It's nearly 3.30am here in the UK.. and had another row. I can't sleep while he sleeps peacefully as too cross.

So we've just had another row about house keeping & the way he treats me. I do all of it - all the cleaning, cooking, washing, shopping as I have much more time on my hands. All I ask of him is to pick up his own mess - ie, a soda can he's just finished with, to put it in the bin (which is next to the sofa!!) rather than keep leaving it on the sofa for the last bits to spill on, to pick up his clothes, any rubbish he creates to put in the bin, put diy tools away when he's finished a job (we together are doing up a small Victorian house). You get the picture.

I am not a sickly sweet person, and will not keep asking nicely for something I shouldn't even have to ask for if it get's me nowhere and I also refuse to clean up after him - he's 48, not 8. After years of this, me reminding politely to put things in the bin, making jokes about tying a bin under his nose etc, I am now at the stage where I ask nicely once, then I am very short. All I get is sarcasm. Sarcasm and more sarcasm. Then another row erupts. I have just been told that I am controlling his life, that I am a bully, that I am not happy unless he is doing what I want. All for asking him to clean up his mess for goodness sake! That made me see red - and he complained about my response that I just got mad. Yes, I shouldn't lose my rag, but being told that am a bully or controlling just because I asked him to clear away his own rubbish just made me lose it. Told him that I am his partner, not his mother and quite frankly that hurt that he blames me for everything and that he is the perpetual victim. Now I am no Sherlock Holmes, but surely the easiest way to stop me 'bullying' is to simply pick up after himself like any adult should?

Thing is, I know tomorrow will bring another conversation where we apologise to each other, say's he's wrong with his behaviour then he asks me to remind him to do stuff because of his (I suspect selective) bad memory, and yet I know when I do, I will just get the sarcasm once again because he thinks I am trying to rule his life. Classed as a no-win situation? It's been happening for the last few years. It would be a lot easier to forgive, but he's getting sullen, withdrawn but I guess he would be if he thinks I am a bully. Doesn't listen to me - I can say something and he doesn't hear a word of it - and the only thing he is really happy about is his punk music and bands, comedy or something fun - then he is animated, happy, and chats no end so I don't think he's really that depressed. - oh, and doesn't forget a thing when it's something that interests him either!

When I do make light conversation about his day, or whatever, I get short answers, both in length and temperament. I've helped him out with some huge issues in his life, and I used to do a lot for him to make him smile too, a little thoughtful thing or something to make his life easier and those started to get no response so I have slowed those down. What's the point putting myself out for no enjoyment of being thanked and seeing someone happy? It sapped every ounce of fun out of it.

I am feeling wrong footed all the time now - if I talk to him he is unresponsive or defensive, I don't feel loved or even liked with the vicious sarcasm and he certainly gives me no consideration. He of course, denies all this and says he loves me - but I find it hard to believe. Any other situation like this I would take his attitude towards me as someone who's not into me anymore but too afraid to face up to it - I nearly left last year and he was very upset which seemed genuine and I stayed. He wasn't like this for the first few years, but it seems to be getting worse. He had cognitive therapy last year because of self-esteem issues all his life, which he loved and gave him a real boost, (wonderful to see a spring in his step!) but it seems that he's forgotten all of that now. If I remind him of something he said about his therapy, he now denies it and walks away.

What do you think? Housekeeping is an issue, but I really think there is much more underneath. Mainly that he doesn't want me, but as always in his life, he doesn't like change, apathetic or is in denial.

Sorry this is a ramble, I got carried away.

[hamster-bamster]

Just a sec. I am here, listening and empathizing, but it would take me a while to write up a coherent response, so bear with me.

[hamster-bamster]

So I am extremely messy and I do find it hard to pick up after myself. Right now, nobody cares, because I do not let people who do care about such stuff and criticize me into my life any more. Ex H...

... used to say that I abused our daughters and harmed them for life by not teaching them to pick up clothes strewn on the floor in their bedrooms... and by setting a bad example...

... to some extent, he is right in that I did harm them for life - I did not teach them a valuable skill, just as my mother who was messy did not teach me a valuable skill, so I agree with him...

...at the same time, I disagree that I abused them by doing this - I mean, I breastfed those girls for years on end, washed their cloth diapers myself, took them to the local public library almost daily, and... you get the point - I was NOT your typical abusive mother, if such a stereotype exists.

But what I am saying is that yes, it IS difficult to pick up after yourself if you are not in the habit of picking up after yourself. It IS objectively difficult. What seems automatic to you is difficult for him. It could be that you are picking up after yourself on auto-pilot, whereas for him, it is work. Hence you are not seeing eye to eye.

TBA - I am posting in bits, just to make sure you know you are not alone at night in the UK, but somebody is listening in California.

[hamster-bamster]

So... there is a book by Rhona Mahony, called "Kidding Ourselves".

It is a piece of feminist scholarship. It is a great read, even though it is a scholarly book.

While it is about women with children, there is a point in that book that applies to your situation.

[hamster-bamster]

The point is that the simplest solution to housekeeping wars is to hire a housekeeper.

