact is that you don't have the "right" to this information. It seems to me, whenever he originally started seeing his therapist he would have given HIPPA consent if he wanted you to have it. And, as you have not indicated whether he's still in the midst of a psychotic episode, I would assume that he's choosing now to not allow you to have access to his private information. Spouse and trust and all that are great, but everyone, regardless of how they are related to whomever deserves to have privacy and deserves to make their own medical decisions.

[lisadhum1]

It IS a last resort. It's not manipulation, it's helping him because this way I can talk to his doctors if an emergency situation arises like it has. Why don't you look up NAMI and inform yourself about something called "the quality of life". I am improving his quality by not allowing him to sleep on the street, become sick or get rashes because he cannot clean himself at times, that I can be advocate for him when he cannot make such rational decisions. I'm not going to chain him up and tell him to dance on command. Clearly you have no idea of what guardianship consists of. I do not have to continue to share anymore examples with you but I will say I wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion and the fact that I care enough to do this instead of throwing my husband away like it has been suggested says a hell of a lot. I married him in sickness and in health for better and worse and I honor my husband's request to help him and to help him to be the best man he can be, so he has dignity.

[perpetuallysad]

I really do know what guardianship means, if you had read my initial response to your post, you would see that I've actually gone through the guardianship process with a friend (I went to lawyers, court, doctors, everything with her and her mom) so I do know what it consists of. The thing is that you don't seem to understand, despite your personal desires, is that he is a human adult in the United States of America and therefore he is entitled to run his own life until he does things so bad that there is no other choice. I didn't say you were going to make him dance on demand, but maybe you aren't willing to accept the fact that he doesn't want to be with you. I've had situations where I not longer loved/wanted to be with people and I am sure my "change of heart" appeared abrupt to them. I know that I have had people "try to fight for me" when I just didn't want them in my life anymore. It wasn't out of some meanness or something, I just couldn't do it with them around anymore. See, if at those times they would have attempted to become my guardian, I would have been forced to remain with them when it was MY CHOICE to remain apart from them. I know that you are hurting but it doesn't appear as though you are taking into consideration that your husband, regardless of his illness, is actually allowed to change his mind. Maybe, as you have pointed out in other posts, he has changed and really do not want to be with you any longer? Forcing yourself onto him and into his life isn't doing a bit to help him and actually probably hurts and angers him. Look, I am going to try to refrain from posting anymore here on this thread, because I am not trying to mess with you, but I do want you to know that while his life effects you, it isn't yours. Its his. A lot of people make their marriage vows and then later on realize they don't want to stay. They aren't written in stone. He's allow to change and leave if he wants. He told you (according to all your posts) he wanted help a few months ago and now says he doesn't want your help. Just because you don't want to accept that, doesn't mean it's not true.

wow, i'm rather dismayed at the direction this thread has gone after i posted. lisa, i wasn't saying that i think you should do nothing but just to slow down a bit as having someone committed to a hospital against their will is a rather serious measure to take. i don't doubt for a minute that you care about your husband very much. i'll be honest that your posts weren't indicating to me that he definitely needed to be committed. you said your husband left you and was staying at a friend's and had gotten a job. that just doesn't sound terribly unstable to me. also, you mentioned that he did go to the ER with you to see if he was manic. since he was released i'm assuming they didn't think he was in a manic state or a danger to himself or others. that doesn't mean your husband may not be having an adverse reaction to a med but it doesn't sound as serious as someone needing to be committed against their will. i'm sure you are horribly distressed that your husband has left you but it does seem your actions are rather frantic at this point.

i did see on another thread you mentioned that your husband has been apprehended so i'm assuming he is in a hospital now. maybe you can tell us how we can support you at this time. it must be quite upsetting to have your husband walk out and now be in the hospital not knowing what mental state he's in or what will happen to him or your marriage in the future.

Neither commitments nor guardianships are automatic. Most commitment statutes require the court to consider the least restrictive alternative to inpatient treatment if inpatient treatment is not necessary. There are also limited guardianships. The court determines what powers the guardian will be able to exercise when a full guardianship is contraindicated.

What is particularly troublesome to me is the therapist has treated both Lisa and her husband. The therapist has a conflict of interest, unless the conflict was knowingly waived. Most states have a therapist/client privilege. The privilege is waived by law as to the principle in the commitment or guardianship proceedings.

The therapist has already told Lisa there are things in her file the therapist believes would disqualify her from being her husband's guardian. The therapist would not have that information if Lisa had not been a client. There is something wrong when a therapist uses privileged information from the treatment of a former client against her in a proceeding involving a current client.

Some time needs to pass to determine if the husband needs treatment and is prepared to cooperate in the treatment. There are strict time limits in commitment proceedings. Soon there will be some answers.

[lisadhum1]

Well... let's see at this point he believes that I printed up fake court documents and tricked the police into picking him up, he says he isn't Bipolar nor does he have a heart condition, he said that I am the one with a mental illness and that he doesn't love me. His Cardiologist has been looking for him, my husband said he wasn't because he doesn't have a cardiologist... trust me, there is A LOT of stuff that I didn't post that is more personal. Leading the police on a chase through 3 counties... denying he was in a psych hospital. My husband needs help and I am not doing anything out of malice or to control him or to take away his rights. I am trying to improve the quality of his life.He had a home, a bed... now he's living in filth on couch, stopped taking his insulin and all meds.... he wanted to be a radiologist and now his big dream is rollin' dogs behind a grill at Target???

...and yes something is wrong with that therapist, now she refuses to talk to me in any capacity because I brought up NAMI to her. I then had my own therapist I just started seeing tell me that there is nothing wrong with my husband other than he has poor judgment and hygiene and that if I can't accept him for how he is I shouldn't be married to him.

I can't slow down because this is all wrong. Not just my story but everyone's. If we were talking about cancer or MS or whatever the game would be played differently but mental illness is still taboo and nobody wants to deal with it how it should be dealt with. I'm ****ing tired of it!! I have never been on to sit quietly and do nothing and I don't care what I have to do to get my husband the help he needs... I will not sit by and watch him slowly die or kill himself like he's tried several times before. I will not ****ing do it!

A lot of this could be cleared up if you husband was evaluated by a professional.

[Justthetruth]

I believe in love with people with mental illiness. They need love just like everybody else. No matter who they fall in love with people that mite not have a mental Disorder.

[lisadhum1]

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

A lot of this could be cleared up if you husband was evaluated by a professional.

Yep, that's why I'm taking him to court. It also would be cleared up if he was in a right state of mind and just talked to me instead of making me the enemy. That is the worst part of all of this... the waiting and the lack of professionals help. I should make a correction, the therapist did say I may have some unfavourable issues that would prevent me from being a guardian to my husband but she did offer to write a letter to the judge stating I would make a good guardian for someone who is mentally ill... just not my husband. I don't even get that.

Is the court proceeding one for the appointment of a guardian?