So what I recommend you do is this:

- tell him that you feel resentful having to do more than your fair share

- tell him that you love him and want the relationship to work, and thus want to nip that resentment in the bud (which is not entirely correct given that it has lasted for years, but just for the sake of a figure of speech)

- tell him that you want more free time for yourself and that you won't tell him to pick up his stuff but you do want to outsource some of housekeeping so that you get time for yourself; of course we all know that he is WRONG when he says that your telling him to pick up his stuff is controlling, but still... promise him that you will stop...

- see what he says.

Even if it does not get you anywhere because you cannot afford outsourcing, it would still be a helpful conversation, because in the course of that conversation, you will, essentially, remind him that your services have value. They are not free. He is free-riding. Well, he is a big boy and should not be free-riding on you.

[RoseBee]

To build on what Hamster-Bamster is saying, if you can't afford a housekeeper, then ask him to do one thing. Ask him to please make sure his soda cans make it into the bin, or when you remind him, please don't pick on you because you are just trying to do what he asked. It's how I trained my ExH to do a lot of things like laundry, dishes, etc. When he does the desired behavior praise him...kinda like training a puppy. I am pretty sure you've already tried that, but it was worth a shot. Hang in there. There are people awake and listening.

[unaluna]

My dad just cleaned up after my mom. All she did was the laundry, he did everything else. And still she complained about it. I wish I could find a deal like hers. Now that he's gone, everything is all over the place. Only the tops of the dishes get washed.

[Inedible]

As soon as he sees why the soda cans should go in the bin, he will put them there without prompting. Unfortunately I don't know how to make him see it for himself.

Sometimes sarcasm masks hurt feelings. If you come at someone a million miles per hour to do their room or pick up some rubbish, they will feel bullied into doing it.

Maybe it would be better to draw up a schedule of housework that you are both to do. This would show him that his portion of the housework is small compared to yours, and also there would be no 'forgetting' whether real or not.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

So I am extremely messy and I do find it hard to pick up after myself. Right now, nobody cares, because I do not let people who do care about such stuff and criticize me into my life any more. Ex H...

... used to say that I abused our daughters and harmed them for life by not teaching them to pick up clothes strewn on the floor in their bedrooms... and by setting a bad example...

... to some extent, he is right in that I did harm them for life - I did not teach them a valuable skill, just as my mother who was messy did not teach me a valuable skill, so I agree with him...

...at the same time, I disagree that I abused them by doing this - I mean, I breastfed those girls for years on end, washed their cloth diapers myself, took them to the local public library almost daily, and... you get the point - I was NOT your typical abusive mother, if such a stereotype exists.

But what I am saying is that yes, it IS difficult to pick up after yourself if you are not in the habit of picking up after yourself. It IS objectively difficult. What seems automatic to you is difficult for him. It could be that you are picking up after yourself on auto-pilot, whereas for him, it is work. Hence you are not seeing eye to eye.

TBA - I am posting in bits, just to make sure you know you are not alone at night in the UK, but somebody is listening in California.

Thanks hamster, for your posts! I know that our parents can influence us with our habits - but his parents are very tidy. And when he visits his Pop, he cleans up after himself unprompted - even wipes off every last water drop from the sink after he washes up! So he's been bought up a clean boy. When I say this to him, he just says 'well, it's what they do, so I respect their way of cleaning'. Ha!

I like the idea of a housekeeper, but it will start another row but I will say it anyway! I don't mind doing more than my fair share with every day chores because he has a reasonably long day , but only at the moment while I have the time. I just object to his laziness of things like coke cans & wrappers. He's a slob at home. I used to clean up those bits too and only pick my moments to raise it (when it started to get to me) but now I just refuse. I am considering collecting his rubbish over a week and just shoving it on top of his stereo. That may get the message over.... mind you, I left everything he left on the sofa for a fortnight, and he didn't notice, despite it piled up high.

I don't mind a bit of mess, I am not a show-room type of person, I liked a lived-in house, but I do object to not being able to sit down on the sofa because too much rubbish and there's no room or it's sticky with coke!

Originally Posted by Illegal Toilet

Sometimes sarcasm masks hurt feelings. If you come at someone a million miles per hour to do their room or pick up some rubbish, they will feel bullied into doing it.

Maybe it would be better to draw up a schedule of housework that you are both to do. This would show him that his portion of the housework is small compared to yours, and also there would be no 'forgetting' whether real or not.

Ahh... that's what he says now. Its the way I ask. But I always ask nicely first, and he ignores it. I don't think I should have to baby someone or be on tippy-toes when in reality, I shouldn't have to ask in the first place, and it shouldn't be an issue. He's a grown man. Yesterday for example, we had friends over for a BBQ and I was tidying up before they arrived. So I asked him to move his rubbish off the sofa, nicely 2 times. Then on the 3rd nice time he moved it - and simply placed it on the floor. So yes, I did come over as stern when I asked him to please put the stuff away properly but that's the 4th time I mentioned it. I admit, I do not have the patience of a saint, but really, 4 times?

I also like the schedule, but I do it all and he knows this. I will do a schedule when I get more work as am not working full time at the moment. This isn't the source of resentment on my behalf, it really is just the rubbish he leaves which sadly can be at any time of the day. He tells me once he's put something down he doesn't 'see' it anymore and it just stays there. Forever. I have endless excuses from him why he doesn't do things anymore. I say there is no excuse, it's just lack of effort. I am not the tidiest, but even I know that a coke can, an snotty tissue, a sweet wrapper, a oily takeaway wrapper etc goes in the bin and not the sofa.

Anyway, thankyou for taking the time out to write, I really appreciate yours and everyone's replies.

Originally Posted by RoseBee

To build on what Hamster-Bamster is saying, if you can't afford a housekeeper, then ask him to do one thing. Ask him to please make sure his soda cans make it into the bin, or when you remind him, please don't pick on you because you are just trying to do what he asked. It's how I trained my ExH to do a lot of things like laundry, dishes, etc. When he does the desired behavior praise him...kinda like training a puppy. I am pretty sure you've already tried that, but it was worth a shot. Hang in there. There are people awake and listening.

Yeah, I do say that to him and he does go quiet because he knows he's putting me in a no-win situation. But he soon forgets and get's a strop next time. Oh, when I do praise him, he says I am being sarcastic and I have to defend my praise and insist that no, not being sarcastic, I just appreciate his help and wanted to say thanks. Arghh!

Thankyou

[bowooden]

Originally Posted by riotgrrrl

Thanks hamster, for your posts! I know that our parents can influence us with our habits - but his parents are very tidy. And when he visits his Pop, he cleans up after himself unprompted - even wipes off every last water drop from the sink after he washes up! So he's been bought up a clean boy. When I say this to him, he just says 'well, it's what they do, so I respect their way of cleaning'. Ha!

I like the idea of a housekeeper, but it will start another row but I will say it anyway! I don't mind doing more than my fair share with every day chores because he has a reasonably long day , but only at the moment while I have the time. I just object to his laziness of things like coke cans & wrappers. He's a slob at home. I used to clean up those bits too and only pick my moments to raise it (when it started to get to me) but now I just refuse. I am considering collecting his rubbish over a week and just shoving it on top of his stereo. That may get the message over.... mind you, I left everything he left on the sofa for a fortnight, and he didn't notice, despite it piled up high.

I don't mind a bit of mess, I am not a show-room type of person, I liked a lived-in house, but I do object to not being able to sit down on the sofa because too much rubbish and there's no room or it's sticky with coke!

My wife is the same way. I always pick up after her and half the time she doesn't even know she is making a mess. When we go out of state to visit her family she gets mad at me for laying on top on the blanket! She made the bed and vacuum the floor was the dishes and even asked if I could wash her moms car!......which I don't mind but it was a vacation. I thought by giving up and just doing everything would make it better but all I did was mask my real emotion and resented her every time I would find her socks under our dining room table.

[hamster-bamster]

well sure, and with his record of being on his best behavior at this parents' house, surely your indignation is more than justified!

We had our usual next day conversation. Apparently it doesn't matter now what I say, he thinks I am nagging him or telling him what to do. He has been snippy with me for a long time now, over totally innocent things, and he admitted that he now looks for things, presumes the worst no matter what it is.

So along the line we've lost the ability to communicate. And now, a few hours later, he's doing the normal feeling sorry for himself, and blaming everything on himself. Ugh. Heard it too many times now, though I didn't say that to him! I just wish he'd stop this feeling sorry for himself because he then blames me for feeling bad and around we go.

I asked him tonight to please talk whenever I say something that may be upsetting him, and let me explain what I meant or if need be, apologise if rude. It seems that even the most innocent of comments, even unrelated to housework, or something where I have a valid reason behind it, ie, to move something of his that is heavy so I can do DIY, or pick up his laundry from all over the house because I need to do some washing - he's just thinking I am being naggy or horrible and that's why he's mean and unhelpful. I told him I rarely mean anything to be nasty, and that's the truth - occasionally I get exasperated but his skin is so thin due to his self-esteem issues that it's going to be hard working through this. It's actually got to the stage no matter what I do or say, I am apparently out to get him. I just can't be on tippy toes - most of these issues are his. My issue is that I am no longer keeping quiet or being delicate 100% of the time. I do not have the patience.

Tiresome, dull and I think this is the last go at this relationship with me. After than all I have is to either put up and shut up or move on. With his selective memory being bad, and what I know is a deep belief that he is never wrong that I think this is not fixable. It doesn't matter what he said tonight because nothing changes and we just have the same issues over and over again. He just says what he thinks I want to hear.

Thanks again for replies earlier today. x

Originally Posted by bowooden

My wife is the same way. I always pick up after her and half the time she doesn't even know she is making a mess. When we go out of state to visit her family she gets mad at me for laying on top on the blanket! She made the bed and vacuum the floor was the dishes and even asked if I could wash her moms car!......which I don't mind but it was a vacation. I thought by giving up and just doing everything would make it better but all I did was mask my real emotion and resented her every time I would find her socks under our dining room table.

What does she say when you talk about it? Be interested to know if you don't mind.

Hugs.

[RoseBee]

How was it today, Riotgrrrl?